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Thread: SPAD XII

  1. #1

    Default SPAD XII

    The SPAD XII aircraft is specifically mentioned in the 37 mm cannon section of the new rulebook. Is this a hint that a model of the SPAD XII will be appearing at some point? What do people think?

    Do you think there will also be equipment cards allowing the mounting of 37 mm cannons on other aircraft?

  2. #2

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    The elves and I are working with a "Doc Brown" attaching a pair of flux capacitors to a pair of OV-10 Broncos bristling with Red Bull armaments which should keep them red and running if and when they get here . . .

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    The SPAD XII aircraft is specifically mentioned in the 37 mm cannon section of the new rulebook. Is this a hint that a model of the SPAD XII will be appearing at some point? What do people think?

    Do you think there will also be equipment cards allowing the mounting of 37 mm cannons on other aircraft?
    I'm not sure what other aircraft could have mounted a cannon. Certainly not Nieuports or Hanriots. No rotaries either. Maybe an Se.5a or martinside buzzard.
    On the other side....I don't know. What amount of space was needed?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    The SPAD XII aircraft is specifically mentioned in the 37 mm cannon section of the new rulebook. Is this a hint that a model of the SPAD XII will be appearing at some point? What do people think?
    Do you think there will also be equipment cards allowing the mounting of 37 mm cannons on other aircraft?
    That would be nice if they did, I think it's unlikely we'll see a new model or cards but you never know, they might surprise us..
    Just reading the rules the suggestion is that the mounting of 37 mm cannons on other aircraft "was adopted on several other plane models" ..."replacing weaponry & engine of many machines at the front". Guess we'd need a list of likely candidates that could mount the HS engine used.
    I plan fielding my AFB-1's with cannon mounted. May need to use the new Fr deck as compensation if I can find/make one.

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    I was wondering whether Ares would allow 37 m cannon to be mounted on multi-engined bombers. There were experiments with a 2 pounder (40mm) Davis gun in the front cockpit of a Felixstowe Flying Boat and a 1.5 pounder (37mm) "COW" (Coventry Ordinance Works) gun on a Blackburn Perth Flying Boat.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    A Davis gun on a Felixstowe Flying Boat.

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    A COW gun on a Blackburn Perth Flying Boat.

  6. #6

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    I have a shot of one similar on a Zeppelin control car, hate to face a heat RAY in a Zeppelin filled with hydrogen . . . .

  7. #7

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    My understanding from playtesting is that there are options for adding rockets or 37mm cannons to any plane the player wishes. Once it has been done, it can be repeated, with some effort, on anything. Not necessarily realistic, but this is Sci-Fi, not history we are discussing here.

    We might see something like this in the Tripod Set: OldGuy59's WGF Equipment Cards Album - 37mm Cannon
    Or not.

    The above card I use with this: OldGuy59's WWI Unofficial Stats Cards - SPAD XII
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    I was wondering whether Ares would allow 37 m cannon to be mounted on multi-engined bombers. There were experiments with a 2 pounder (40mm) Davis gun in the front cockpit of a Felixstowe Flying Boat and a 1.5 pounder (37mm) "COW" (Coventry Ordinance Works) gun on a Blackburn Perth Flying Boat.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img315.jpg 
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ID:	266992
    A Davis gun on a Felixstowe Flying Boat.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P9120072.jpg 
Views:	83 
Size:	46.5 KB 
ID:	266993
    A COW gun on a Blackburn Perth Flying Boat.
    And then, there is this: OldGuy59's WGF Equipment Cards Album - 2 Pdr Gun
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    Hmmm. . . .May be at a safe distance . . . 20mm in a Zeppelin might work . . .

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    Or better yet, an aerial radio guided glide torpedo from a mile or 2 off and at 20,000 ft?

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    We may be in the Martian Blasting business afterall . . . if they ever show up . . .

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    I was wondering whether Ares would allow 37 m cannon to be mounted on multi-engined bombers...
    Think we can do as we please David but this thread will make your day - check out posts #12 & 18 - Ca.3's sporting various cannon, including a 37mm:

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...oni-Ca-3-stats
    Last edited by flash; 04-26-2019 at 00:32.

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

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    Having done a quick read, I would say that only planes that could be fitted with a Hispano-Suiza 8Cb V-8 engine could mount the 37mm or other cannon.
    It had some peculiar characteristics that allowed the mounting. The SPAD XII wasn't just a modified VII or XIII, it was a purpose-built derivation of the SPAD VII.
    That would probably leave just the Se-5a and possibly the Martinside Buzzard.
    I have no idea if the Germans had an equivalent engine.
    But, if you just want to plink martians with cannon, most later 2-seaters could carry the 2 cm Becker to fire downward, and the AEG IVk (mounting 2) and the Friedrichshaven G.IIIa.
    The British developed the 1˝ Pr C.O.W. gun which was fitted to some DH-4s to shoot upwards (to shoot down R-class bombers), but could probably be fitted to shoot downwards as well.
    Note: I'm pretty sure this subject has come up atleast twice, and once with the martians as targets.
    See this article on aerial cannons:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20090516...n_pioneers.htm

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Having done a quick read, I would say that only planes that could be fitted with a Hispano-Suiza 8Cb V-8 engine could mount the 37mm or other cannon.
    It had some peculiar characteristics that allowed the mounting. The SPAD XII wasn't just a modified VII or XIII, it was a purpose-built derivation of the SPAD VII.
    That would probably leave just the Se-5a and possibly the Martinside Buzzard....
    Scout wise that makes sense to keep a historical aspect to it Karl.
    The Austin-Ball could probably take it (mounted a Hispano-Suiza, 8-cylinder, liquid cooled, 200 hp) - the prototype/s could fly & maybe it goes into production ! At least it's a chance to use those odd types that never made it into production or were too late to make it into the fight in any significant way.
    The other machine that could be used would be the SPAD XIV - the floatplane version of the XII.

