Do Vipers have any advantage over Raiders?

[Naharaht]

Viper Mk.II's have one less structure point, one less acceleration and no FTL drive. Their manoeuvre decks appear to be identical. Does a Viper have any advantage over a Cylon Raider or must we rely on skill cards to 'level the playing field'?

[Marechallannes]

I don't know, but it makes sense that the the "old" MK.II model has not such a good performance like the future upcoming MK.VII.

MK.II and Raiders use the same damage deck & it isn't similar to an WGS A-deck, more to an WGS B-deck, so one hull point difference doesn't make a big difference in my opinion.

[Baxter]

I thought all the Viper Mk.VII's were destroyed at the beginning of the mini-series. Only the Mk.II's were immune to the Cylon systems hack due to their older systems. So I am surprised if there is going to be Mk VII's in the game. Vipers turn tighter than Cylons too so their cards are not exactly the same.u

[Naharaht]

After some sleep and breakfast, I checked the two manoeuvre decks in more detail and found that they are not identical and the differences make the Vipers slightly more manoeuvrable. I will submit a more detailed report later when I have some spare time.

[Angiolillo]

Do not forget that the Mk.II has a 0 G cost for the change direction card, making it so agile in turning around itself as seen on TV. Mk.VII are lately used a lot in the series, even if with manual commands instead than the automatic systems that they used before the Cylon attacks. So not as agile and effective as they were originally designed.

[Marechallannes]

I thought all the Viper Mk.VII's were destroyed at the beginning of the mini-series.

Don't forget the MK.VIIs from the BS PEGASUS.

[ca1701]

I thought all the Viper Mk.VII's were destroyed at the beginning of the mini-series. Only the Mk.II's were immune to the Cylon systerms hack due to their older systems. So I am surprised if there is going to be Mk VII's in the game. Vipers turn tighter than Cylons too so their cards are not exactly the same.

All of Galactica's Mk VIIs were destroyed in the miniseries. The only Mk VII left would have been the one Apollo landed on Galactica with. According to older versions of the script, there were a few stranded Mark VII Vipers from other battlestars that found Roslin's refugee fleet. Boomer mentioned that they were able to be rendered useless by the Cylons so Apollo made the call to NOT use them to protect the fleet. These were downgraded during the next few episodes to allow for inclusion with the rest of Galactica's Viper complement. It would be safe to assume about 6 to 9 Mark VIIs were on-board Galactica at the end of the mini-series.

Once Galactica met up with Pegasus though, new Mk VII Vipers could be manufactured and stationed on-board Galactica. Additionally, after the exodus from New Caprica all of the remaining Pegasus Mk VII Vipers are now on-board Galactica.

[Naharaht]

A Comparison of the Colonial Viper Mk.II and Cylon Raider Manoeuvre Decks.

Card Number /21 Description Notes
1 Straights, Forward or Reverse Same
2 Gentle turn to Port, Forward or Reverse Same
3 Gentle turn to Starboard, Forward or Reverse Same
4 Narrow Sideslip to Port Same
5 Narrow Sideslip to Starboard Same
6 60 degree turn to Port Only the Viper has 60 degree Reverse.
7 60 degree turn to Starboard Only the Viper has 60 degree Reverse.
8 Wider Sideslip to Port Cylon version is classed as a Difficult Manoeuvre.
9 Wider Sideslip to Starboard Cylon version is classed as a Difficult Manoeuvre.
10 90 degree turn to Port Same – both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
11 90 degree turn to Starboard Same – both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
12 120 degree turn to Port Only the Viper can perform this at Slow Speed. Both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
13 120 degree turn to Starboard Only the Viper can perform this at Slow Speed. Both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
14 Straight Overboost Same
15 Sideslip to Port Overboost The Cylon moves slight further to Port.
16 Sideslip to Starboard Overboost The Cylon moves slight further to Starboard.
17 60 degree Overboost Turn to Port The Cylon’s Turn is marginally tighter.
18 60 degree Overboost Turn to Starboard The Cylon’s Turn is marginally tighter.
19 120 degree Overboost Turn to Port The Cylon’s Turn is slightly tighter.
20 120 degree Overboost Turn to Starboard The Cylon’s Turn is slightly tighter.
21 Change Direction The Cylon card is a G-Force 2 Manoeuvre. The Viper’s card is G-Force 0.

