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Thread: AAR OTT DYM - Mission 6 - Where's My Gunner

  1. #1

    Default AAR OTT DYM - Mission 6 - Where's My Gunner

    OTT – Daring Young Men Campaign
    The Italian Front – 22 November 1917

    The original scenario, by Vagabond, is set on the Western Front in February 1916 and can be read here:
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...16-by-Vagabond

    Situation: Three days after German and Austro-Hungarian forces were halted at the Piave River by the Italian Army – ending the Battle of Caporetto. French and British forces are starting to arrive and to bolster their Italian allies. German agents have discovered that the British are using the port of Marina di Ravenna to debark close to the front lines. Entente naval, naval air and army air forces are deployed so that any air attack from the east or north-east would suffer heavy losses. Forces defending against an attack from the north are relatively light due to the long range. Further Entente defences in and around Marina di Ravenna are comparatively light aw well.

    The German staff have calculated that a Halberstadt CL.II, stripped of weapons as well as the observer, from Pergine aerodrome would have the range and carry sufficient ordanance to disrupt the British debarkation. The scouts stationed at Pergine would have sufficient range to allow an escort to accompany the Halberstadt’s one way but would likely have to depart before the Halberstandt’s complete their mission. Therefore a second escort would be sent slightly later to rendezvous with the Halberstadt’s and escort them back to Perine aerodrome. Thus was born Opeation Bussard (Operation Buzzard).

    The Halberstadt’s at Pergine belonged to the German Luftstreitskräfte detachment assigned to Flik 55J bis commanded by Hauptmann Michael von Taaffe.

    The Halberstadt’s will be flown by Ltn Rudolf Dessler, the flight commander, and Ltn Albrecht Thoma. Flik 55J bis pilot Wolfgang von Augustin, the Flik’s first ace, will provide the outbound escort. Due to the hazards of the mission and concerns about the maturity of the young von Augustin, the Hauptmann has decided to fly the 2nd, inbound escort aeroplane.

    ************************************************
    Combat Report -23 November 1917
    Confidential

    To Oberst Otto von Sniggleswurst, Air Liaison Staff, Army Corps Headquarters
    Leutnant Albrecht Thoma and I departed Pergine aerodrome before sunrise on the 22nd of November to execute Operation Bussard. We were escorted by an Austrian pilot from Flik 55J bis. We reached Marina di Ravenna just as the sun was rising. The port looked calm and no enemy defending aeroplanes were evident. The targets, as described by our Intelligence Service, were perfectly laid out for a text-book bombing attack. Ltn Thoma released three of our six bombs in succession and hit six of the nine targets including the English cruiser. We then started a turn for a return bombing run to attack the remaining three targets or any of the other six targets to ensure their destruction. It was about this time that I was attacked by an English scout which our escort had proved incapable of intercepting. Despite the danger I kept focussed on the mission and dropped my remaining bombs destroying 2 of the remaining three targets. Ltn Thoma dropped one bomb on the English cruiser to ensure its destruction. I am very sure that this vessel lies at the bottom of the harbour. Ltn Thoma was not in a position to attack the 9th target. Being short of fuel for a further run he signalled that he would drop his bombs on one of the targets he hit in the first bombing run. Neither the enemy flak or the enemy scout disrupted out successful mission. Out ally claims to have shot down the English scout but I cannot confirm this. A completely successful mission for our Imperial army with 8 of the 9 targets completely destroyed. Our Austrian escorts were of minimal assistance in this operation.