    "He is wise who watches"

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Scout wise that makes sense to keep a historical aspect to it Karl.
    The Austin-Ball could probably take it (mounted a Hispano-Suiza, 8-cylinder, liquid cooled, 200 hp) - the prototype/s could fly & maybe it goes into production ! At least it's a chance to use those odd types that never made it into production or were too late to make it into the fight in any significant way.
    The other machine that could be used would be the SPAD XIV - the floatplane version of the XII.
    Yes, I had forgotten the A-B had a lewis firing through the propeller shaft; it might have been able to take some type of cannon.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Yes, I had forgotten the A-B had a lewis firing through the propeller shaft; it might have been able to take some type of cannon.
    Karl
    Indeed though I was thinking it would take the Hispano-Suiza 8Cb V-8 engine of the SPAD XII. Look forward to giving it a run when the time comes.

    "He is wise who watches"

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Indeed though I was thinking it would take the Hispano-Suiza 8Cb V-8 engine of the SPAD XII. Look forward to giving it a run when the time comes.
    Possible; I can't find good specs(i.e. weight) on the 8Cb vs. the 8B. We could just assume.....

    I do have a couple shapeways A-Bs in the to be painted queue.
    Karl
    Last edited by Jager; 04-28-2019 at 13:55. Reason: sp
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Possible; I can't find good specs(i.e. weight) on the 8Cb vs. the 8B. We couls just assume.....

    I do have a couple shapeways A-Bs in the to be painted queue.
    Karl
    Not sure if this is helpful, but I found this on Wikipedia:

    8B (HS-35)
    150 kW (200 hp), compression ratio 5.3:1, geared at 0.75:1. The HS-36 was the 8B with a Lewis gun firing through the propeller boss.
    8BeC (HS-38)
    The 8Be fitted with the 37 mm (1.457 in) SAMC Model 37 cannon, or a similar weapon, firing through the propeller boss. A reduction gear equipped power-plant with a resultant clockwise rotation propeller like the 8B, produced 160 kW (220 hp) at 2,100 rpm. Two known weapons fitted were the SAMC with a rifled barrel and a smooth-bore cannon firing canister ammunition. The moteur-canon could fire a single shot at a time through the hollow drive shaft without propeller interference. This cannon mount required an "elevated" intake manifold design, bringing the intake "runners" straight off the inner surfaces of the cylinder banks to the updraft carburetor's plenum chamber. The engine was used on the SPAD S.XII.[5]

    Note: The designations 8C, 8Ca, and 8Cb are probably contractions of the real STAe designation which would be similar to 8BeC or 8BeCa. Cannon-equipped 160 kW (220 hp) 8s were given the company designation HS-38
    Source: Wikipedia.org - Hispano-Suiza 8
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Possible; I can't find good specs(i.e. weight) on the 8Cb vs. the 8B. We couls just assume.....
    I do have a couple shapeways A-Bs in the to be painted queue.
    Karl
    Not that worried about it - it should take a modified lump of similar size/shape to the one fitted, it's the gun that will make the difference to performance (and the steering). As I said, I'd probably run it with a Fr deck instead of the N deck once I get one or two same as the SPAD XII runs on a S deck instead of the A.

    "He is wise who watches"

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Not that worried about it - it should take a modified lump of similar size/shape to the one fitted, it's the gun that will make the difference to performance (and the steering). As I said, I'd probably run it with a Fr deck instead of the N deck once I get one or two same as the SPAD XII runs on a S deck instead of the A.
    True enough. And the weight difference would be less if they used a 1.59" Vickers-Crayford cannon; 47# vs. 190# for the SPAD XII. The 1# C.O.W. gun would be the same weight issue (200#).
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    True enough. And the weight difference would be less if they used a 1.59" Vickers-Crayford cannon; 47# vs. 190# for the SPAD XII. The 1# C.O.W. gun would be the same weight issue (200#).
    The Vickers-Crayford might be an option, it would certainly be lighter but not being semi-auto may lengthen the reload time. The Puteaux fitted to the SPAD was semi-auto & weighed about 104lb (47 kg) for gun and recoil mechanism (190lb includes the trails).
    The C.O.W gun would be too big & heavy for a fighter I would have thought, though an option on the bigger machines.
    Should be fun to use any of them on a Tripod !

    "He is wise who watches"

  20. #20

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    Being semi-auto, did it us a clip? My readings of it in action indicates it did not, and needed to be reloaded every shot.
    Googling has not helped me with this, though wiki mentions manual reloading and the breach mechanism.
    I used the wiki stated weight difference between the SPAD VII and XII, even though I knew the XII was a redesigned plane
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  21. #21

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    No, no clip on the Puteaux but it ejected the casing once fired whereas with the V-C you had to manually extract the casing before reloading, so it would be slower and harder to reload for a pilot.

    Tripped over another prototype that might be pressed into service using this weapon system:
    The Beardmore WB.V


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beardmore_W.B.V
    Apparently RNAS pilots considered it too dangerous to use but desperate times and all that !
    Last edited by flash; 04-30-2019 at 01:02.

    "He is wise who watches"



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