I tried to put these into columns
If people would like a document set out in columns putting into the Files section, please let me know.

[OldGuy59]

A Comparison of the Colonial Viper Mk.II and Cylon Raider Manoeuvre Decks.

Card Number /21 Description Notes
1 Straights, Forward or Reverse Same
2 Gentle turn to Port, Forward or Reverse Same
3 Gentle turn to Starboard, Forward or Reverse Same
4 Narrow Sideslip to Port Same
5 Narrow Sideslip to Starboard Same
6 60 degree turn to Port Only the Viper has 60 degree Reverse.
7 60 degree turn to Starboard Only the Viper has 60 degree Reverse.
8 Wider Sideslip to Port Cylon version is classed as a Difficult Manoeuvre.
9 Wider Sideslip to Starboard Cylon version is classed as a Difficult Manoeuvre.
10 90 degree turn to Port Same – both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
11 90 degree turn to Starboard Same – both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
12 120 degree turn to Port Only the Viper can perform this at Slow Speed. Both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
13 120 degree turn to Starboard Only the Viper can perform this at Slow Speed. Both versions are Difficult Manoeuvres.
14 Straight Overboost Same
15 Sideslip to Port Overboost The Cylon moves slight further to Port.
16 Sideslip to Starboard Overboost The Cylon moves slight further to Starboard.
17 60 degree Overboost Turn to Port The Cylon’s Turn is marginally tighter.
18 60 degree Overboost Turn to Starboard The Cylon’s Turn is marginally tighter.
19 120 degree Overboost Turn to Port The Cylon’s Turn is slightly tighter.
20 120 degree Overboost Turn to Starboard The Cylon’s Turn is slightly tighter.
21 Change Direction The Cylon card is a G-Force 2 Manoeuvre. The Viper’s card is G-Force 0.

I tried to put these into columns
If people would like a document set out in columns putting into the Files section, please let me know.

I have noted that one (two, for the opposite turn. Cards 12 and 13 above?) of the Cylon maneuver cards has only the 2 and 3 speed options, compared to the Colonial turn with three speeds. And, in situations where the Cylon is rotated, having to use a 2G Change Direction card, where the Colonials can use a 0G card, makes a substantial difference in options. You need to compare all the stats on a maneuver card, not just the maneuvers.

Andrea and I have traded notes on this, because I thought that robots would be able to handle G forces much better than biological creatures. This is one of the big limitations in current jet capabilities. In WWII, fighters were the limiting factor in dogfighting, with the pilot being able to take more stress and G force than the planes they flew. Today, the limiting factor is the pilot, even with a 'G-Suit', as the pilot can't take the G forces the plane can create during maneuvering. Pilots are trained to recognize the onset of G-induced unconsciousness (Grey-Out), so that they don't pass out during hard maneuvering in the middle of a dogfight.

Andrea's answer (IIRC) is that the Raider's design is not as maneuverable as the Mk.II Viper, hence the difference in the maneuver decks. Flying the Raider is more restrictive in choices, so that the Cylon has to be more careful in what positions he puts himself in. I have been caught 'flat footed' a few times in my games, by not considering the exit of a Rotated maneuver, because I would exceed G limits (Nimble Pilot Talent, please!).

PS: If I'm lucky in the scatter roll, an FTL Jump can save the situation, and put the Viper in a vulnerable position. However, due to that scatter roll, it can kill you, just as easily. BSG Game Demo - Curious Comics Gaming Extravaganza, February 2019 - Post #4 (Game win description under Image 3)

[Angiolillo]

Yes, Vipers Mk.VII are in all the Reimagined series.

A few Viper Mk.VII in 33, first episode of season 1:



Then more arrive with the Pegasus. Here one with 48 victories:

[Baxter]

Thanks for correcting me with the Vipers guys. I must have missed that while watching the series.

[Ken at Sunrise]

Do not forget that the Mk.II has a 0 G cost for the change direction card, making it so agile in turning around itself as seen on TV. Mk.VII are lately used a lot in the series, even if with manual commands instead than the automatic systems that they used before the Cylon attacks. So not as agile and effective as they were originally designed.

Thank you for a good attention to detail. I added the bold.

[Rory]

It would be cool if there were two cards for the Viper Mk VII, one for the version where the software had been rolled back/changed/removed so the cylons could not infect it with their virus, and a version where it was as it was originally designed to be...