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Thread: Scenario 8 OTT DYM: Schlacht um Verdun Unternehmen Gericht*(Operation Judgement)

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    Default Scenario 8 OTT DYM: Schlacht um Verdun Unternehmen Gericht*(Operation Judgement)

    Apologies but I am going to have to post this up now and in the format it's in. My computer is terminal and it's taken me a week to get this mother to turn on, so whilst it is I'm posting the BRF for scenario 8 before it's lost in the ether for ever. I wont be able to repair or replace until after our return from Canada (mid September) so it's now or never.
    Last edited by flash; 08-01-2019 at 00:25. Reason: Title adjust
    See you on the Dark Side......

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    See you on the Dark Side......

  3. #3

    Skafloc's Avatar Northern Command Squadron Leader.
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    This is a game of attrition or how long can you stay in the frying pan?

    Whatever side you fly for you are the attacker, the other side the defender.

    Have fun see you in October if I get a replacement or repair for this prehistoric desk top.

    Neil

    PS: Apologies Flash but I don't have time to redo all the diagrams and stuff. Promise I'll do better next time.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  4. #4

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    More stand off bombing coming up I think - hope you're around to field the questions Neil !
    Note to all: Dave will not be tallying any scores.

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    Oh, this one's going to get ugly, real quick.

    PS Question: can the AA cannon or MGs be strafed?
    Last edited by zenlizard; 07-15-2019 at 03:09.

  6. #6

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    Yes, if you feel brave enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by zenlizard View Post
    Oh, this one's going to get ugly, real quick.

    PS Question: can the AA cannon or MGs be strafed?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  7. #7

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    I think I will want to field new two-seater crews, as their life expectancy will be short.

    Another ‘Hawker Typhoon’ mission.

    Didn’t think we would be here again so soon.
    I prefer to look at the bombing modifications we discussed during Mission 6 briefing over the Ares method.

  8. #8

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    Way to go marra


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  9. #9

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    The games designed to provide a better chance of a hit in the railway cutting than bombing from higher up. As long as whatever method you use works in a similar way.
    You only get 1 bomb run pet two seater. No 2, 3 4+ loads. It's a one shot per plane drop.

    Neil

    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I think I will want to field new two-seater crews, as their life expectancy will be short.

    Another ‘Hawker Typhoon’ mission.

    Didn’t think we would be here again so soon.
    I prefer to look at the bombing modifications we discussed during Mission 6 briefing over the Ares method.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  10. #10

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    These are not canon bombing rules as far as I can make out Pete. It all looks like low level peg height bombing to me - 'cos you won't be flying up a railway cutting at level 1, unless you're in the Alps, and you can't drop bombs from level 1 in the rules now, so these must be adjusted scenario specific rules.
    I posted a similar AAR called Archies Alley about six years ago; quite good fun to 'run the guns' ! I may use the old carpet set up again for this one rather than mats.
    Last edited by flash; 07-16-2019 at 13:28.

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    These are not canon bombing rules as far as I can make out Pete. It all looks like low level peg height bombing to me - 'cos you won't be flying up a railway cutting at level 1, unless you're in the Alps, and you can't drop bombs from level 1 in the rules now, so these must be adjusted scenario specific rules.
    I posted a similar AAR called Archies Alley about six years ago; quite good fun to 'run the guns' ! I may use the old carpet set up again for this one rather than mats.
    As these are not canon bombing rules and, apparently, neither are the climbing rules (one peg per climb card), it appears that these are scenario specific rules (and presumably all peg heights 1-4 are likely within 1 peg normal peg height) to represent two attack options (attacking outside or outside the cut). So that begs the question of how far to bombs travel and do they travel for multiple phases or not.

    As written in the scenario it appears that the options are:

    Level 1: 1 manoeuvre card + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defender inside the cut
    Level 2: 2 manoeuvre cards + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defenders inside the cut
    Level 3: 3 manoeuvre cards + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defenders above the cut
    Level 4: 4 manoeuvre cards + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defenders above the cut

    Normal bombing would be (1 manoeuvre card + 1 bomb card) for each phase the bomb is in flight, which is immediately (once / 1 phase) for level 2, two times for levels 3 & 4, three times for levels 5 to 7, four times for levels 8 to 11 and 5 times for levels 12 & above. Noting, as flash has, that bombing cannot be done from level 1.

    The scenario, however, has 2 pegs flying inside the 'cut' which cannot be higher than the normal level 1 and pegs 3 & 4 outside the 'cut' - also likely no more than the normal level 1 above ground level but possibly peg 4 would equate with the normal level 2 above ground level. Given that the stats for working out unofficial airplanes has level 1 = 250m and level 2 = 500m, I can't see peg 4 in the scenario being greater than level 1.

