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Thread: Heinkel He.111 Weapons and Arcs

  1. #1

    Default Heinkel He.111 Weapons and Arcs

    I ran across a book today at the Comox Air Force Museum:

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    Note this paragraph:
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    The H-3 had a 20mm cannon in the forward ventral position? Really? Anyone else have a book with stats on the He.111?

    This diagram is for the H-16, and indicates a 20mm cannon in the forward nose position:
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    Dorsal turret with a 13mm MG, single 7.92mm MGs in the waist guns, and twin 7.92 MGs in the rear ventral position.

    The interesting thing about this series of drawings is that the second one indicates a rear-view mirror to aim the fixed tail 7.92 MG. Now, this is indicated as an H-6 model, but were the tail guns fired by the Pilot? The second drawing certainly seems to indicate that:
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    The third drawing of the H-16 model indicates the tail MG is a twin gun. Not pointed out in the drawing, but there appears to be the same rear-view mirror on this plane, as in the above drawing.

    This last image is for my records, for future reference in card production:
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    So, anybody want to jump in and add conflicting info for the H-3? Should the ventral MG actually be a 20mm Cannon?

    Other thread discussions on the He.111 and firing arcs:
    He.111 Firing Arcs
    He.111 H3 gun question
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  2. #2

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    Unfortunately, one of my best webpages, WW2 vehicles, is now gone
    Checking my files I find that I missed all the He.111 guns
    Sorry about this. I'll have to drag my files out and look
    Warplanes of the 3rd Reich says it had a very limited traverse, and with the low RoF was not useful. On the fly, I'd say have a straight 12 O'Clock 'arc', low only.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #3

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    In the Official Rules, it states that the Dorsal Gunner controls the Tail MG. The drawings appear to indicate that the Pilot fired the Tail MG. It actually makes some sense to me that a fixed firing gun would be controlled by the only person on the plane that could attempt to "aim" it.

    Change to the management card?

    Official ARES He.111 Management Card:
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    Dorsal Gunner (Arc 2) controls Arc 5 on this card. Not accurate?

    Maybe like this:
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    Last edited by OldGuy59; 05-30-2019 at 17:05.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  4. #4

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    OK. Looking for better line drawings of the He.111, I came across this:

    The Second nose drawing in the image below (facing Right), is an H-16 Straff conversion:
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    Under the nose and again toward the belly, I see two twin MG mountings. If the plane has more MGs on the right side of the plane, that means up to 10 7.92mm guns pointing forwards.

    Anyone heard of this version of He.111?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

    Thumbs up

    Mike, if you want a good perspective, contact Lino22 - he spent a lot of time on He.111 firing arcs and I must say he is probably the best choice for discussion.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    Mike, if you want a good perspective, contact Lino22 - he spent a lot of time on He.111 firing arcs and I must say he is probably the best choice for discussion.
    Jan doesn't have access to this account any more, and has changed to a new account. Honza?

    This thread isn't showing up unless I sign in. Odd.

    PS: I get it. This is a Moderator thread, not for open viewing. Darn. Do we want this on open viewing?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

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    I would say transfer it to the open forum.
    That way, we can get some more minds looking.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  8. #8

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    Thread now moved to "WGS: Historical Discussions", inviting all to participate.

    As I have continued to research this, a few things have come to light. There are waaaayyy too many variants of this aircraft, and even more sub-variants. The H model alone had official designations up to H-23. This doesn't include sub-sub "/R-n" variants, and optional field variations.

    The 13mm MG 131 was substituted for the MG 15 in a few locations, and the twin barrelled MG 81Z appeared in the beam and aft gondola positions in later variants. As early as the H-6 a FF-MG 20mm (which I will henceforth refer to as a 20mm cannon) showed up in the front ventral gondola, and even in the nose of some planes.

    Howver, with any of the MGs, because they are MGs of a certain calibre, within Wings of Glory the damage chits don't change. Or do they?

    The MG 131 has a 900 round per minute rate of fire, almost double the Browning M2 rate during WWII. Should it go up in damage chits? Especially if there were twin MG 131s (not in the He.111 H variants, but in fighter installations)?

