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Thread: Help required in indentifying a Jasta 7 Fokker D.VII

  1. #1

    Default Help required in indentifying a Jasta 7 Fokker D.VII

    I recenctly bought off ebay a copy of Cross and Cockade volume 25 No.3 for information regarding Jasta 7. On page 118 there is a photograph of aircraft from Jasta 7. The Fokker D.VII that I would like help identifying is between Ltn. Nebgen 's and Ltn. Jacob's Fokker D.VII's. The aircarft in question has a diagonal band edged white. I would like to know if possible what colour the band is, the pilots name. And if the wings were painted black or would they have lozenge?

  2. #2

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Identified as Willi Nebgen? No idea if this is correct.

    Source: RCUniverse.com - Non-Lozenge Scheme Fokker D.VII

    Or this:
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    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-02-2019 at 16:36.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Rolf View Post
    I recently bought off ebay a copy of Cross and Cockade volume 25 No.3 for information regarding Jasta 7. On page 118 there is a photograph of aircraft from Jasta 7. The Fokker D.VII that I would like help identifying is between Ltn. Nebgen 's and Ltn. Jacob's Fokker D.VII's. The aircraft in question has a diagonal band edged white. I would like to know if possible what colour the band is, the pilots name. And if the wings were painted black or would they have lozenge?
    Can you reproduce the picture here?

    The images with the green/white fuselage band are correct for Willi Nebgen, but the wing letter is not - my sources state that wing letters were only sported by pilots who had no personal markings/colours.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  4. #4

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    [ATTACH=CONFIG]295321
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Jasta 7.jpg  

  5. #5

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    Hello chaps I just need some help identifying the pilot who used the Fokker D.VII with the chequerboard band around the fuselage next to the one with the capitol L markings. I was sent this image from a chap off Face Book. He assured me that this image is of the Jasta 7 scouts at their aerodrome at St. Marguerite. If there is no information I will use the plane piloted by an unknown Jasta 7 pilot.

  6. #6

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    The only image I could find for a checkered band on a D.VII was for Franz Buchner in Jasta 13, for what Google's worth.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

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    The chap in question that shared this archive photograph mentioned that it came from Jacobs relatives. This is brilliant news as I now have another pilots scout to repaint.

  8. #8

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    This is the closest thing I can find online:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Just a thought. Because someone said that a photo belonged in a certain person's collection, doesn't mean it is from a specific Jasta. Is there any way to tell if the photo is specifically of Jasta 7? Could the plane in the photo have been taken while a visiting plane from another squadron was on the flight line? How could one be certain?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    I will double check my source. But he seemed pretty confident that all of the scouts in that photograph were from Jasta 7.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post

    Just a thought. Because someone said that a photo belonged in a certain person's collection, doesn't mean it is from a specific Jasta. Is there any way to tell if the photo is specifically of Jasta 7? Could the plane in the photo have been taken while a visiting plane from another squadron was on the flight line? How could one be certain?
    Buchner is also the only chequerboard-band Fokker D.VII I can find, but there was also a Jasta 37 Albatros D.Va with a black-and-white chequerboard band; it was on Dom Skelton's Jasta 37 decal sheet.

    There is no way to be absolutely "certain" of a photograph's provenance; even when the photographer writes on the back, they sometimes make mistakes!

    What does seem certain about the D.VII photo is the presence of an all-black Fokker Dr.1, almost certainly one of Josef Jacobs' mounts, second left.
    Even with the vagaries of black/white photography, the plane is REALLY dark with a pure white rudder!
    Also of note is the D.VII "L", 4th from the right. This matches an "L" D.VII on the famous "aerodrome" photo of Jasta 7 published in Windsock Fokker D.VII Anthology Volume 1.
    I'll try to dig out the photo.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    Well, here's a fine how-do-you-do!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note: black-winged D.VII (bottom), then a SMALL gap; next an all-black Dr.1; then a BIG gap, then a comparatively pale D.VII, with lozenge wings, not black: then a BIG gap, then the "Chequerboard" D.VII, black wings and with a 'T' on the port wing; next to a black-winged D.VII "L", followed by 4 more dark D.VIIs with no gaps between them! (top)

    Could these two photographs have been taken on the same day?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note: black-winged D.VII (left), then a SMALL gap; next an all-black Dr.1; then a BIG gap, then a comparatively pale D.VII, with lozenge wings, not black: then a BIG gap, then the "Chequerboard" D.VII, black wings; next to a black-winged D.VII "L", followed by 4 more dark D.VIIs with no gaps between them!

    Looks like a pretty good match to me!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Well, here's a fine how-do-you-do!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note: black-winged D.VII (bottom), then a SMALL gap; next an all-black Dr.1; then a BIG gap, then a comparatively pale D.VII, with lozenge wings, not black: then a BIG gap, then the "Chequerboard" D.VII, black wings and with a 'T' on the port wing; next to a black-winged D.VII "L", followed by 4 more dark D.VIIs with no gaps between them! (top)

    Could these two photographs have been taken on the same day?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jasta 7 Aerodrome 2.jpg 
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    Note: black-winged D.VII (left), then a SMALL gap; next an all-black Dr.1; then a BIG gap, then a comparatively pale D.VII, with lozenge wings, not black: then a BIG gap, then the "Chequerboard" D.VII, black wings; next to a black-winged D.VII "L", followed by 4 more dark D.VIIs with no gaps between them!