    If that's the case, what might that mean?

    1) No range reductions for altitude differences as these are all within 1 normal altitude level. So all ground fire will not be affected by peg level differences.
    2) If flying in the cut, you must climb to peg 3 (2 climb cards) to exit the cut. I you try to exit at peg 1 or 2 your plane will crash with the walls of the cut. This must be the case as guns outside the cut cannot hit planes within the cut.
    3) Can you get a +1 for peg height advantage?
    4) How do peg differences affect field of fire zones for rear firing guns?
    5) Bombing is done by the method described above 1 manoeuvre card per peg level + 1 bomb card and the bomb hit immediately regardless of peg height

    A further question is whether or not airplanes flying at 3 or 4 peg height (not calling them altitude levels as 'peg height' isn't equal to a game altitude level) must fly along the cut (but above it) for their bomb to have a chance to hit the targeted entrance. I'm assuming that's the case. So the only differences are (1) which guns can fire at you and (2) the number of manoeuvre cards needed for bomb distance.

    A not really final question is when can defending scouts fire at planes within the cut? Do they also need to be flying within the cut or above but along the cut line? Given the famous movie from which this scenario is taken, I would assume that enemy scouts must be flying inside the cut or above but along the cut in order to fire at a plane in the cut - and, of course, vice versa would true. Or perhaps there's a certain angle of flight with respect to the cut line that an airplane above the cut can fly and still fire - perhaps at 1/2 range.

    Well, that wasn't a final question....strafing guns in the cut while flying in the cut with a forward firing MG. Wouldn't a pilot have to concentrate fully on flying to avoid crashing (i.e., can't fire forward MG while in the cut)?

    Enemy scouts in the cut - if it takes full concentration of the pilot to fly in the cut, would there be a chance for the enemy scout to crash with the walls of the cut if the scout wishes to fire at the 2-seater bomber?

    I'm willing to go with scenario specific rules as this should be an interesting, even it appears to be a somewhat deadly and even squadron-roster-eliminating scenario.

  12. #12

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    Okay I misread the use of “pegs” in this scenario vs. Altitude Levels.


    Still going to use one-off crews rather than my already reduced Adler ones.
    With no skin in the game this will be an interesting challenge.
    Kinda like the Dam Busters but with Death Star overtones.

    I wonder if we should treat this mission as a ‘bonus’ like the Christmas extras since we cannot use our ‘character’ rookies that we are supposed fly each mission per the DYM campaign rules.


  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Okay I misread the use of “pegs” in this scenario vs. Altitude Levels.


    Still going to use one-off crews rather than my already reduced Adler ones.
    With no skin in the game this will be an interesting challenge.
    Kinda like the Dam Busters but with Death Star overtones.

    I wonder if we should treat this mission as a ‘bonus’ like the Christmas extras since we cannot use our ‘character’ rookies that we are supposed fly each mission per the DYM campaign rules.

    That's what I thought too until I saw flash's post about bombing at level 1.

    I'm mixed about using my Flik crew too. I expect quite a number of attacking planes to be shot down in enemy territory - so very probably missing 2 to 4 missions if not KIA or POW.

    Would like some clarify on bombing from above peg 1 - does the bomb hit immediately as with altitude level 1 bombing? For bombing above peg 1 is it 2, 3 or 4 manoeuvre cards with one bomb card?

    Do you crash in the railway cut if not at peg level 3 or 4? If so, how can you successfully bomb at level 1 and still get out of the railway without crashing? Seems to me that the plane will not be able to climb 2 pegs when that close to the end of the cut. An Immelmann - dropping the bomb on the first straight?

  14. #14

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    Breathe Paul, breathe ! Has anyone got a paper bag for him ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Breathe Paul, breathe ! Has anyone got a paper bag for him ?

  16. #16

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    I'm gonna just follow the destructions and hope for the best - lobbing a bomb down range from peg 4 and breaking off might get the job done with the first flight.

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #17

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    Might fly an X Wing for this one with an R2 unit as backup chaps


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by tikkifriend View Post
    Might fly an X Wing for this one with an R2 unit as backup chaps

  19. #19

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    How many aircraft you commit is up to you.

    What price was put on pilots heads viz vi's those are the orders get the job done kinda reality.

    On phone, so will trawl through questions when I can.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  20. #20

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    Would like some clarify on bombing from above peg 1 - does the bomb hit immediately as with altitude level 1 bombing? For bombing above peg 1 is it 2, 3 or 4 manoeuvre cards with one bomb card?


    Attackers:
    1.Start on the right edge of the playing area.
    2.Decide your altitude, each flight of 2 or 3 aircraft must be at the same altitude.
    3.If you decide to fly at 1 or 2 pegs height you may fly straight down the railway cutting. Guns above the cutting cannot fire at you with the exception of the gun above the tunnel entrance. Your bomb(s) will only travel forward 1 or 2 (dependent on peg height) stall or straight card, dependant on your last maneuver card.