    Variants:

    H-2: MG 15s in the nose, dorsal and rear ventral positions, augmented with two beam guns, one on each side, just above the ventral gondola, and one forward firing MG 15 in the ventral gondola. A fifth crewman was added to man the beam guns.

    H-3: More guns were again added, this time a second MG 15 in the upper nose (See the H-6 drawing below), with some variants having a belt-fed MG 17 installed in the tail. The front gondola gun was sometimes replaced by a 20mm cannon, used as an anti-shipping weapon.

    H-6: The most numerous version of the He 111. Around 1,800 were produced during 1941 and 1942. Defensive firepower was now provided by six 7.92mm machine guns, one in the nose, one in the dorsal mount, two in the ventral gondola (one forward and one aft) and two beam guns. A number of H-6s replaced the forward firing guns with 20mm cannon for use against ground targets. Another modification saw a single 7.92mm placed in the tail to discourage attack from the rear.

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    Note the extra MG in the upper right of the nose glazing. This is not mentioned in the paragraph above, but in the H-3 description. The fun of trying to track field mods.

    H-11: A 13mm MG 131 in the dorsal position, a 20mm cannon in the nose and a twin barrelled MG 81Z in the beam and aft gondola positions.

    H-16: As in Post 4 above, extra chin and belly mountings of twin MGs for straffing? It appears to have two on the right side, so it could have two more on the left. The nose MG appears to be a 20mm cannon in the drawing. I can't find any substantiation of this drawing in any reference I have read. It may be a concept drawing, never put into production or even trialed.

    H-18: As in Post 4 above, an undetermined number of H variants were fitted with the FuG 200 Hohentwiel. The radar was adapted as an anti-shipping detector for day or night operations.

    H-20: One 13mm MG 131 in the nose, ventral and dorsal positions, with the dorsal gun mounted in an electrically operated turret, and a MG 81Z in both beam positions.

    Sources:
    www.historyofwar.org - Heinkel He 111H
    Wikipedia - Heinkel He.111 Variants

    For now, unless an MG is replaced with a FF-MG 20mm, the damage should remain the same, regardless of single (7.92 or 13mm) or twin (7.92mm) guns. Discuss?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 06-04-2019 at 09:51.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Jan doesn't have access to this account any more, and has changed to a new account. Honza?
    ...
    You're right - I still have fixed his original account nickname.

  10. #10

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    I have that book too and it looks like this was a much modified aircraft. What about the torpedo bomber variant? Did it release both torpedos simultaneously or could it do it individually? Are there house rules for getting two torpedo hits from the same plane?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    I have that book too and it looks like this was a much modified aircraft. What about the torpedo bomber variant? Did it release both torpedos simultaneously or could it do it individually? Are there house rules for getting two torpedo hits from the same plane?
    Torpedo rules are best directed to Neil [Skafloc]. He has done extensive playtesting with WoG mechanics. As to the He.111 as a torpedo bomber, I haven't even gotten past the guns. Engines and armor are another area that require fine tuning, and are also very numerous.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    Torpedoes would be dropped in singley or at such short intervals as to be together.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  13. #13

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    The tail-cone machine gun was mounted on HEINKEL HE.111 H-3 to H-16 versions.
    On the crew management card, this MG number 5 is operated by a remote control by crewman III who also operates MG number 2.

    According to the first drawing below, some examples had additional machine gun in the tail-cone.
    It could be an optional rule : if MG number 5 is twin gun, it inflicts two A damage chits (at short and long range).

    Source : WarThunder

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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by monse View Post
    The tail-cone machine gun was mounted on HEINKEL HE.111 H-3 to H-16 versions.
    On the crew management card, this MG number 5 is operated by a remote control by crewman III who also operates MG number 2.

    According to the first drawing below, some examples had additional machine gun in the tail-cone.
    It could be an optional rule : if MG number 5 is twin gun, it inflicts two A damage chits (at short and long range).
    Not true. 2 7.92mm MGs is still a single A chit at both short and long.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus



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