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Thread: Another Rotation queston

  1. #1

    Default Another Rotation queston

    When planning a rotation you do not rotate the miniature until the first card is played. Does that mean thar the first card played in the turn does not have to be a straight or stop?

  2. #2

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    Baxter,

    you are half right, When you plan a rotation in the planning stage. you most rotate the ship after the first maneuver card is played. The first Maneuver card CAN be an over boost, so, you can use an over boost-rotate-use second maneuver card using the flight stands heading not the ship facing for the second card

    at least that is how I read it.

  3. #3

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    Hi Mark, I think you are sayingthat I could play an overboost turning card then rotate the ship and play a straight in the flight stand heading. I have trouble in interpreting the rules and appreciate your input.

  4. #4

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    yes sir, that is how I see it in the rules :-)

  5. #5

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    My reading of the rules is that in the turn you wish to rotate your ship, you can only plan straight maneuvers. These are clearly marked with a white arrow in a blue hexagon. This applies to both the overboost and the maneuver card. (Page 14-15 of the rule book.)

    So, no, you can't plan a non-straight overboost, rotate, and then play a straight maneuver card. That would be an illegal move.

    PS: As I see this, you are sort-of using your existing "inertial movement" as you go into your intended rotation move. When rotated, you are drifting/straffing based on your previous kinetic energy (almost). I added the almost, because you can change your kinetic energy, if you plan your straights at a different speed. Or plan a stop. Both of these must be within your ship's acceleration rating, though.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-08-2019 at 07:40.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  6. #6

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    After another re-read, OldGuy59 is correct, it will change some dynamics over how the Ares team explained rotation while at Origins during the 33 event

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by FCC21ret View Post
    After another re-read, OldGuy59 is correct, it will change some dynamics over how the Ares team explained rotation while at Origins during the 33 event
    Oops? Did the Ares Team at Origins explain it differently?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #8

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    in a big way, here is how they explained before the start of the 33 event,
    Planning phase, choose up to 2 cards as long as first was an over boost, and not to exceed the KE and acceleration. choose rotation if you wanted to rotate. (no mention of only straight maneuvers)
    if rotated, and you want to go back to the heading you where on prior to the rotation, you need to choose the change direction card as first move, if not, plan up to two maneuver cards (plus drift) to move in the direction your ship is facing due to drift and that is the new heading. they also had us rotate after both cards where played as well.

    prior to the 33 event my son and I have only played two games both using the basic rules on the day the game arrived, never really looked deeper until after Origins
    Last edited by FCC21ret; 08-08-2019 at 07:56. Reason: added something I forgot

  9. #9

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    But you could play a non-straight overboost and then play a straight card and rotate at the end of the move... As you say, Mike the key is that the card just before rotation must be a straight card.

    At Origins, I was close to the table where Ares was putting on the 33 Event but was running my own game and didn't hear the directions very well. I wonder if they were allowing some wiggle room on the KE/drift issue just to get folks into the game and playing? In the couple of games I have run at Origins and GenCon, getting your head around the drift idea has proven to be the biggest issue with game play - some folks get it right away, while others struggle to visualize it.

    If you are choosing the 'rotation' card, Mark, that would be your first card of a move in which you plan to end your drifting and power up engines and rotate again to head off in a potentially new direction. While you are drifting, you simply plot straight cards equal to your KE value when you began the drift - any rotating you are doing is indicated by the rotation dial on your ship console. You don't use the 'rotation' card unless you plan to power up and move in a different direction from how you are drifting. The rotation card caused several players issues in the games I ran, too...

    It sounds like the Ares folks were kind of explaining things correctly - I do remember that the noise level was rather high and they certainly could have used a loudspeaker of some sort. At GenCon their booth was considerably smaller, as was the table area for the 33 Event, so I imagine instructions were much more immediate there. Origins saw you all spread out quite a bit. When running a game at a convention, especially a big game with lots of first-time players, a rules briefing is always somewhat hit-and-miss. Glad you enjoy the game, though! I, too, think it is lots of fun

    All the best,
    Matt

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    But you could play a non-straight overboost and then play a straight card and rotate at the end of the move... As you say, Mike the key is that the card just before rotation must be a straight card.