    6. For every peg above 1 add 1 relevant maneuver card to the bomb movement.

    TO CLARIFY:
    1 Peg = 1 Maneuver card (either straight or stall - same as last card plane moved)
    2 Pegs = 2 Maneuver cards (as above)
    3 Pegs = etc



    Do you crash in the railway cut if not at peg level 3 or 4? If so, how can you successfully bomb at level 1 and still get out of the railway without crashing? Seems to me that the plane will not be able to climb 2 pegs when that close to the end of the cut. An Immelmann - dropping the bomb on the first straight?

    Altitude does not equate to pegs in this game. You can pull out of the railway cut if at 1 or 2 pegs height. You do no have to, but may, Immelmann.
    If at 1 peg you would be at 2 after the maneuver, if at 2 you would be at 3 and in range of the guns above the railway cutting. Remember the only gun that can fire into or above the cutting is whatever gun is above the tunnel entrance.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  21. #21

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    As these are not canon bombing rules and, apparently, neither are the climbing rules (one peg per climb card), it appears that these are scenario specific rules (and presumably all peg heights 1-4 are likely within 1 peg normal peg height) to represent two attack options (attacking outside or outside the cut). So that begs the question of how far to bombs travel and do they travel for multiple phases or not.

    As written in the scenario it appears that the options are:

    Level 1: 1 manoeuvre card + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defender inside the cut
    Level 2: 2 manoeuvre cards + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defenders inside the cut
    Level 3: 3 manoeuvre cards + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defenders above the cut
    Level 4: 4 manoeuvre cards + 1 bomb card / can only be fired at by defenders above the cut

    The above is correct.

    Normal bombing would be (1 manoeuvre card + 1 bomb card) for each phase the bomb is in flight, which is immediately (once / 1 phase) for level 2, two times for levels 3 & 4, three times for levels 5 to 7, four times for levels 8 to 11 and 5 times for levels 12 & above. Noting, as flash has, that bombing cannot be done from level 1.

    Not if you play the scenario specific rules which you confirmed above.

    The scenario, however, has 2 pegs flying inside the 'cut' which cannot be higher than the normal level 1 and pegs 3 & 4 outside the 'cut' - also likely no more than the normal level 1 above ground level but possibly peg 4 would equate with the normal level 2 above ground level. Given that the stats for working out unofficial airplanes has level 1 = 250m and level 2 = 500m, I can't see peg 4 in the scenario being greater than level 1.

    Forget altitude, height relevant to pegs; just play the scenario PEGS as written, you don't need to worry about this and that. 1 peg is 1 peg, 2 pegs is 2 pegs etc.

    If that's the case, what might that mean?

    1) No range reductions for altitude differences as these are all within 1 normal altitude level. So all ground fire will not be affected by peg level differences.

    Correct, all guns, whatever type can fire at anything within 2 rulers away; as the pegs are 1 to 4 max, deal with it.

    2) If flying in the cut, you must climb to peg 3 (2 climb cards) to exit the cut. I you try to exit at peg 1 or 2 your plane will crash with the walls of the cut. This must be the case as guns outside the cut cannot hit planes within the cut.

    Wrong. You can climb from peg 2 to 3 and exit the cut. You can climb from peg 1 and exit the cut. You don't crash into the walls of the railway cutting. I did write this in but decided to keep it simple, the scenario is deadly enough.

    3) Can you get a +1 for peg height advantage?

    Yes.

    4) How do peg differences affect field of fire zones for rear firing guns?

    If you're at peg height 1 or 2 you may engage any gun in the railway cutting, if at 3 or 4 only those above the cutting.

    5) Bombing is done by the method described above 1 manoeuvre card per peg level + 1 bomb card and the bomb hit immediately regardless of peg height

    Basically, Yes. Unless you cheat and measure out where you have to drop your bomb from.

    A further question is whether or not airplanes flying at 3 or 4 peg height (not calling them altitude levels as 'peg height' isn't equal to a game altitude level) must fly along the cut (but above it) for their bomb to have a chance to hit the targeted entrance. I'm assuming that's the case. So the only differences are (1) which guns can fire at you and (2) the number of manoeuvre cards needed for bomb distance.

    That is again correct.

    A not really final question is when can defending scouts fire at planes within the cut? Do they also need to be flying within the cut or above but along the cut line? Given the famous movie from which this scenario is taken, I would assume that enemy scouts must be flying inside the cut or above but along the cut in order to fire at a plane in the cut - and, of course, vice versa would true. Or perhaps there's a certain angle of flight with respect to the cut line that an airplane above the cut can fly and still fire - perhaps at 1/2 range.