    Ltn Rudolf Dessler
    Flight Commander

    ************************************************
    Combat Report – 25 November 1917
    Confidential

    To Commodore D. E. D. Headley-Leadbottom, Port Commander, Royal Navy
    As you are aware we were surprised by an attack of three Hun aeroplanes – two light bombers and one escort. As I was awake early I was able to get my machine In the air at once. I evaded the Hun escort but was unable to intercept the bombers until after they had completed their first bombing run. I followed one as they had separated to loop back on our port installations and supplies. The Hun bomber was moving across my field of fire and the dim morning light made deflection shooting difficult. However, eventually smoke began to pour from the bomber’s engine, but Hun pilot managed to keep his machine flying. Whilst I did not bring down either bomber, my attack disrupted their 2nd bombing run which was not nearly as successful as their 1st run – both dropped their remaining bombs and ran for home. I could not follow as the escort had managed to sit on my tail and severely damaged my Pup. I turned for the base when a 2nd Hun escort appeared. We exchanged shots. I gave as good as I got but the Hun damaged the rudder of the pup and with the damage done by the other Hun I couldn’t keep the pup going and landed the in a field. I fortunate my injuries were minor but I’m sorry that the Pup will have to be written off.

    Capt Charles Kingsley, Marina di Ravenna Detachment, RNAS

    ************************************************
    Letter – 24 November 1917
    In personal confidence

    Josef von Maier, Commander Flik 55J

    We had quit an outing. The Germans have had this crazy scheme to bomb the English in Marina di Ravenna which, as you know, is at the extreme edge of our flying range. They remove all weapons from 2 of their light bombers, loaded them up with bombs and flew off with just the pilot. I provided an escort from my Flik – young Wolfgang. He needs maturing but he’s had a run of good luck. I followed after an interval as Wolfgang wouldn’t be able to linger long over the target area and likely not be able to escort the Germans back. I need not have bothered. When I arrived I could see that the Germans had a very good first run – with their typical efficiency, but the English managed to get a scout up and it seemed that the Germans panicked, dropped their bombs willy-nilly and headed for home – with Wolfgang escorting them. Before departing the port the Englander and I exchanged shots. Young Wolfgang must have managed to put a few holes in the English scout since my brief burst forced the Englander from the sky. With that, I headed for home with the warm glow of our enemies burning stores behind me.

    Your friend in arms,

    Michael von Taaffe

    ************************************************

    Playing Notes:

    I used burning markers when the bombs hit – after a few turns I decided to remove the markers for partial hits after a turn but I didn’t do this at first. The markers were placed on the target card for direct hits and beside the card for partial hits. For the photos I cover the markers with icons – I used an explosion when the bomb hit, a fire for direct hits and smoke for a partial hit.

    It did get confusing at times with target cards, several bomb cards in flight, manoeuvre cards and plane baes all competing for the same space. I got confused with phases which I realized on turn 2.2 (you can see when this was in the photos as there’s plane card on the mat that I used to re-do the move but forgot to pick up before re-taking the photo for that turn). When I realized the mistake I had to back track the moves to turn 1 (forget which phase) and re-take the pictures. However, when reviewed the photos I see I forgot to re-take the one for turn 1.3 and was left with the wrong one which has 2 bombs which shouldn’t be there.

    The defending scouts were determined random from ones I hadn’t played yet – 2 Pups, 1 SE5a, 1 Camel. Pup was rolled for 1st up.

    The action should be fairly straight forward to follow – a bomb run out, turn around, a confused bomb run back and head for home with the Sopwith Pup eventually getting into position behind the one Halberstadt and the Oeffag 153 escort following the Pup. There are a few pictures where the Pup doesn’t shoot because it’s too close to the Halberstadt (overlapping bases).

    ************************************************

    A photo history provided without comment - by Times Correspondent Frank Albert Kelsey Edward Gnus.

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    A fun scenario – thanks, John. Not too long. Just 8 turns.

    Final Score = 4 X 2 for direct hits plus 4 X 1 for partial hits = 12 points
    Last edited by ShadowDragon; 06-06-2019 at 18:56.

  2. #2

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    Butcher's Bill

    Ltn Wolfgang von Augustin – Oeffag 153 / RTB / 0 kills

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    Hptm Michael von Taaffe – Oeffag 53 / RTB / 1 kill

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    Ltn Rudolf Dessler – Halberstadt CL.II / RTB / 2 direct hits, 3 partial hits (one partial hit a double bomb)

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    Ltn Albrecht Thoma – Halberstadt CL.II / RTB / 2 direct hits, 1 partial hit plus 2 partial hits on targets already hit (one of these a double bomb)

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    Capt Charles Kingsley – Sopwith Pup / SD FT / 0 kills
    CC – Rolled 9 = wounded; rolled 1 = skip 1 mission

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    Final Score = 4 X 2 for direct hits plus 4 X 1 for partial hits = 12 points

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    Last edited by ShadowDragon; 06-06-2019 at 18:58.