    At Origins, I was close to the table where Ares was putting on the 33 Event but was running my own game and didn't hear the directions very well. I wonder if they were allowing some wiggle room on the KE/drift issue just to get folks into the game and playing? In the couple of games I have run at Origins and GenCon, getting your head around the drift idea has proven to be the biggest issue with game play - some folks get it right away, while others struggle to visualize it.

    If you are choosing the 'rotation' card, Mark, that would be your first card of a move in which you plan to end your drifting and power up engines and rotate again to head off in a potentially new direction. While you are drifting, you simply plot straight cards equal to your KE value when you began the drift - any rotating you are doing is indicated by the rotation dial on your ship console. You don't use the 'rotation' card unless you plan to power up and move in a different direction from how you are drifting.

    Matt
    I keep rereading the rules for this, and I understand the change of direction card, and how it is used, where I think folks are getting confused is with the planned rotation as well, Ares wrote it up as "Straight only Maneuver card(s)" with a planned rotation, I'm wondering if while during the writing of this section, they omitted any "G" forces caused by the rotation, since both the straight maneuver and over boost cards have a "G" force rating of 0, and the rotation max's out the "G" force for the planned turn? not sure, but I did reach out to Ares for more clarification, once they respond, I'll post it.

    Mark
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 05-02-2020 at 00:07.

  11. #11

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    I thought you could only play a straight when rotating.

    "Rotating the spaceship" (Pg 14-15)
    If, during the turn, your spaceship is either standing still (that is, speed is set to 0) or you planned only straight maneuver
    cards [straight arrow symbol], you can also plan to rotate you spaceship, to point (and fire) in a direction different from it's movement direction.

    I don't see any way to use a non-straight overboost in a turn that you rotate.

  12. #12

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    That sounds good to me, Peter! I didn’t have the rule book in front of me when I answered...

    Must-do straights keeps rotation simple!

    All the best,
    Matt

  13. #13

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    Peter, correct, only straight moves, i reached iut to Ares for a clarification so those that might be rules lawyers and bend rules to their benefit themselves

  14. #14

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    I think we are getting rotate and change direction mixed up. As I read it:

    1. When rotating you choose to rotate only when playing one or both straight marked cards, ie either the straight or over boost plus straight combined.

    2. To change direction when rotated away from direction of travel you must play a change of direction card, play the appropriate drift card first, rotate ship to new direction (2nd card) then move in that direction.

    All of the above keeping in mind total kinetic energy and acceleration etc.

    Question: In point 2 above do you still move in the direction of travel, using the appropriate straight line for your current kinetic energy level, then apply drift, then move the base to the change direction, then move?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  15. #15

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    If I remember correctly, Neil, when you are in your #2 hypothetical above, you play the change direction card, then 'drift' in the direction you have been drifting at the appropriate KE rate on the drift ruler, then rotate and align your base into the new direction you want to travel, then play your second card and move off in the new direction under power...there is no card-associated KE drift before you begin the process...

    All the best,
    Matt

  16. #16

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    All,
    Rotation:
    If you want to rotate your ship, to fire at something not directly ahead in your direction of travel, only straight maneuvers can be planned. As the ship rotates at the end of the First Movement Step, there is no way to plan an Overboost that is not a straight. No maneuvers that are not straight. Period!

    If someone plans a non-straight maneuver, and a rotation, they take damage, and don't rotate. BTW: This excludes using the Change Direction card, as it isn't a straight.

    Change Direction:
    When planning a move with the Change Direction card, you reveal this in the First Movement Step, and 'Drift' (depending on your KE at the start of your turn). In the First Movement Step, you drift. This will be based on your previous turn's KE. Then, you realign your base to your ship's nose.

    In the Second Movement Step, you reveal your non-Overboost maneuver, and move normally, with your ship and base aligned in your direction of travel.

    Note: If the Cylons are rotated, and want to change direction, they are limited in what they can choose coming out of rotation. The Cylon Change Direction card is a 2G maneuver, so only 1G and 2G manuevers can be chosen (If the Cylon hasn't had its G rating damaged). Colonials can choose any maneuver, up to 3G, as their Change Direction card is 0G!