    Enemy scouts have to be in the cut to fire at planes within the cut. However they will get a +1 advantage if firing from 2 pegs to 1 peg. As they would firing from 4 to 3.

    Well, that wasn't a final question....strafing guns in the cut while flying in the cut with a forward firing MG. Wouldn't a pilot have to concentrate fully on flying to avoid crashing (i.e., can't fire forward MG while in the cut)?

    Only time he can't fire his guns is the maneuver card he drops the bombs, otherwise he can.

    Enemy scouts in the cut - if it takes full concentration of the pilot to fly in the cut, would there be a chance for the enemy scout to crash with the walls of the cut if the scout wishes to fire at the 2-seater bomber?

    No. Nice try though.

    I'm willing to go with scenario specific rules as this should be an interesting, even it appears to be a somewhat deadly and even squadron-roster-eliminating scenario.

    It is designed that way and there is nothing wrong with a rookie flying a 2 seater. Use your roster pilots how you see fit. My actual 'character' is the rear in a 2 seater, so will be flying this mission.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  22. #22

    Skafloc's Avatar Northern Command Squadron Leader.
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    Now I've worn my fingers and eyes out using my damned mobile I'm off for a wee rest.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  23. #23

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    Thanks for the clarification Neil, think you got it all

    "He is wise who watches"

  24. #24

    Thumbs up

    Yeah thanks Neil.
    That seems to have cleared up my confusions.

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Now I've worn my fingers and eyes out using my damned mobile I'm off for a wee rest.
    Thanks for answering my many questions. Hope the fingers and eyes have recovered.

  26. #26

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    It looks to be extremely bloody, whatever rules set is used.

  27. #27

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    An interesting use of a well known scenario, very impressed that you were able to convert it into a WofW scenario so easily, may the force be with us.

  28. #28

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    I always try to adhere to the basic principle of KISS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    An interesting use of a well known scenario, very impressed that you were able to convert it into a WofW scenario so easily, may the force be with us.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  29. #29

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    I printed out the cards and found the bomb card is significantly smaller than the regular ones. Is this intentional? While the cross hairs are in middle, it makes a difference in that the printed one is shorter and will fall shorter than a regular bomb card. It also makes a difference for the target if all the cards print out too small than the target area will be smaller as well.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  30. #30

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    Mine printed out a tad bigger ! I'll muddle on with what I have.

    Looking to set this one up, thought occurs that the defending scouts will have to think about their angle of entry onto the field of battle so they can drop in behind enemy aircraft in the cutting - as they don't have 90 turns it might make it difficult otherwise.
    We currently all have enough enemy pilots to get the job done at the moment but PM your Uncles if you do need more.
    Last edited by flash; 07-28-2019 at 03:02.

    "He is wise who watches"

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Mine printed out a tad bigger ! I'll muddle on with what I have.

    Looking to set this one up, thought occurs that the defending scouts will have to think about their angle of entry onto the field of battle so they can drop in behind enemy aircraft in the cutting - as they don't have 90 turns it might make it difficult otherwise.
    We currently all have enough enemy pilots to get the job done at the moment but PM your Uncles if you do need more.
    I used a couple of scenario rule amplifications.

    1) planes outside the cutting can fire into the cutting if at peg heights 3 or 4 and within 1/2 ruler of the cutting. They can still fire a ruler’s length at a plane in the cutting as long as the plane is within a 1/2 ruler of the cutting edge - ie I didn’t play it that the LoS had to cross the cutting edge within the 1st ruler half but one could play it that way.

    2) planes at peg height 1 or 2 (nap of the earth flight?) outside the cutting are restricted the same as the ground weapons

    3) planes in the cutting had to climb to exit the cutting - so a plane a peg 2 would be at 3 outside the cutting and a plane at 1 would end up at peg 2 outside the cutting. The exception was the cutting end - planes can exit the cutting without a climb card if they fly straight over the tunnel entrance. It’s a deemed an implicit climb so the increase their peg height by 1. This is to make simple and allow planes bomb at height 1 without running into the tunnel entrance.

  32. #32

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    Well that was a roster clearing mission for sure. Amazingly no one killed or POW but some of the die rolls were close.

    Of 12 available (actually 1 was newly added to the roster) aircrew all of which were used - 7 wounded & evading / 2 for the duration. For the next mission the Flik will have 5 crew plus 1 recovered = 6 of the current roster

    For the Entente 7 scouts (2 were rookies newly added) - 4 wounded / 1 for the duration = 3 available for the next mission (all from the foreign squadron and none from the Italian)

    CP planes = 3 SD, 1 FTRB and 2 RTB

    Entente planes = 3 SD, 3 FTRB, 1 RTB (I used Nieuport 17 as a TIE fighter but the low damage means easily FRTB)

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDragon View Post
    I used a couple of scenario rule amplifications.

