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Thread: Scenario 8 OTT DYM: Schlacht um Verdun Unternehmen Gericht*(Operation Judgement)

  1. #51

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    4 turns played and having my usual luck with the card draws ...


    Observations of the game so far:

    1)
    I don't think there should be a +1 for shots with a difference in pegs.
    I ended up with too many, both mine vs. AA and the Bulldogs vs. mine.
    The difference between "pegs" as opposed to altitude levels does not justify them.

    2)
    I think the Eagles need at least 1 escort.
    My first wave of 3 Rolands has just one remaining (that cannot drop his bomb due to positioning caused by a pilot wound) and I have 4 Entente aircraft for him to try and elude.
    (although one of the DH.2s has FRTB-E - which will be replaced as soon as he exits )

    3)
    Having to wait until all of my first wave is off the table before I can bring on wave 2.
    Do the Entente planes just hover around waiting for more?
    Or do they exit and return when the next wave makes it to the table?

    4)
    AA cannot fire if there are any friendly planes in the cutting.
    Although this does benefit me, I think that for the AAMG there would have to be a friendly aircraft between the gun and the target aircraft.
    For Archie the rule should be they can't fire if within half a ruler of a friendly target.
    Actually the special rules for AA do state that in point 13, so I think that makes more sense.

    I did let them fire once because there were no Entente between the gun(s) - seemed ridiculous - especially for the AAMG.
    And speaking of AAMG ...

    5)
    Two rulers seems a bit much when the aircraft only get one.

    Don't get me wrong. It's not all negative - I do like the challenge of the game.

    But the bombing still seems like rockets ....

    Although I have yet to drop any.


    I like the look of the board with the different scenery levels, and it's definitely a daunting task, so I want to see it through.
    I was planning on bringing in named crews in the next bunch, but now I am not so sure ...

    Hoping to see some confirmations and comments from you chaps before I start Part Deux ...
    I am with you Pete on some of the points you raised!
    The 2 ruler range of the AAMG just does NOT make sense & I intend to reduce it to one ruler for my game as that is what the Official Rules say.
    Also agree on your +1 comments. Should be Altitude not Peg difference.
    I am still mulling over this mission & want to spend more time digesting everything before playing mine which I will probably do next weekend.
    Re the opposition aircraft just "hanging around" they would surely be running low on fuel so I reckon just bring on the next defenders when you next wave of attackers come on.

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  2. #52

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    Hm. Going to run this one soon, I've come up with a good twist about using and not using my standard roster.

    Though the two ruler shot distance for AAMGs does seem a bit generous.

  3. #53

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    Pete,

    I have played the game and done my photos for the AAR. I started the write up but stopped and will re-start as what I had was a bit dreary.

    On your points:

    1) I didn't think airplanes got +1 for strafing ground targets, but I was okay with the +1 for the peg advantage - in particular I thought it worked because of the constrained movements of the bombers (no evasive manoeuvres), However, I chose Neuport 17 versus Hannovers / Ufag which balanced that and gave the interceptors the fragile TIE fighter feel.

    2) I was happy enough as is because the bombers I used have MG front and back and put out a lot of firepower against the interceptors. I'll show some statistics in my AAR that shows the bombers held their own. Mostly the deciding factors were boom and fire cards. With a fire card a bomber has to abort as it cannot continue flying straight.

    3) It wasn't issue for my game but that may be because I brought on 1 interceptor each turn and if one was destroyed / FRTB the replacement had to wait its turn to enter. I'd have to check but there weren't 4 interceptors on the table when the 2nd wave entered but that would vary from game to game.

    4) I didn't have interceptors enter the cutting as that would be one more plane for me to control and I played it so that planes outside could fire into the cutting if they were within 1/2 ruler of it. A simple rule but it actually worked out ok and quite nicely replicated the TIE fighters screaming overhead. I'm not sure that would have been better for the interceptors but if I replayed that's an option worth playing out.

    5) As noted in the above posts I got it wrong and played it according to the rules - 1 ruler. Perhaps it's my military operational research background as I got caught up in the military terminology. One does not refer to AAMG as AA 'guns' which on reflection I think is a tribal thing in that 'guns' or 'cannons' belong to the 'artillery' while AAMG are found everyone (e.g., in the infantry). AA guns = AA artillery = anything 20mm and up and AAMG are not AA 'guns'. So that tripped me up. However, I only had two AAMG cards that could fire which were deadly enough. Hard luck if you get 4 AAMG cards. AA guns are so much nicer being so much more useless.

    All in all I think it worked out well - interesting. Hopefully my AAR will be up shortly - although it's a different set of planes (late 1917 versus early 1916).

  4. #54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    I am with you Pete on some of the points you raised!
    The 2 ruler range of the AAMG just does NOT make sense & I intend to reduce it to one ruler for my game as that is what the Official Rules say.
    Also agree on your +1 comments. Should be Altitude not Peg difference.
    Re the opposition aircraft just "hanging around" they would surely be running low on fuel so I reckon just bring on the next defenders when you next wave of attackers come on.
    I am going to reduce the AAMG range to one ruler going forward.
    I am also doing away with the +1 as the height difference is just not enough to give any advantage.

