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Thread: Altitude rules

  1. #1

    Default Altitude rules

    We don‘t have altitude rules.

    In the first scenario altitude level 2 is needed for a picture.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  2. #2

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    That, and Black Smoke blocks Line of Sight, and can be hit by planes, up to Altitude 2, planes at Altitude 3-4 are unaffected.

    Really nothing about Heat-rays and altitude, either. One could assume a half ruler at Altitude 2? Did anyone read anything different?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    Hmm...

    Maybe it's analog to the normal rules.

    So Tripods are on level 1 and can fire up to level 2 with half range
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  4. #4

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    I do not plan to play T&T with altitude at all. Fighting tripods must have taken place on very low altitude by default. The tallest one is 14m height.
    There will be neither enemy planes, nor enemy arty, so playing with altitude makes little sense.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  5. #5

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    Ok, but for bombing you need a min. altitude level.

    Low flight attack is more heroic.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Ok, but for bombing you need a min. altitude level.

    Low flight attack is more heroic.
    Absolutely. But as far as I am familiar with the rules there are no bombing rules for bombing tripods...
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Absolutely. But as far as I am familiar with the rules there are no bombing rules for bombing tripods...
    In the Invasion Rule book, there should be bombing rules. Page Three. Altitude is not mentioned in the Tripod rules, so one would have to reference the WWI RAP rules for how to bomb with altitude.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #8

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    Invasion rules page 3.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Absolutely. But as far as I am familiar with the rules there are no bombing rules for bombing tripods...
    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    In the Invasion Rule book, there should be bombing rules. Page Three. Altitude is not mentioned in the Tripod rules, so one would have to reference the WWI RAP rules for how to bomb with altitude.
    The invasion rules are in with the map Andy

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    Correct, I have not checked the whole stuff thoroughly enough. My fault.
    Just played the first T&T game tonight - lots of impressions!
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  11. #11

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    I assure you chaps, there is so much to care of when you drive a tripod, that adding alt might be too embarrassing in a way.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    I assure you chaps, there is so much to care of when you drive a tripod, that adding alt might be too embarrassing in a way.
    For them for sure, they do not fly, yet . . . .

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    For them for sure, they do not fly, yet . . . .
    ...yes...I did not mean that.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  14. #14

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    We ran into altitude questions in our monthly club game yesterday...in relation to Line of Sight and Collisions. We were playing with no altitude, so that meant Black Smoke 'worked' all the time. The LoS rules are pretty cut and dried in the T&T rules, and for collisions, we house rule that plane [B]pegs[B] have to overlap bases at the end of the movement phase for there to be actual damage drawn. Usually when we play 'no altitude', we do not count collisions...but we did yesterday, for some reason...(perhaps Martian Mind Control was at work)

    BUT, if 'no altitude' means no collisions, then it should also mean no LoS restrictions, right? And the T&T rules only mention altitude in conjunction with the Black Smoke rule (with a reference to the RAP pack). Using varying altitude would alleviate collision questions and LoS issues, but there is no mention of firing restrictions on tripods or planes (other than the oblique reference to the RAP which lays out the effects of altitude and firing plane-on-plane). So we think we want to add altitude into our T&T games, since we use it almost all the time in our regular gaming - it really adds so much to the regular game, we think. Our discussion was resolved with a decision to treat planes at ALT 1 and 2 as using range as normal, with close range giving 2 cards and long range giving 1 card. For planes at ALT 3 or 4 we are going to use the normal 'differing altitude' rules, so that ALT 3 and 4 planes have to be at short range to inflict 1 damage card on a tripod. As for tripods firing at planes at different altitudes, for now we will use the tripod firing rules as is with no range penalty for firing at planes flying at ALT 3 or 4 (due to the awesome power of the Heat-Ray...)

    We will try this the next time we get together to play T&T. I will report back on the results!