    1) planes outside the cutting can fire into the cutting if at peg heights 3 or 4 and within 1/2 ruler of the cutting. They can still fire a ruler’s length at a plane in the cutting as long as the plane is within a 1/2 ruler of the cutting edge - ie I didn’t play it that the LoS had to cross the cutting edge within the 1st ruler half but one could play it that way.

    2) planes at peg height 1 or 2 (nap of the earth flight?) outside the cutting are restricted the same as the ground weapons

    3) planes in the cutting had to climb to exit the cutting - so a plane a peg 2 would be at 3 outside the cutting and a plane at 1 would end up at peg 2 outside the cutting. The exception was the cutting end - planes can exit the cutting without a climb card if they fly straight over the tunnel entrance. It’s a deemed an implicit climb so the increase their peg height by 1. This is to make simple and allow planes bomb at height 1 without running into the tunnel entrance.
    Like the idea of firing into the cutting - though thought you'd have to be at pegs 1, or, 2 outside the cutting to do so - which would be pegs 3,4 inside the cutting - all of it is n.o.e flying as far as I'm concerned ! Thinking to give it a go later, hope it goes better than I think it will.

    "He is wise who watches"

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Like the idea of firing into the cutting - though thought you'd have to be at pegs 1, or, 2 outside the cutting to do so - which would be pegs 3,4 inside the cutting - all of it is n.o.e flying as far as I'm concerned ! Thinking to give it a go later, hope it goes better than I think it will.
    The higher the plane is the easier it would be to see into the cutting. I had tried to clarify with Neil if peg 1 outside = peg 3 inside. Neil's answer implied that peg 1 = peg 1 inside or outside to keep it simple. The only difference was that if a plane was at peg 1 or 2 and approached the cutting it could declare it was 'in the cutting'. That created more questions and I thought it best to make the clarifications above for my purpose.

    One thought about 'declaring' to be in the cutting was to allow a plane to then orient itself along the line of the cutting without playing cards to somehow align with the cutting - darn difficult to do with the cards.

    So to me 'in the cutting' was more a declaration than a question of manoeuvre cards. Along that line it seems to me that Neil's intention is that planes could also 'declare' to be outside the cutting (i.e., can leave without playing a climb card), but I added the twist above which only affects planes at peg 1 in the cutting.

    As for NOE - I consider peg 1 and 2 really close NOE, 3 maybe NOE and peg 4 normal level 1 flying (sort of NOE? at 250 m)

    As a guess, it's probably something like:

    Peg 4 = 250m
    Peg 3 = 100m
    Peg 2 = 25m
    Peg 1 = 10m

    Article here on railway embankments:

    https://www.arct.cam.ac.uk/Downloads...p.33-to-49.pdf

    A 25m embankment wouldn't be extraordinary.

    In any event, the bombers come in at a given height so I would assume the scouts would come in at the height that gave them the best advantage - ie can see into the cutting if that applies and with height advantage.
    Last edited by ShadowDragon; 07-28-2019 at 11:13.

  35. #35

    Skafloc's Avatar Northern Command Squadron Leader.
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    As I have previously clarified. If you fly in the trench, ie can only be hit by guns in the trench or the gun above the tunnel entrance you fly at peg height 1 or 2. If yoy follow the line of the trench or any other line and are at peg 3 or 4 you can only be targeted by guns outside the trench, which again includes the gun above the tunnel entrance.

    Enemy scouts who fly in the trench ie peg height 1 or 2 means the guns and only the guns in the trench, stop firing whilst they are in the trench.

    At peg 3 enemy scouts can still fir at your planes at peg height 2 only but tren h guns keep firing.

    For trench substitute cutting or railway cutting.

    PEGS DO NOT EQUAL ANY HEIGHT MEASUREMENT OTHER THAN PEG 1, PEG 2, PEG 3 OR PEG 4.

    Any aircraft in the cutting/trench at PEG height 1 or 2 can limb out of the cutting using a climb card as normal or if at PEG 1 climb to peg 2 or PEG 2 climb to PEG 3 using the immelmann card.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    As I have previously clarified. If you fly in the trench, ie can only be hit by guns in the trench or the gun above the tunnel entrance you fly at peg height 1 or 2. If yoy follow the line of the trench or any other line and are at peg 3 or 4 you can only be targeted by guns outside the trench, which again includes the gun above the tunnel entrance.

    Enemy scouts who fly in the trench ie peg height 1 or 2 means the guns and only the guns in the trench, stop firing whilst they are in the trench.

    At peg 3 enemy scouts can still fir at your planes at peg height 2 only but tren h guns keep firing.