    Looks like a pretty good match to me!
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  13. #13

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    The comment on page 45 of the FOKKER DVII ANTHOLOGY part 1 (1997 Albatros Productions) doesn’t give much more information for identification of this checkered plane.

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  14. #14

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    Looks like a decent photo match Tim.
    So, if the premise that the pilots used the initial of their surname on the top plane is correct, (ie H - Hüttenrauch, B - Böhne / Barth) we just have to find the pilot in Jasta 7 with the initial T when this was taken !

    "He is wise who watches"

  15. #15

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    I think so.

    I couldn't find the name when I painted my 'T' D.VII.

    My first (and often only!) port of call is "The Jasta Pilots" - this book lists every known (at time of publishing) pilot, in every Jasta, who achieved at least one aerial victory.
    There is no one with the initial letter of their surname 'T' listed for Jasta 7, throughout the entire War.

    This means that either
    i) the pilot was completely unknown to the authors at the time of publishing, or
    ii) they do know the identity, but the pilot never gained any confirmed "kills", so never got a mention in the book.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  16. #16

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    Tim, "The Jasta Pilots". Is it just a roll call or does it have any details or history about the pilots. Sounds interesting, but it the price is marked up quite heavily on the used book market.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    Tim, "The Jasta Pilots". Is it just a roll call or does it have any details or history about the pilots. Sounds interesting, but it the price is marked up quite heavily on the used book market.
    It has histories of the great majority of German pilots, but just footnotes for the "great Aces", who are all to be found in another book in the series.

    "The Jasta Pilots" lists them all individually and alphabetically, with dates in units, details of each victory claim, and wounds/demise.

    Another section lists the Jastas in order, each with a brief history, a list of Commanders, a list of aerodromes, a victory total (where available) and a footnote about losses.

    A separate section repeats this whole info hoard, for Marine Units.

    A section at the back of the book lists the common markings in each Jasta, sometimes with a line drawing profile.

    "Above the Lines" deals with German Aces (5 kills or more) in greater detail.
    "Over the Front" deals with the United States and France
    "Above the Trenches" covers Great Britain and her Empire's scout pilots
    "Above the War Fronts" covers British and Empire 2-seater crews, and also the Russian pilots.


    They are often a bit pricey, but I left them in my Wish List and got notifications when cheaper volumes became available, so I snapped up those.

    If you intend to research a Jasta, "The Jasta Pilots" is essential; it allows historically correct wingmen to be added to the Aces' minis, to create historically accurate Kette formations, and can also be used to delineate specific time-frames, so that pilots don't fly side-by-side after one of them has flown West.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    ..There is no one with the initial letter of their surname 'T' listed for Jasta 7, throughout the entire War.

    This means that either
    i) the pilot was completely unknown to the authors at the time of publishing, or
    ii) they do know the identity, but the pilot never gained any confirmed "kills", so never got a mention in the book.
    There was a Vfw Adolf Techow in Jasta 7 during 1917 but he fell 22.10 that year so it's not him - likely one or both of the above apply.
    http://www.buddecke.de/jasta7techow.htm

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

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    The only one that I have found in my copy of Cross and Cockade volume 25 No. 3 that it could be Gefr Tetzler who joined the Jasta in 1917. But it doesn't mention what happened to him in the list of pilots that served in Jasta 7.

  20. #20

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    I'm still at work so don't have any of my resources to hand............

    I'll try to check up on those two if I ever get out of here!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Rolf View Post
    The only one that I have found in my copy of Cross and Cockade volume 25 No. 3 that it could be Gefr Tetzler who joined the Jasta in 1917. But it doesn't mention what happened to him in the list of pilots that served in Jasta 7.
    Gefr Tetzler is mentioned in 'The Jasta Pilots' alphabetical listing. Noted as with J7 with no other information.

  22. #22

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    That's some great team research, fellas!

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    There was a Vfw Adolf Techow in Jasta 7 during 1917 but he fell 22.10 that year so it's not him - likely one or both of the above apply.
    http://www.buddecke.de/jasta7techow.htm
    Right, home now - book in hand.

    Yes, Techow is in the alphabetical listing: joined Jasta 7 on 21st July 1917, after what appears to be a single day in Jasta 18! (probable misprint).
    No kills.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Gefr Tetzler is mentioned in 'The Jasta Pilots' alphabetical listing. Noted as with J7 with no other information.
    Yep.

    Once again, no kills.

    This means neither pilot appears in the Jasta 7 potted history/chronology in the first section of the book, which includes all pilots who flew in the unit and achieved at least one kill.