  3. #3

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    That's remarkably accurate bombing, well done, Teutonic efficiency at it's best. Every bomb hit a target, I didn't expect it to work out like that, I'm obviously useless at bombing as I'm only expecting to get 2 or 3 directs and the same number of partial hits. I can see I'm going to have to concentrate more.

    Charles in the Pup was really unlucky, with some fancy flying he followed up with lousy shooting, all those +1's going to waste and then when he got right up close for the kill he was too close. Aggghhh.

    Great write up at the start, I like the three different versions of the same thing, works very well. and the graphics are up to your usual high standard. It's a shame the Ares mats are so busy, it does make it harder to see the planes, I thought at one point both the bombers had done an Immelmann turn and were coming back on the same flight path but looking closer they weren't., which I'm pleased about because I don't think a loaded bomber should be able to do that.

    Excellent.

    Bugger - sorry Rep gun exploded.

  4. #4

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    Nicely done Paul, your Pup looks super in it's two tone livery

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    That's remarkably accurate bombing, well done, Teutonic efficiency at it's best. Every bomb hit a target, I didn't expect it to work out like that, I'm obviously useless at bombing as I'm only expecting to get 2 or 3 directs and the same number of partial hits. I can see I'm going to have to concentrate more.

    Charles in the Pup was really unlucky, with some fancy flying he followed up with lousy shooting, all those +1's going to waste and then when he got right up close for the kill he was too close. Aggghhh.

    Great write up at the start, I like the three different versions of the same thing, works very well. and the graphics are up to your usual high standard. It's a shame the Ares mats are so busy, it does make it harder to see the planes, I thought at one point both the bombers had done an Immelmann turn and were coming back on the same flight path but looking closer they weren't., which I'm pleased about because I don't think a loaded bomber should be able to do that.

    Excellent.

    Bugger - sorry Rep gun exploded.
    Yes, the busy Ares mats are annoying - not just for the photos but even for game play when you've got 9 target cards, 2 flak cards and perhaps 4 bomb cards all in play at one plus trying to manoeuvre aircraft that are bumping into each other. However, the city and industrial mats made the most sense for the scenario.

    Although the Halberstadt's have an Immelmann turn I decided that they should not be allowed an Immelmann with bombs on board. I didn't see any rule - official or house one - that didn't allow that. Perhaps there is and I missed it.

    Charles was unlucky not getting a kill - and that snit, Rudolf, was lucky. He should have gone down. Charles was also unlucky with being shot down...Michael von Taaffe just managed to get just enough on the last possible chance.

    As for bombing efficiency...it really helped to have the discussion with Pete which made me realize I had to drop far sooner than I would have otherwise. Note that with the targets in a line and the bombers initially placed to run down that line, it's pretty easy to get 85% direct or partial hits - assuming, for the Halberstadt's (V deck) that you don't do something silly like play a stall on your first move and drop immediately or drop too late so that you miss all targets (i.e., you must drop your last bomb before crossing the 2nd target). The total distance from the shortest (earliest?) partial hit on the 1st target to the longest (latest?) partial hit on the 3rd target is 39.3 cm. You can only get a complete miss if the bomb card ends neatly between the targets - which is only 3 cm distance for each gap for 6 cm in total (or 15% of the 39.3 cm). There will be variations depending on how precisely target cards are placed or planes manoeuvred. I noted that both planes should have been executing identical turn arounds but by the time they finished they were in very different positions. The return bombing run is what I'd expect to do without any pre-planning - 6 bombs dropped but only 2 partial hits on new targets and no direct hits. Part of the problem is that I should have taken an extra full move to turn around for the final bomb run, but if I had done that likely one Halberstadt would have been shot down by the Pup. I though pre-planning the initial run was reasonable given the calculations that would have gone into planning the raid and assuming that intelligence and maps were accurate - false targets for faulty intelligence - now there's a double event mission where success on an initial recce will influence the success of a follow up bombing raid (i.e., the more successful the initial mission the fewer false targets in the mix).