    Only four turns in, so the Entente fuel would still be sufficient.
    I think I will have those that are within a reasonable distance (say 3 rulers) from my exiting Roland pursue it, and the others will head back toward their point of entry (which so far has been the same for all 4 of them!)
    Besides, I only have one more Bulldog scout to bring on.

    If needs must I will bring on 'nameless' adversaries like Kyte's.
    I think I will only allow the Entente to have one plane more than the Eagles when bringing on reinforcements to try to keep things reasonably close.

    One other point - the AA on the higher ground (not the one above the target) have not come into play because I brought all my guys straight up the cut.
    They will possibly get a shot at my limping survivor as he attempts his way off the board, though.
    Last edited by Stumptonian; 08-09-2019 at 22:41.

  5. #55

    Exclamation

    Further to my post No. 51 above.
    I spent an hour going through the BRF in fine detail & found a "doozy" in the Special Instructions for AA/AAA fire: Point No,14 says AAMG's can only fire up to 3 pegs high so as I read it if I fly my Bombers at Peg 4, I negate the ability for the AAMG's to fire at 2 rulers range as they can NOT fire at me at all.
    Do we all agree on this?

    So at this point in time I plan to fly 2 x BE2's & 1 x FE2b as these are the only early war 2 seaters I have.
    Against these I will fly 4 Eindekkers & if/when all 3 of my Bombers are shot down or successfully clear the table I will call the game.
    Like Pete I intend to ignore the + 1's for Peg advantage as I will have the E.III's flying at 4 pegs as well.

    Comments invited.

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  6. #56

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    Barry I had read the bit about 3 peg heigt for the AAMG's and also Neil's comments about planes firing into the cutting, it sort of seemed to me that he's offering you two choices, fly high and take on the fighters or fly low and take on the AAMG's, fly at mid height and you're dead.

    Regarding the 2 ruler range for AAMG it doesn't seem an unreasonable proposition. Pilots tended to fire at short range because they were in an unstable situation with limited ammunition firing at a relatively unstable target. Fixed AAMG's on the ground are stable with unlimited ammunition so would put out a much larger amount of firepower.

    Having said that I might still go with 1 ruler range because i agree with Paul on how deadly it is. Basically an AAMG is 5 points to kill, my planes are going to kill them at a ratio of slightly better than 2 to 1. I E planes are about 12 points to kill. So if I fly down the trench with FE2b'sI will kill the 4 AA guns and lose 1 or 2 planes doing it, unless I use the limited ammunition rule. Of course I might get lucky and face AACannon which are less predictable. If I give the AAMG's 2 ruler range I don't think I can make it and BE2's firing forward at an angle are dead.

    Currently my intention is to fly 3 named piloted planes because thats all I have. I'm going to fly wheels 12" above the floor of the cut and I'm not going to have enemy planes shoot into the cut unless they are tailing or actually in the cut and I haven't decided how they will get in there, the AI wont do it and I'm not sure I can either. The cut is 2 cards wide, my FE2b's have a fingers width either side of their wing tips before touching the sides of the cutting, so there's not a lot of room for manoeuvre.

    I havent decided how the planes outside the cut are going to know where the planes in the cut are because they can't see them unless they are flying high. I think Pauls calculation was at 250m they could see into the cut 90m away. So until they are that close my planes are invisible!

    Regarding shooting into the cut if they can't see in until 90m away and if flying at 100mph the enemy will cover the 90m in about 2 seconds, they will need to be in a shallow dive to get the angle to shoot downwards, so I think its impracticable, but that's only my view.

    This scenario is throwing up all sorts of choices and its great that we can create house rules to resolve them.

    Oh dear I think my ears have started to bleed.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 08-10-2019 at 00:50.

  7. #57

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    My eyes have ...

    "He is wise who watches"

  8. #58

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    You're in no position to comment ! ...

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    Further to my post No. 51 above.
    I spent an hour going through the BRF in fine detail & found a "doozy" in the Special Instructions for AA/AAA fire: Point No,14 says AAMG's can only fire up to 3 pegs high so as I read it if I fly my Bombers at Peg 4, I negate the ability for the AAMG's to fire at 2 rulers range as they can NOT fire at me at all.
    Do we all agree on this?

    So at this point in time I plan to fly 2 x BE2's & 1 x FE2b as these are the only early war 2 seaters I have.
    Against these I will fly 4 Eindekkers & if/when all 3 of my Bombers are shot down or successfully clear the table I will call the game.
    Like Pete I intend to ignore the + 1's for Peg advantage as I will have the E.III's flying at 4 pegs as well.

    Comments invited.
    Re-reading point 14 does make some sense for the AAMG but also explains the "no fire if friendlies in the cut" because stray shots could hit your own planes.
    The killer for me is the forced break between raids.
    If I could keep pouring aircraft into the breach I should eventually be able to overpower them, but when you have to wait until all three are either shot down or off the board it just begins the slaughter all over again.

    I think I will re-read Dave's account and go over the rules as written again and try to decide which path to take through the meat grinder ...