    For trench substitute cutting or railway cutting.

    PEGS DO NOT EQUAL ANY HEIGHT MEASUREMENT OTHER THAN PEG 1, PEG 2, PEG 3 OR PEG 4.

    Any aircraft in the cutting/trench at PEG height 1 or 2 can limb out of the cutting using a climb card as normal or if at PEG 1 climb to peg 2 or PEG 2 climb to PEG 3 using the immelmann card.
    That’s the way I played it, Neil. Ground weapons in the trench only fire at planes in the trench; ground weapons outside the trench only fire at planes outside the trench. Planes in the trench (peg 1 or 2) can climb out with just a single climb card.

    The differences:

    1) A rule for when planes ‘outside’ the trench can fire at planes in the ‘trench’ and vice versa. I used a rule that planes at 3 or 4 can fire at planes within the trench if the higher plane is within a minimum distance of the trench (half ruler). That makes sense from the geometry of line of sight. If that’s not the case I don’t understand the logic. Sorry. I’m not trying to be difficult.

    2) a plane doesn’t need to play a climb card to exit at the end of the tunnel. That’s just to avoid the complications of simultaneously climbing and bombing a very small target. It doesn’t really matter as once the bomb is dropped that plane is done. I just did that rule to not have to think about coordinating bombing and climbing.

    Sorry if that’s not what you’ve intended but I’ve already played the game with the above.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    PEGS DO NOT EQUAL ANY HEIGHT MEASUREMENT OTHER THAN PEG 1, PEG 2, PEG 3 OR PEG 4
    I was just musing. Those mused measurements make no difference to playing be game.

  38. #38

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    Following this on my phone is hard, now I understand what you're getting at. Working out Peg 1 in the cutting and Peg 1 out side....would only work if you are playing the cutting as 3D, ie terrain with actual physical on the table depth. I was working on the assumption that the playing area would be flat, so any aircraft at peg 1 or 2 would be in the trench/cutting those at 3 or 4 outside.

    An aircraft could not be at Peg height 1 or 2 and be outside the cutting/trench line.
    An aircraft at 3 or 4 could not be inside the 'walls' of the cutting.

    For game purposes peg height 1 and 2 are for in the cutting only.
    AA guns and MG's can fire at 1,2,3 or 4 peg height without restriction other than 2 rulers length away. (Of course depending on where the gun is situated, in or out of the trench/cutting)
    I should have stated no firing into the Trench/cutting by aircraft unless flying along the line of the trench/cutting.

    But as always rules or house rules are not cast in stone. Play this anyway you see fit as long as you enjoy the scenario, or not as the case may be.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  39. #39

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    I played it out on a 3D table - of a sort - the AAMG with 2 ruler range, too many +1's from consec fire & height advantage = first plane lost in three phases... game saved only by randomly rolling a defender into the trench at peg 2 which stopped the guns firing.
    To save on admin I suggest that if successful that you name that crew & flight from your roster as part of a bigger raid & write it up accordingly.

    "He is wise who watches"

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Following this on my phone is hard, now I understand what you're getting at. Working out Peg 1 in the cutting and Peg 1 out side....would only work if you are playing the cutting as 3D, ie terrain with actual physical on the table depth. I was working on the assumption that the playing area would be flat, so any aircraft at peg 1 or 2 would be in the trench/cutting those at 3 or 4 outside.

    An aircraft could not be at Peg height 1 or 2 and be outside the cutting/trench line.
    An aircraft at 3 or 4 could not be inside the 'walls' of the cutting.

    For game purposes peg height 1 and 2 are for in the cutting only.
    AA guns and MG's can fire at 1,2,3 or 4 peg height without restriction other than 2 rulers length away. (Of course depending on where the gun is situated, in or out of the trench/cutting)
    I should have stated no firing into the Trench/cutting by aircraft unless flying along the line of the trench/cutting.

    But as always rules or house rules are not cast in stone. Play this anyway you see fit as long as you enjoy the scenario, or not as the case may be.
    I think we are on the same page now, Neil.

    My house rule of “within a half ruler” was my way of defining “flying along the line of the trench”. It’s too difficult / time consuming - at least for me (and if using AI) - to try and get a scout exactly lined up with the trench line.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc
    An aircraft could not be at Peg height 1 or 2 and be outside the cutting/trench line.
    An aircraft at 3 or 4 could not be inside the 'walls' of the cutting.

    For game purposes peg height 1 and 2 are for in the cutting only.
    AA guns and MG's can fire at 1,2,3 or 4 peg height without restriction other than 2 rulers length away. (Of course depending on where the gun is situated, in or out of the trench/cutting)
    I should have stated no firing into the Trench/cutting by aircraft unless flying along the line of the trench/cutting.
    OK, it took me a few read-throughs, but I think I finally got it. I really don't know why; your statements are clear enough...maybe I really am getting senile.