    All the best,
    Matt

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    ... Usually when we play 'no altitude', we do not count collisions...but we did yesterday, for some reason...
    BUT, if 'no altitude' means no collisions, then it should also mean no LoS restrictions, right? ...
    I'd say wrong - I'd disagree with that. Whilst no collision allows planes to slip past eachother who is to say that the position of the target aircraft is not masked by the intervening one ?
    The assumption that the firing model is slightly above or below the intervening machine thereby allowing a shot past it ignores the tenet that the target model may be also be slightly above or below the intervening machine and therefore masked from the attacker. Just my thought.

    "He is wise who watches"

  16. #16

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    I think what you say makes sense for plane-on-plane firing/LoS, Dave - I should have been clearer... The LoS issues we were having involved plane-on-tripod/LoS - with a stationary or slowly moving target on the ground, I think the 'slighty above or slightly below the intervening machine' concept might fall away. If a plane is jinking one way or another to avoid collision, then I think maybe it could be jinking one way or another to get a shot in on a tripod ahead of and below it.

    I will take your ideas to our next meet-up and see what the chaps think. More to come as we wrestle with the rules and getting used to the ins and outs of The Invasion!

    All the best,
    Matt

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    ... The LoS issues we were having involved plane-on-tripod...
    Ach so ! That makes more sense now Matt - you might want to consider setting a distance between the firer & the intervening aircraft - eg you can only shoot past if the intervening aircraft is in short range.

    "He is wise who watches"

  18. #18

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    With myself, I was getting confused with the altitude rules with the Tripods. If I overlap a tripod can I still shoot at it????? Since it is considered a very large machine, would shooting at it be possible with base overlap? If we do altitude rules, which I would like to do, at what altitude would you collide with the tripod? I flipped through the rules again and the only reference I found to altitude was with the black smoke. Did I miss something?

    The tripods are a blast to play with! Would love to get more aspects such as altitude, land obstructions and tripod topple, and so forth as we get more familiar. Maybe even a two seater with bombs for the heck of it!

  19. #19

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    Not a bad idea, Dave - that would make it similar to firing to the rear with an observer...short range directly behind is in the blind spot - long range lets your observer hit the tailing plane...

    I agree we need to add more into the Tripods games, Dan - we can come up with some house rules that will cover what the published rules do not. Perhaps with altitude, your plane could actually run into a tripod at ALT 1 or 2... I think the toppling situation with walkers and terrain will add a whole 'nother dimension to play. It could really channel the tripods in particular directions...

    I think the overlap situation bears some thought - traditionally, any overlap means the overlapping planes cannot shoot at one another...if you overlap with a tripod, could he attack you with his tentacles? We shall experiment, eh?!

    All the best,
    Matt

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    Not a bad idea, Dave - that would make it similar to firing to the rear with an observer...short range directly behind is in the blind spot - long range lets your observer hit the tailing plane...

    I agree we need to add more into the Tripods games, Dan - we can come up with some house rules that will cover what the published rules do not. Perhaps with altitude, your plane could actually run into a tripod at ALT 1 or 2... I think the toppling situation with walkers and terrain will add a whole 'nother dimension to play. It could really channel the tripods in particular directions...

    I think the overlap situation bears some thought - traditionally, any overlap means the overlapping planes cannot shoot at one another...if you overlap with a tripod, could he attack you with his tentacles? We shall experiment, eh?!

    All the best,
    Matt
    HHmmmm...Interesting proposal with the tentacles. I would be up for that. The plane could fire, but the tripod can attack with tentacles would be my idea assuming you do not have a collision.

    For crazy thoughts, could we have a tripod with King Kong riding on it!!!

    Ok, seriously, I think tentacles would be very true to the books.