    I count the double hits as wasted bombs so it's really only 8 hitting out of 12. So it just looks more successful than it really was - hence the variations in the story in terms of how successful.

    A big lesson for defenders - don't place your facilities / targets to close together and not in a line (zig-zags anyone?).

    The ship I think is Skytrex or something like that (definitely not GHQ) and it's the armoured cruiser HMS Black Prince. She was actually sunk at Jutland in 1916 but this is an alternate universe. If I had a sea and coastal mat it would have been cool to do 9 ship targets at anchor.

    The write up was driven by the fact that my player controlled aircraft (Wolfgang's) didn't really have much to write about and I ended up doing more with the bombers. I should have intervened in the AI for the Pup and put in an extra stall but I didn't realize until I was into the turn that the Pup would overrun the Halberstadt. Another lucky escape for Rudolf.

    No problem with exploded Rep guns - fitting as there was only one gun jam in the whole game and very few special hits - no explosions except at the wrong time, no fires and no injuries. Unusual.
    Last edited by ShadowDragon; 06-07-2019 at 05:50.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Nicely done Paul, your Pup looks super in it's two tone livery
    I was happy to get the Dunning Pup as it looks nice but clearly the Camel or SE5a would have given the attackers more trouble. The Pup's manoeuverability was a little bit wasted on tailing a bomber.

  7. #7

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    By the way....in case you've missed it, the photo journalist's name, if you substitute initials for the given names = F.A.K.E. Gnus which is in keeping with different perspectives on the 'truth' especially when it comes to battle damage assessment and after action reports of participants.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDragon View Post
    ...Although the Halberstadt's have an Immelmann turn I decided that they should not be allowed an Immelmann with bombs on board. I didn't see any rule - official or house one - that didn't allow that. Perhaps there is and I missed it..
    Optional rule "Full Load" p.38 RAP rules Paul. If a bomber still has half load aboard it is considered to have a full load & cannot Immel. It must also use two non steep cards rather than one between steep manoeuvres.
    Standard rules say you cannot drop bombs immediately after an Immel or split S.

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Optional rule "Full Load" p.38 RAP rules Paul. If a bomber still has half load aboard it is considered to have a full load & cannot Immel. It must also use two non steep cards rather than one between steep manoeuvres.
    Standard rules say you cannot drop bombs immediately after an Immel or split S.
    I confess, sir. I didn't actually do a search for the rule. It just hadn't registered when reading the bombing rules as I was focussed on the 'bombs in flight - how many turns?' issue. So when playing the game I just did what made sense versus paging through the rule book - I hate doing that when playing. So what made sense = the RAP rules, how cool is that?

  10. #10

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    Another nice job, Paul.

    I really like your 3D targets. They stand out from the map much better than mine will.
    I think I will use masking tape to hold my target cards in place.
    I know what you mean about the ‘busy’ Ares mats.
    I wish they would stick to one scale ...
    I think our discussions about bombing will definitely point out the distance needed to plan the drops.
    The whole reason I made my Excel chart was due to my serious under/over estimating the range when not at Level 2.
    Because this scenario specifically states that you cannot simply dive down to lower altitude Juan must have a good handle on when to release the bombs.

    REP inbound - it should hit on the third card

  11. #11

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    A superb little jaunt over the Italian lines old sport.
    I enjoyed every instant, but your Fake news is far too subtle for an old fart like me to really use my power of observation.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  12. #12

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    A Pup! Nice to see a Sopwith Pup in action!Too bad about the outcome of it, though.

    But a nice write-up on the mission.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenlizard View Post
    A Pup! Nice to see a Sopwith Pup in action!Too bad about the outcome of it, though.