  42. #42

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    Now that some things are clear with respect to peg height these are the two basic questions I had. I've played my game but will post them here in case others have these issues.

    "An aircraft could not be at Peg height 1 or 2 and be outside the cutting/trench line."

    Question 1: What happens if a plane at peg 1 or 2 moves out side the line of the trench (i.e., crosses the trench wall) without playing a climb card? Do they crash - as per the rules? If they do not crash, then do they automatically move to peg 3 - and if so is it true for both peg 1 and peg 2 planes? [Note this question originally got mixed up with the possibility of planes colliding with the walls while shooting - this was more just me musing? The serious question was about crashing against the walls if at peg 1 or 2 while moving from inside to outside the trench without climbing.

    Question 2: Assuming planes at peg 1 or 2 crash if leaving the trench without climbing this creates problems for the final bombing of the target. It's difficult to successfully bomb AND successfully climb out of the trench - so more of a suicide run. I'll demonstrate in pictures:

    1st Picture - a plane bombs while using a non-stall (and a non-climb) manoeuvre (most likely a 'straight' in the trench) and then attempts to climb. The picture shows the bombing phase and the subsequent climbing phase. The plane cannot play another climb card after the first (nor a stall for that matter - 2 steep cards in a row). A plane at peg 1 will crash as it will only be at peg 2 after the climb. A plane at peg 2 is safe as it will be one manoeuvre card further back and have climbed to peg 3.

    Note: my bomb card may be too small but the difference is 6mm - not enough to make a difference.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    2nd picture - a plane bombs while using a stall manoeuvre. It will not be able to use a climb card in the next phase (2 steep manoeuvres in a row) and will crash against the walls regardless if at peg 1 or 2 - even though the peg 2 plane will be further back by 1 stall card.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Not shown - a climb card is not a stall - so according to the rules a straight card is used for the bombing and the result will be the same as in picture 1 but with the climb and straight manoeuvre cards for the plane reversed. A plane at peg 2 can exit safely as it's at peg 3 after the climb but the plane at peg 1 cannot as it will only be at peg 2. I haven't shown this (maybe I will go back and get a picture of this).

    Picture 3 - This picture shows what would happen if we used a special rule that when bombing while climbing the bomb uses a stall card (special type of bomb?). Note that the plane at peg 2 can escape safely but one at peg 1 is trapped and will crash as it's only at peg 2 after the climb.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The conclusion is that, if existing the trench at peg 1 or 2 causes a crash, a plane at peg 1 cannot successfully bomb and exit. A plane at peg 2 can successfully bomb but not if using a stall card during the bombing phase.

    The above show why I used the special rule that planes flying out the end of the trench do so successfully even if not using a climb card. This only applies at the tunnel end and not the side walls.

  43. #43

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    I agree with all of the above, I'll leave it to players to play it out following the a plane can climb out of the trench at peg height 1 or 2 and not collide with the trench if moving straight forward, if trying to turn left or right then immediately place the aircraft on peg 3 and then play the turn.

    I hope that clears that one up, I was thinking along the lines of this being real low level stuff that the climb is about 50 feet max and not 50m+. I think you officianados get what I mean. If not employ a good deal of SWAG and be happy.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  44. #44

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    My see through bomb card is in the file section somewhere, couldn't find it to link in by phone, apologies. It is the correct size.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    My see through bomb card is in the file section somewhere, couldn't find it to link in by phone, apologies. It is the correct size.
    I appreciate you following all of this by mobile phone! Thanks.

    Interesting scenario that requires a group strategy versus individual plane manoeuvring. I lost a lot of planes but thankfully the injury/evasion dice were kind and no KIA or POW. Mind you I have just 3 scout pilots for the next mission - 4 if the Flik CO pilots a plane. So thanks for thinking this one up.

  46. #46

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    Big desk top actually switched on last night, had a think then went nope....... until Brexit is sorted and I get regular upgrades I'm not working.

    No chance there then!
    See you on the Dark Side......

  47. #47

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    I decided to put this here instead of cluttering up Dave's AAR. (Note: TRIGGER WARNING - avert your eyes or seek the assistance of the proper health authorities if this stuff is too much)

    This was my rationale for coming up with a simple rule for when planes at pegs 3 or 4 could shoot into the cutting.

    The following picture shows a steep sided cutting with enough width at the bottom to accommodate a plane - I'm assuming that that cutting would need to be at least twice the plane width in order for a plane to fly. - and probably that's even true for the Star Wars movie. The slope of the cutting is 70 degrees - which is darned steep in real life but not the vertical slope of the Death Star but that only changes the angle somewhat. I will do the calculations below assuming the walls are vertical. In any event, it's clear that a gun on the surface cannot see into the cutting unless it's on the lip of the cutting while a plane at some distance can see into the cutting.