    Dan

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    With myself, I was getting confused with the altitude rules with the Tripods. If I overlap a tripod can I still shoot at it????
    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    ...Dan - we can come up with some house rules that will cover what the published rules do not. Perhaps with altitude, your plane could actually run into a tripod at ALT 1 or 2... ...
    I think the whole idea of altitude with tripods needs addressing properly and sensibly - they are not thousands of feet tall, the biggest tops out at 46ft according to the Ares blurb so they are all well within Alt 1.
    What needs to be developed is a 'low flying' sub-set of the Alt 1 altitude - rules to cope with the low altitudes involved that will dovetail with the game mechanics - for instance:
    Sub Level 1 - is up to 25 feet - Hedgehopping
    Sub Level 2 - is 26-50 feet - Black smoke would deploy to this height (height of tallest tripod)
    Sub Level 3 - is 51-75 feet -
    Sub Level 4 - is 76-100 feet -

    Compare this to the heights given for the tripods and it seems more in keeping:
    Locust over 10 meters (32'+)
    Scarab over 10 meters (32'+)
    Squid over 7 meters (23'+)
    Cuttlefish over 14 meters (46'+)

    You can determine the number of pegs to use to make it look right.
    Firing ranges / altitude can be applied in similar manner to the full WoG rules to make things easy.
    Collisions at level 1 & 2, but not 3 & 4 being higher than the tallest tripod,
    Firing in overlap - I'd say no unless applying higher MG rules - though you could argue to use rear guns.
    Bombing would have to occur from higher than that (in real Alt 2) as they can't bomb from level 1.
    Anyway, just a few ideas to throw into the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    ...if you overlap with a tripod, could he attack you with his tentacles?
    flying between his legs & getting caught in his tentacles sounds nasty Matt !!
    Last edited by flash; 10-14-2019 at 09:45.

    "He is wise who watches"

  22. #22

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    In playtesting, planes and tripods did not overlap. Period. As Dave [Flash] suggests above, the tripods are not big enough to collide with planes at any altitude, unless they are on the ground in an aerodrome. That's the way I believe Andrea intended the game to play, which is why there is no mention of it in the rules. It didn't come up in playtesting, because Andrea discounted the possibility.

    I don't play with altitude, so it never came up with my group, either. We did go through the mechanics of blocked lines of sight, and they were covered somewhat in the Black Smoke rules. I'd like to have seen something more (Tripod being able to pick the altitude of deployment on launch, up to Altitude 4, with smoke affecting +-1 level), but at least it is there.

    Keeping things simple, and not overthinking this, I play that there is no collisions between tripods and planes, ever, and overlapping vehicles can't shoot each other. The exception to that would be ground attack aircraft, with guns mounted in the floor, used to straff trenches.

    Like this plane, with 6 MGs shooting into the ground below the plane (Yellow front firing arc):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    So, technically, if this plane overlapped, you would use the "Higher Machinegun" rules, but for a target under the plane.

    Or these:
    OldGuy59's WGF Equipment Cards Album - Downward Firing MGs - Standard Rules
    OldGuy59's WGF Equipment Cards Album - Downward Firing MGs - Advanced Rules

    BTW: When playing without altitude, and we have a plane with the "Higher Machinegun" equipment card, we flip a Jam Counter. If the Jam Counter lands with the Jam up, the plane with the upper wing MG can't shoot the other plane as the potential target has passed "under" the other.

    PS: OK, now that I've added the "Lower Machinegun" equipment cards, the Jam Counter would work in the opposite way. If the planes overlap, and there are lower MGs, the Jam indicates the target is "above", and not a viable target.

    PPS: The original War of the Worlds was written before powered flight, so there was no mention of flying targets. In Andrea's re-imagined world, Martian tripods weren't ready for flying things, only ground targets. So, hitting very fast moving planes is difficult. Also, the projectors weren't meant to shoot above them, but below them. So, I don't have any problem imagining that tripods can't shoot at overlapping planes. They are way out of any firing arc the Martians ever conceived of having to shoot.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-14-2019 at 10:40.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  23. #23

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    Great 'food for thought', Dave - I like what you've come up with given the 'real' height of the tripods and the specialized T&T 'peg' levels...

    Your info is also of great help, Mike - it is interesting to hear some 'historical' background on Andrea's reimagining of Wells's reality in the novel. I like your connection of the higher/lower gun options, too.

    Certainly lots to think about here - in the end, the goal ought to be to keep it easy to remember and play with...

    All the best,
    Matt

  24. #24

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    Lots of interesting ideas. Gives more insight into playing. Thanks!!!



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