    But a nice write-up on the mission.
    I was glad to roll for that Pup. Although not the best choice it could have had a better outcome with the damage it inflicted and it was oh so close to not being shot down. One thing I should have done was intervened in the AI charts to make more use of its manoeuvrability. Three close in shots at +1 would have given the Halberstadt something to think about.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    A superb little jaunt over the Italian lines old sport.
    I enjoyed every instant, but your Fake news is far too subtle for an old fart like me to really use my power of observation.

    Rob.
    At first I wasn't going to be so clever....then I decided to put in the initials and see if anyone would catch it with the similarity of 'gnus' to 'news'.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Another nice job, Paul.

    I really like your 3D targets. They stand out from the map much better than mine will.
    I think I will use masking tape to hold my target cards in place.
    I know what you mean about the ‘busy’ Ares mats.
    I wish they would stick to one scale ...
    I think our discussions about bombing will definitely point out the distance needed to plan the drops.
    The whole reason I made my Excel chart was due to my serious under/over estimating the range when not at Level 2.
    Because this scenario specifically states that you cannot simply dive down to lower altitude Juan must have a good handle on when to release the bombs.

    REP inbound - it should hit on the third card
    Thank goodness for the 3D targets. I'm sure I would have really lost the bubble without them....as it is I lost small bubbles a couple of times. A different take would have been to use a sea mat with all ship targets. I don't have a sea mat and I don't want the Sails of Glory one. I've got a company in mind that makes really nice mats but I need to save my bitcoins as they're pricey.

    FYI - I checked with google maps and Marina di Ravenna is just about half the range of the aircraft in question from where Pergine Valsugana aerodrome would have been. So that was cool and fit in with British aircraft - especially a RNAS one - defenders.

    My initial bomber run was calculated in advance which I thought was fair enough for a operation that would have had a lot of planning done for it. Of course, bumping target cards and variations in movement could put the calculations off - especially if there had been a defending scout in the way. Anyway, it all made me appreciate the value of good bombsights. And I have to say, that you're right, it does look like your shooting rockets at the targets. In reality the bomb would move forward but would fall behind the moving aircraft....and it would take 10-20 moves to hit the target. Not sure where the compromise should be, but we'll see how it goes after everyone plays the scenario.

  16. #16

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    The resulting discussions and searching brought out the time scale that really makes me think about the whole concept.
    A phase of 2 seconds really makes me wonder ....

    That means a gun jam and time to clear only takes 6 seconds
    Our 16 turn sagas cover 96 seconds???

    Needs work methinks ....

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    The resulting discussions and searching brought out the time scale that really makes me think about the whole concept.
    A phase of 2 seconds really makes me wonder ....

    That means a gun jam and time to clear only takes 6 seconds
    Our 16 turn sagas cover 96 seconds???

    Needs work methinks ....
    I’m currently reading Bruno Schmaling’s Royal Prussian Jagdstaffel 30. I noted this comment, “...8n the three weeks up to July 19th 210 operational flights (231 flight hours) with merely 51 aerial combats only two of these were rewarded with a victory.”

    Also there’s a record of Jasta pilots - 52 pilots flew with Jasta 30 - 10 killed in action, 5 killed in crashes, 5 POW and I think 5 wounded (listed as hospital or wounded - maybe wounded and not returned to duty?).

    And by the way as I have my pile of valom Fokker D.VII and Albatros D.Va you will be seeing Jasta 23 and 30 planes - eventually.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    The resulting discussions and searching brought out the time scale that really makes me think about the whole concept.
    A phase of 2 seconds really makes me wonder ....
    That means a gun jam and time to clear only takes 6 seconds
    Our 16 turn sagas cover 96 seconds???
    Needs work methinks ....
    I dunno, you can fire 50-60+ rounds in 6 seconds, depending on the weapon rof; you can fix a stoppage (jam) in a second or two if it only requires working the bolt (noting all jams are fixable in game). https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...axim-Stoppages

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I dunno, you can fire 50-60+ rounds in 6 seconds, depending on the weapon rof; you can fix a stoppage (jam) in a second or two if it only requires working the bolt (noting all jams are fixable in game). https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...axim-Stoppages
    As you know, Dave, my career has been military operational research which has involved a bit of combat modelling. From my experience I can tell you that 'time' is the most difficult dimension to represent. If you model things from the bottom up everything will happen far too quickly. It doesn't happen that way in real life because real lives are at stake. People are far more willing than players in games to draw back, take a pause and figure out 'what next'. What does that mean for designing a game? Basically, the issues are - is the player if faced with appropriate decisions for a game/model and for a game is it fun, if so then it's about right. Don't try to model things from fundamentals upwards, you'll never get there.