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I am going to reduce the AAMG range to one ruler going forward.
    I decided to keep the 2-ruler shots for AAMG to be consistent.
    After re-reading my re-read of the bombing it appears Neil's rules are like what I thought they should be when we were 'discussing' high altitude bombing.

    Let's see how I do with it.


    Third attacking bomber just took a BOOM from that 2-ruler AAMG ...

  11. #61

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    Mission Completed.
    Hope to get it posted later this week while SWMBO is out.

  12. #62

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    Wow - I got about a third of the way down the question sheets and gave up. Think I'll just give it a blast the way I interpret it should be done. If it turns out to be wrong then so be it Bye bye pilots and observers - so I'll have to come up with some new names. Could be fun in itself Or maybe, just maybe, they'll all survivie.

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeemagnus View Post
    Wow - I got about a third of the way down the question sheets and gave up. Think I'll just give it a blast the way I interpret it should be done..
    You will be fine.

  14. #64

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    Hope so, when I've found a few replacements after Mission 7 PM sent Uncle

    PS Mission 7 AAR not up yet but the Mission is complete and the Butcher's Bill done too. Getting ready for Mission 8 now

  15. #65

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeemagnus View Post
    Hope so, when I've found a few replacements after Mission 7 PM sent Uncle

    PS Mission 7 AAR not up yet but the Mission is complete and the Butcher's Bill done too. Getting ready for Mission 8 now
    I'm expecting to see this in 3d, cutting gouged out of the tiles and planes flying in it.

  16. #66

    Exclamation IMPORTANT NEW DETAIL

    If any of you have not read Shadow Dragons AAR of this mission you will have missed a "Bombshell"
    Neil has posted in reply #5 that the "Range of the AAMG should be only ONE RULER"
    So if you have already played using a 2 ruler rule you have been "dudded"!

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    If any of you have not read Shadow Dragons AAR of this mission you will have missed a "Bombshell"
    Neil has posted in reply #5 that the "Range of the AAMG should be only ONE RULER"
    So if you have already played using a 2 ruler rule you have been "dudded"!
    Yep - well and truly (although I might have used a different word ....

  18. #68

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Yep - well and truly (although I might have used a different word ....
    Agreed! I too was trying to be restrained & polite & I haven't even played mine yet.

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  19. #69

    Skafloc's Avatar Northern Command Squadron Leader.
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    Well I can only offer apologies. Reading through questions I had thought members had read thoroughly and went with their account. Like I said it's bloody hard doing all this by phone.

    If you don't want to fly it don't.

    If you do do.

    If you want to refly it be my guest.

    So after 3 knockdown I'm back in my corner as my corner man throws in the towel.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  20. #70

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    I have the answer I think, although I'm not sure the Ministry will run with it. Its a bomb and its supposed to bounce the full length of the ravine, so no need to fly down it, over it or through it at all

    OK, Sometime in the future perhaps!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    What do you reckon guys - or is it just another Barmy whally idea?

  21. #71

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    Neil, I reckon it'll be just fine - I shall give it my best shot anyway

  22. #72

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    Barking not barmy

    Well I've cut my table in half built a ravine/cutting/trench and am ready to go.


  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Well I can only offer apologies. Reading through questions I had thought members had read thoroughly and went with their account. Like I said it's bloody hard doing all this by phone.

    If you don't want to fly it don't.

    If you do do.

    If you want to refly it be my guest.

    So after 3 knockdown I'm back in my corner as my corner man throws in the towel.

    Neil
    As the one who added more confusion than clarity through my questions, I apologize for my part.

    I should also point out that I played the game with far more dangerous conditions than stated in the scenario rules - i.e., in the cut my planes should have faced only AA weapons or scouts (most likely just one) in the cut. Allowing planes outside the cut to shoot into the cut did make it more difficult BUT it made it more exciting - and hence results in a better story. I wouldn't go back and change a single thing.

    Thank you for an interesting and challenging scenario - as I wrote above, I wouldn't change a single thing I did (except for trying to make fewer mistakes). You have no need to apologise. The only thing I'd suggest is not trying to respond to questions via a mobile phone - maybe upfront suggest that either people get on with it with an interpretation as they think best or wait to ask questions once the scenario creator is back in front of a 'real' computer. That's not a criticism but a lesson from experience for future scenarios.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    ...So after 3 knockdown I'm back in my corner as my corner man throws in the towel....
    At least you came out swinging Neil

    "He is wise who watches"

  25. #75

    Skafloc's Avatar Northern Command Squadron Leader.
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    Towels in the ring, game over.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  26. #76

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    I've run this one finally, writing it up now. Preview: it was more wildly successful than I ever thought it was going to be.

  27. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Towels in the ring, game over.
    Neil, I've almost finished and I played it as I read your original scenario, ignoring all the questions and indeed answers. There are some complications dropping the bombs and exiting the railway cutting but as we're flying planes I just winged it.

    I thought it was a very different and imaginative scenario. I only ever intended to fly 3 planes and I expected to succeed, but also expected to lose 1 or maybe 2 planes doing it.

    I'm not going to say if I was right or wrong in my assessment, you'll just have to read the report.
    Cheers

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