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Thread: Nieuport 11 equipped with both a machine gun and rockets.

  1. #1

    Default Nieuport 11 equipped with both a machine gun and rockets.

    A Nieuport 11 equipped with both a machine gun and rockets has restrictions placed on the use of sideslip cards. After the rockets have been fired should those restrictions still apply because the launch rails are still attached to the plane or should they be removed? What do people think?
    Last edited by Naharaht; 11-03-2019 at 09:55.

  2. #2

    Default

    I think that the rails are more relevant than the rockets, that have a quite limited weight. Overall, the rockets system is more cumbersome than heavy.
    Just my opinion. Interested to hear more.

  3. #3

    Default

    I would think that because the rockets were just stuck into tubes or brackets, the pilots would have to be careful not to dump them out or damage the ignition wires.

    There are some sections in French, but scroll down to the other English sections, and check out the pictures and descriptions:
    The Pioneers - Yves Paul Gaston Le Prieur (1885 - 1963)

    After firing, free to fly at max.

    PS: Image of a Sopwith Pup installation, using brackets, not tubes:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Nieuport 11, perhaps with brackets, not tubes:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    PPS: More pictures here (looks more probable that tubes were used on Nieuports): Diesel Punks - Knights of the Air: Le Prieur Rockets

    PPPS: Found this image of a Sopwith Pup with rockets. Definitely tubes:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Shuttleworth Collection? Shuttleworth.org Sopwith Pup
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-31-2019 at 01:02.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  4. #4

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    From an aerodynamics point of view, the drag cost of rails/tubes is going to be significant; mounting lugs, once the rockets themselves are gone, less so.
    That being said...
    total drag on any given aircraft is: (Coefficient of Drag) x (((altitude density) x (velocity^2))/2) x reference area.

    Coefficient of drag is dependent on aircraft design and configuration, as is reference area. Altitude density and velocity can be safely ignored for the purposes of this discussion.
    Looking at this equation, it is easy to see the accuracy of my opening statement. Both the drag coefficient and the reference area are going to drop significantly without rockets. However, the performance of a given aircraft is essentially affected by the thrust/drag ratio. Thrust, being provided by the engine power, can also actually vary for an engine of any given horsepower, depending on density altitude (both because the PPO, necessary for production of power in any combustion engine) and the density altitude tend to decrease at higher altitudes. When the thrust/drag ration approaches one, the aircraft slows significantly: at fractional values,t eh aircraft stalls. Thus, it is possible, that even with the rockets gone, even using comparatively lower drag lugs (as opposed to retained tubes), the aircraft, with the extra drag of lugs is somewhat close to stall; just not as close as it is with the lugs, the rails and the rockets.

    But remember, this is a game. And it is much more of a "Gamers' game" than a "Crunchy" game, as I have used those terms before.

    In the final analysis, it is YOUR game: if you feel the extra drag produced by even empty rocket systems is enough, then go with whatever lower performance system you feel is appropriate. If you feel the empty rocket system isn't going to really affect performance, then use that. It is even justifiable that you might use the two alternatives with different aircraft: for example, the Nieuport 11 & Sopwith Pup both typically were equipped with 60kW engines; the Nieuport 17 usually with an 82kW engine, and of course, the larger size fighters had more form drag.

    But I would advise you to be consistent, especially when introducing new players to the game, and explain your reasoning with any given variation when deviating from as-printed rules, since players are going to have more ready access to the latter.

  5. #5

    Default

    The restrictions placed on the Nieuport 11 should be lifted once all the rockets have gone, they'll need to dodge about on the way out ! Maybe there should be alternate stats for the Nieuport 11 in a stripped/loaded configuration same as there appears to be for the Nieuport 16:
    The Unofficial stats given for the Nieuport 16 are max alt 12; climb rate 2 but the Balloon Busters set give the rocket armed version as max alt 10; climb rate 5. Then if you fire off the rockets you could give the machine back some performance and due to the fittings you could select a 'mid point' in the performance differences. Say max alt 11; climb rate 3 to differentiate it from a 'stripped' fighting scout.
    Up to the individual though, as long as everyone knows before the game starts.

    "He is wise who watches"



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