    Depending on damage, if you entered a rotation at high KE, you may not be able to use a Change Direction card to leave the rotated condition, because you might have to plan moves higher than KE 3. In that case, your only option is to rotate back to be aligned with your base, and can then plan your next turn as a normal move. Including attempting to decelerate below 4 KE.

    PS: The 'drift' when revealing the Change Direction card is using the Drift Ruler only. You do not move the ship with a maneuver card at all in the First Movement Step, because you didn't plan with it (that would be a three card maneuver, and we don't have them in the game. Yet?). Inertial Movement is only used in turns where you are rotated/rotating, and moving in the base heading direction.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-29-2019 at 18:12.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

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    Whoops - just read OldGuy's notes and realized I was playing at the end of non-straight maneuvers.
    I'll have to go back and read those pages!

  18. #18

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    Check page 14/15 of the rule book.
    ROTATING THE SPACESHIP
    If, during the turn, your spaceship is either standing still (that is, speed is set to [square]), or you planned only straight maneuver cards([arrow] symbol), you can also plan to rotate your spaceship, to point (and fire) in a direction different from its movement direction.
    Check page 18 of the rule book.
    ILLEGAL MOVES
    ...

    - If you planned any non-straight maneuver card(s), other than a change direction, while rotated, replace the maneuver and/or the overboost with straight ones;

    ...

    - If any other choice of an illegal maneuver is revealed (for example because the total G-value is higher than four, or because there is no maneuver arrow matching the current speed), you must replace it with a straight maneuver, adjusting the speed if necesary.

    Draw one damage counter, using only its numeric value. ...
    So, if the Ares Team at Origins was doing something else, like allowing people to rotate after they had planned turns, either overboosts or slower maneuvers, they were using "Origin Special Rules". They probably weren't drawing damage chits, either.

    In accordance with the third bullet in the rules (repeated above), if someone plans a turn and a rotation, that is an illegal move, and is replaced with a straight, and damage is drawn.

    Rotation always happens at the end of the First Movement Step, to allow the ship to use only one maneuver card, if desired, and to be able to shoot in the new direction. There is nothing in the Second Movement Step that allows a ship to rotate, because it is supposed to happen in the First Movement Step only.

    Unless there is a new Ace Skill coming allowing a pilot to rotate in both Steps, and shoot in both Steps? That would be doubly nasty.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-29-2019 at 18:02.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  19. #19

    Jaxin's Avatar
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    I would like to see a Talent card for advanced pilots that would allow a curving overboost to be used. Example: {EXTREME MANEUVERS: This pilot can use a turning overboost, then rotate the ship into a straight maneuver and slide until changing directions.} Combined with the card that allows a pilot to exceed the G force by one would create some really interesting tight maneuvering options. I think this would help mimic some of the maneuvers I watched on the television battles too. We are planning to test this option is some future games to see how it would affect the play and what level of points it would have to be applied to a card such as this in the point system.

  20. #20

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    We haven't heard, or at least I haven't read, anything about a time factor per turn in BSG. In other Ares games, the time factor per movement 'step', or phase, is about two seconds.

    So, how much could be accomplished by a 'person' in two seconds? The game encompasses: flying the ship; targeting an opponent; and, firing at that opponent. Being that we have some ships that move twice in one turn, and everyone is able to shoot at the end of each maneuver (whether or not the specific ship moved twice), the time factor is skewed. Thought: should a pilot that makes only one maneuver in a turn get a bonus to shoot?

    So, thinking the process through, allowing extreme maneuvering, such as Overboosts before rotating, would seroiusly tax the capabilities of the pilot. I would suggest that there be an appropriate penalty imposed to fly the ship. Such as 'no shooting' as the pilot is focused on flying.

    As to how the game reflects what was seen in the TV series, I'm not that familiar with series. How 'accurately' does the game emulate all the things that were portrayed on the screen? I'll do a YouTube search to see if anyone has posted anything useful as a 'reference'. Also, Sci-Fi TV doesn't always follow the laws of physics, either.