    I'm sure everyone does understand this but here it is anyway.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If the cutting wall is vertical, I assumed a height of 25m which is quite tall for a cutting (that means the walls are a vertical rock walls). I've assumed a cutting width of 25m to accommodate a plane with a wing span of 12m. The plane is nearly on the bottom and in the centre. In order to shoot at the plane in the cutting the plane outside should be able to see most of the plane - so about 10m from the wall which would mean about 75% of the plane in the cutting must be visible.

    As Neil has stated there's no stated heights associated with the peg heights. However, altitude 1 is up to 250m. With that in mind this is how far away from the cutting edge a plane at various heights (above the surface outside the cutting) can be and still see a plane on the bottom.

    1) Height 25m - distance from cutting edge = 10m
    2) Height 50m - distance from cutting edge = 20m
    3) Height 100m - distance from cutting edge = 30m
    4) Height 250m - distance from cutting edge = 90m

    Now that's way too much fiddly calculating to do in a game. I wanted something simple. I looked to me that something about equal to the width of the cutting would be about right and my cutting was about 1/2 a ruler width. So that's what I used. I could have got into the difference of different peg heights in the cutting and those outside the cutting but I left it simply as 1/2 ruler for all planes outside the cutting shooting at planes inside the cutting (and, of course, vice versa). You could do something different, such as a part of the base of the outside plane must overlap with part of the cutting....or all of the base must overlap the cutting....or if you want no planes outside can shoot at planes inside.

    One motivation I had for doing this is that I still have a difficult time getting a plane to line up and fly along a given line. I hadn't thought of simply declaring a plane to be 'in the cutting' if it's base overlapped the cutting at a minimum angle of flight with respect to the cutting (i.e., towards one end or the other of the cutting) and then simply adjusting the plane. I didn't do this because - surprisingly I thought with the silencing of the flak and AAMG in the cutting that it would make the mission too easy. Allowing planes within 1/2 rule and outside the cutting actually reproduced the movie version quite nicely.

    Those are just my thoughts. I certainly don't suggest they are what Neil intended and I don't insist anyone does the same. This is just offered as one approach.

    Again, apologies for bleeding eyes and the lack of will to live. I get the point - no discussion for clarification - I guess I've worked too long with the military of various nations so that I see the myriad of ways things can be interpreted / misinterpreted.

  48. #48

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    Some images of the Tavannes tunnel you are bombing.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Map showing contours around tunnel area
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    Tunnel entrance after 2nd tunnel was dug
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    Same but from above

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    Single tunnel entrance after severe shelling around Fort Tavannes/Vaux

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    Single tunnel entrance from above.

    Hope this gives you an idea of the terrain your flying over and into or through or along.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  49. #49

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    Neil that's a very impressive level of historical detail you've gone to, thanks for taking so much trouble.

    Now where did the Ti fighters come from.

  50. #50

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    4 turns played and having my usual luck with the card draws ...


    Observations of the game so far:

    1)
    I don't think there should be a +1 for shots with a difference in pegs.
    I ended up with too many, both mine vs. AA and the Bulldogs vs. mine.
    The difference between "pegs" as opposed to altitude levels does not justify them.

    2)
    I think the Eagles need at least 1 escort.
    My first wave of 3 Rolands has just one remaining (that cannot drop his bomb due to positioning caused by a pilot wound) and I have 4 Entente aircraft for him to try and elude.
    (although one of the DH.2s has FRTB-E - which will be replaced as soon as he exits )

    3)
    Having to wait until all of my first wave is off the table before I can bring on wave 2.
    Do the Entente planes just hover around waiting for more?
    Or do they exit and return when the next wave makes it to the table?

    4)
    AA cannot fire if there are any friendly planes in the cutting.
    Although this does benefit me, I think that for the AAMG there would have to be a friendly aircraft between the gun and the target aircraft.
    For Archie the rule should be they can't fire if within half a ruler of a friendly target.
    Actually the special rules for AA do state that in point 13, so I think that makes more sense.

    I did let them fire once because there were no Entente between the gun(s) - seemed ridiculous - especially for the AAMG.
    And speaking of AAMG ...

    5)
    Two rulers seems a bit much when the aircraft only get one.

    Don't get me wrong. It's not all negative - I do like the challenge of the game.

    But the bombing still seems like rockets ....

    Although I have yet to drop any.


    I like the look of the board with the different scenery levels, and it's definitely a daunting task, so I want to see it through.
    I was planning on bringing in named crews in the next bunch, but now I am not so sure ...

    Hoping to see some confirmations and comments from you chaps before I start Part Deux ...

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