    The upshot here is that "The Jasta Pilots" might include quite a few Jasta 7 members who scored no victories; the only way to spot them (without a pointer from another information source) would be to read and check every single entry in the book!
    That's a bit too much for me!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  25. #25

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    Tim I have also painted up Vzfw Reuss 1 kill, Uffz Peisker 1 kill and Flwb Alfred Muller 0 kills. I will now have to paint up Tetzler's scout and the D.VII with L on the wings and fuselage. Plus the unknown Fokker Dr.I and maybe Degalow's Pfalz D.IIIa or Uffz Max Merten's Pfalz.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by monse View Post
    The comment on page 45 of the FOKKER DVII ANTHOLOGY part 1 (1997 Albatros Productions) doesn’t give much more information for identification of this checkered plane.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have been hunting for this book last night with no joy. If anyone out there knows where I can buy a copy can you please let me know thank you.

  27. #27

  28. #28

  29. #29

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    There is a photograph of Jasta 7 pilots on the other Aerodrome website but I am unable to access it because I am not a member. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=71106

  30. #30

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    Hi David. I have access to the other Aerodrome and can view the photos.

    The photo shows several J7 pilots and a downed RAF Canadian pilot, Stuart MacKay Connolly, shot down by Kurt Schönfelder. A second photo has Schönfelder and Connolly in front of a J7 DVII.

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    Last edited by Teaticket; 12-16-2020 at 20:16.

  31. #31

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    I am very greatful for all of the above help and advice from my peers on this subject. I was inspired to start collecting this Jasta by Tim's collection of J7 scouts and by Jacobs rather dapper looking Dr.I. I now have quite a few of the J7 pilots in my collection. When I was sent this archive photograph I wanted to double check with you chaps as there are quite a few of you who have an extensive knowledge on this subject of WW1 aviation. And as my old History teacher taught me was to check multiple sources to reach a final conclusion. I have reproduced Schonfelder's D.VII and I must say it is one of my best repaints to date. I am so proud of this model as it was the only time that I have ever attempted to apply lozenge decals to the wings. However this model met its Waterloo at WMMS at the hands of Chris H. Who liked it, shot at it and then killed it. And my reward was several bullet hole stickers stuck to my Forum T-Shirt. Since then he has made up for being carved up like a Turkey and has wrought havoc upon any Entente pilots who cross his sights.

  32. #32

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    Thank you for showing those photographs from the other Aerodrome website, Peter.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Thank you for showing those photographs from the other Aerodrome website, Peter.
    You're welcome. I wish I could identify the others in the first photo besides Connolly and Schönfelder.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    You're welcome. I wish I could identify the others in the first photo besides Connolly and Schönfelder.
    Peter Kilduff gives the names from left: Lt. Carl Degelow, Lt. Willi Nebgen, Uffz. Jupp Böhne, unidentified pilot, Oberflugmeister Kurt Schönfelder, unidentified pilot in his book about Carl Degelow "Black Focker Leader" on page 68. Degelow was visiting Jasta 7 apparently. (see Greg van's posts)
    One of the unidentified might be Uffz Mertens who also claimed a kill that day - but that's a guess on my part.
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=71106


    "He is wise who watches"

  35. #35

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    The pilot in the chair looks like he just got in from a rough patrol!

  36. #36

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    It was harder than a rough patrol, as this Canadian pilot was nearly shot down this day and taken prisoner :

    Jasta 7’s actions on 18 June 1918:
    “At 0430 hrs eight pilots of 54 Sqn RAF were summoned from their beds and by 0800 hrs they had left, led by Lt. M.G. Burger to bomb an objective 15 miles across the lines. One pilot, 2/Lt S.M. Connolly, in Camel D6487, could not keep up and blinded by the morning sun he did not see two EA that approached and then swung in behind him. He was brought down in a shell hole and watched as the two EA that shot him down circled above his head. He was later driven to Jasta 7’s aerodrome and introduced to the pilot who claimed him. Oberflm Schoenfelder spoke no English but took the slightly injured 2/Lt. Connolly around the aerodrome showing him all the machines.”

    Source : The Aerodrome
    Canadian historian Stewart K. Taylor provided extensive footnotes to Stephen Lawson’s transcription of Josef Jacobs’ diary in Cross & Cockade International, Volume 25 No. 3, 1994. Stew did meticulous research into British records, and provided his own insights into the actions described in Jacobs’ diary, from the British point of view

  37. #37

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    Thanks for that info Dave. I don't have that book and had never seen this photo before.

  38. #38

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    D'OH!

    I'll have to re-repaint my 'T' repaint Fokker D.VII now!

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    Also, it seems the information that I have, declaring that wing letters were not displayed by pilots who had a personal marking/emblem, is probably incorrect.
    With that in mind, perhaps I need to apply a 'N' to the top wing of my Willi Nebgen D.VII.............

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    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  39. #39

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    Gefreiter Tetzler 'T' Fokker now repainted with fuselage chequerboard, just in time for 'Hammerhead'.

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    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  40. #40

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    Where did you get the chequerboard decals from Tim?

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Rolf View Post
    Where did you get the chequerboard decals from Tim?
    "mehusla 1/144 direct"
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  42. #42



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