    PS: In any combat situation, or anything that requires tactics, the 'aces' don't live in the moment. They are tracking all the surrounding action, and besides the primary target, they are watching their wingers, and other opponents. They will be projecting their current position and heading towards where they want to be in a few seconds. This is the management burden that combat pilots train to accomplish, and is one reason that only a few make it through the training. The 'bit-bucket' overflows, and the pilot can't get their head wrapped around all the things they have to consider in combat.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 05-10-2020 at 09:23.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  21. #21

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    "Thought: should a pilot that makes only one maneuver in a turn get a bonus to shoot?"

    There are modifiers for shooting based on target and shooter KE. Higher KE does make it more difficult to shoot and be shot.

    I would agree that a non-straight before rotating would make it more difficult to shoot if shooting is allowed. Giving one player the ability to do what Greg proposes would give that player a big advantage.

    Exceeding G force? I can see Cylons having more of a chance for that than the humans.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    We haven't heard, or at least I haven't read, anything about a time factor per turn in BSG. In other Ares games, the time factor per movement 'step', or phase, is about two seconds.

    So, how much could be accomplished by a 'person' in two seconds? The game encompasses: flying the ship; targeting an opponent; and, firing at that opponent. Being that we have some ships that move twice in one turn, and everyone is able to shoot at the end of each maneuver (whether or not the specific ship moved twice), the time factor is skewed. Thought: should a pilot that makes only one maneuver in a turn get a bonus to shoot?

    So, thinking the process through, allowing extreme maneuvering, such as Overboosts before rotating, would seroiusly tax the capabilities of the pilot. I would suggest that there be an appropriate penalty imposed to fly the ship. Such as 'no shooting' as the pilot is focused on flying.

    As to how the game reflects what was seen in the TV series, I'm not that familiar with series. How 'accurately' does the game emulates all the things that were portrayed on the screen? I'll do a YouTube search to see if anyone has posted anything useful as a 'reference'. Also, Sci-Fi TV doesn't always follow the laws of physics, either.

    PS: In any combat situation, or anything that requires tactics, the 'aces' don't live in the moment. They are tracking all the surrounding action, and besides the primary target, they are watching their wingers, and other opponents. They will be projecting their current position and heading towards where they want to be in a few seconds. This is the management burden that combat pilots train to accomplish, and is one reason that only a few make it through the training. The 'bit-bucket' overflows, and the pilot can't get their head wrapped around all the things they have to consider in combat.
    Reference for the Post-Script above:

    Youtube.com - Jetstream Ep 6 "Dream Killer"

    Minutes 25-ish to 28-ish shows a trainee pilot in a dogfight not keeping up.

    The rest of the series is enlightening as to what a fighter pilot trainee goes through in Canada.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 05-12-2020 at 07:03.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    ...

    Exceeding G force? I can see Cylons having more of a chance for that than the humans.
    I went through that discussion with Andrea, and the "G" ratings on the Change Direction cards. I would have thought that robots would not have to worry about G. However, the "G" rating on the cards was reflecting the ship design, not the pilots. Now, as to how good a pilot a Cylon robot could be? Depends on how good the software algorithyms are? If the robot has an artificial intelligence, how much can it learn, and how fast is the hardware (CPU)?

    It is all Sci-Fi in this game, so who knows. We have Scar as a benchmark, I suppose. Have you noted that Scar exceeds the limits of talents for a pilot? By a LOT! And no Flaws in compensation?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 05-12-2020 at 07:02.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  24. #24

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    Just watched your Jetstream link. Great insight into what is going on with so much computerization in dogfighting joined with human decision making.

    Yeah, Scar is quite the ultimate program. I have not played with experienced players so have not introduced skills and flaws yet.

  25. #25

    Jaxin's Avatar
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    I like the idea of providing the penalty of not being able to shoot after the boost card. That makes good sense. I watched the Jetstream video too. It was quite interesting and enjoyable. I am wondering if the advanced pilots that were teaching the new ones could pull off the maneuvers that they were discussing with regard to not having the bucket too full. The way they talked I believe they thought they could. I think its possible that a very advanced and experienced pilot might be able to pull off that action. It would not be an action that could be done casually and it may not be successful every time and include limitations for sure. It would be fun to be able to pull that off now and then.



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