  20. #20

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    I know & I wasn't.

    "He is wise who watches"

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I know & I wasn't.
    that was meant as the general 'you' and not the specific 'you'. One should have used 'one' but that sounds like one is one of the Royals.

  22. #22

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    Either way the response is the same. Maybe the 'royal we' would've been more appropriate !
    I just wanted to make a point of what can be done in a few seconds... Oooh - just been buzzed by the Red Arrows !

    "He is wise who watches"

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDragon View Post
    that was meant as the general 'you' and not the specific 'you'. One should have used 'one' but that sounds like one is one of the Royals.
    That's when I use Juan so as not to sound too uppity.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Either way the response is the same. Maybe the 'royal we' would've been more appropriate !
    I just wanted to make a point of what can be done in a few seconds... Oooh - just been buzzed by the Red Arrows !
    You are right about what can be done in a few seconds. Leaving aside the frequency of gun jams in the game, a 'jam' can represent a variety of problems from something as simple as a lever that's been bumped and in the wrong position (a couple of seconds to realize it and a second to switch the lever) to something very complicated that would take quite awhile to fix. However, if a pilot is in a dogfight and can't fix the problem in seconds he won't hang around fixing it, he'll bug out as best he can.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    That's when I use Juan so as not to sound too uppity.
    Juan can appreciate that.

  26. #26

    Thumbs up

    Stunning visuals & 3 D scenery Paul.
    Love all the little Flame markers.
    Loved the AAR & pics.

  27. #27

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    Almost missed this AAR Paul - forgot you were posting under a different thread. Nicely done indeed. I wonder if using the Halberstadt CLII made a big difference to the bombing run. Certainly using a BE2c made it very difficult. The slower pace made the bombs likely to drop well short if dropped one after another like that. Unless I set up incorrectly, of course, which is quite possible knowing me Nice to see the scenario played out with the later war machines and really, really good to see a Pup in action

    Good result for your boys, for which congratulations are in order . Like the 3D models used on the official maps too. The church looks like a cathedral and the surrounding printed buildings could easily be flattened rubble buildings from other bombing and shelling. Very effective

    REP inbound

  28. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeemagnus View Post
    Almost missed this AAR Paul - forgot you were posting under a different thread. Nicely done indeed. I wonder if using the Halberstadt CLII made a big difference to the bombing run. Certainly using a BE2c made it very difficult. The slower pace made the bombs likely to drop well short if dropped one after another like that. Unless I set up incorrectly, of course, which is quite possible knowing me Nice to see the scenario played out with the later war machines and really, really good to see a Pup in action

    Good result for your boys, for which congratulations are in order . Like the 3D models used on the official maps too. The church looks like a cathedral and the surrounding printed buildings could easily be flattened rubble buildings from other bombing and shelling. Very effective

    REP inbound
    Thanks. Think I will put a post in the DYM forum with links to all my Italian Front scenarios. Then I can just update the links each time.

    I noticed that very same ‘cathedral’ in you latest DYM AAR. Think it’s Hovels but I can’t remember.

    The bomber speed would make a difference as you’ve really only got fixed movements in straights and stalls with stall only every other phase. Stalls are the same for all planes so it might be harder for some planes than others. With the Halberstadts there was no way to directly hit all three targets in the initial bomb run. Didn’t do the calculations for other manoeuvre decks.

    Nice to play the pup and a RNAS one at that. Glad Kingsley survived the latest mission 8. Will need the expeditionary chaps as I’ve run out of Italian scout pilots.



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