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Thread: Low level recon - anyone playing missions for this? Bloody April book

  1. #1

    Default Low level recon - anyone playing missions for this? Bloody April book

    Reading Bloody April I ran into description of pre offensive recon calling for oblique photos taken at angle while just a few hundred feet above the trenches.

    Wonder how this would translate in WOG? Altitude level 2 (1 being on ground) and specifically out one side on the plane?

    Anyone play around with such mission parameters?

    Thanks
    Myles

  2. #2

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    Not played anything like it yet - I'd keep 4 pegs under a model and call it level 2 (just because it's easier to handle), you can fly at level 1 but not below it (p.15 RAP) - allow the photos be taken from either side of a machine - at a range of one to one and a half rulers of its intended target or whatever suits.
    Would make a nice change not to have to fly over a target !
    https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk...rst-world-war/

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    Apparently more detail is obtainable for analysis if oblique photos are taken early morning or late evening when the shadows are longest.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #4

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    hmmm... Just learned more about Stereoscopy than I expected. Which followed into Photogrammetry.

    Stereoscopy actually started as early as the mid-1800s, and Photogrammetry was used to do topographic mapping. Having deep shadows would help with depth perception on stereoscopic images, and produce more detailed maps. I recently read that the RFC was tasked to get photographs of Vimy Ridge, prior to the April 9-12 battle, and expended quite a few crews and planes attempting to get very detailed maps of the ridge defenses. Doing low-level flights over the ridge would put them in easy MG range, while moving slow and steady for photography runs making them too easy to hit.

    "... approximately 7 km (4.3 mi) in length and culminating at an elevation of 145 m (476 ft) or 60 m (200 ft) above the Douai Plains, ..." Source: Wikipedia.org - Battle of Vimy Ridge

    Background Info: Air Power and the Battle for Vimy Ridge
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    It would make an interesting change from th usual "fly over the target" mission, especially in a sceneario wherein the defending side doesn't know that's what's intended. Hm...

  6. #6

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    Low level flying will attract ground fire. Oh how we all love ground fire!

  7. #7

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    It sounds as suicidal as ground strafing.

  8. #8

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    I think it should be more difficult for a machine gun to swing onto a plane flying on the deck. Now you see me now you don't.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I think it should be more difficult for a machine gun to swing onto a plane flying on the deck. Now you see me now you don't.

    Rob.
    Using a B.E.2c on a photo run, attempting to get a grid set, I would suspect the target to be low, slow, and not dodging about a whole bunch. With tracer rounds, you'd just walk the bullets onto the target. And Germans had 2-3 times the machine guns per unit than the Allies. I just wouldn't want to be that plane.

    Remember, Vimy Ridge was the most prominent feature in the area, and the Germans were all over it. The plane couldn't use the terrain to hide in, it could have been lower than the MGs.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

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    Peter loves the ground fire. have taken many hits that way.

  11. #11

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    Definitely a job for a Junkers J.1 (J.4) and its steel bathtub.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_J.I

  12. #12

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    Too late to play, but the Brits did finally field it's equivalent, the Sopwith Buffalo
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_Buffalo
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I think it should be more difficult for a machine gun to swing onto a plane flying on the deck. Now you see me now you don't.

    Rob.
    I would tend to agree... assuming that the ground troops weren't all that prepared and the pilot's primary goal was to get over fast and get out. I've read a number of accounts of British scout pilots forced to do this on their way back home to their aerodrome, most recently in Franks and Saunders' Mannock: The Life and Death of Major Edward Mannock, VC, DSO, MC, RAF. Great book, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Using a B.E.2c on a photo run, attempting to get a grid set, I would suspect the target to be low, slow, and not dodging about a whole bunch. With tracer rounds, you'd just walk the bullets onto the target. And Germans had 2-3 times the machine guns per unit than the Allies. I just wouldn't want to be that plane.

    Remember, Vimy Ridge was the most prominent feature in the area, and the Germans were all over it. The plane couldn't use the terrain to hide in, it could have been lower than the MGs.
    This, I think, would make all the difference in the world. Low level + low speed + no maneuvering = ouch.

    I'm continually amazed at the risks assumed and work done by two-seater crews on a daily basis.

  14. #14

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    The point about the lay of the land would mean a lot of course. I was thinking in general terms of hedge hopping.Even at the speeds of those birds you would be there and gone in a trice. Just think how many had a go at the Red Baron on the day he died before one of them got him and he was not that low. I suppose the flying dead straight would make a difference, but still think MGs in our game are over rated. Basically if they shoot at you they nearly always get a hit.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  15. #15

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    For what it's worth, I agree that the lay of the land is SPOT ON as far as surviving low-level runs are concerned. Such missions, whether recon, bombing, strafing or even spotting were very dangerous. Yes, in many instances, particularly when hedge-dodging, planes COULD surprise their enemy with a quick in-and-out pass before any real fire could come to bear. But quite often, it seems such runs were similar to the X-Wing attack on the Death Star ... they had to run the proverbial gauntlet. Though the "Archies" might not have posed much of a threat at low altitudes and the knee-jerk rifle fire may not have been very effective, the machine guns and flaming onions seem to have been fearfully daunting.

    I've actually developed and have been recently testing out a set of house rules dealing with two versions of those nasty little guns one reads about so often from the survivors of low level missions. They, combined with all the other crap coming up from the ground (not to mention a sudden Hun diving down on one's tail) make for some exciting "633 Squadron" style actions. One can appreciate why most RAF pilots of the time thought such missions to be suicidal.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    The point about the lay of the land would mean a lot of course. I was thinking in general terms of hedge hopping.Even at the speeds of those birds you would be there and gone in a trice. Just think how many had a go at the Red Baron on the day he died before one of them got him and he was not that low. I suppose the flying dead straight would make a difference, but still think MGs in our game are over rated. Basically if they shoot at you they nearly always get a hit.

    Rob.
    Your quite correct, WingCo; remembering too, most of the MGs would not be mounted for AA use, and in general, the crews not alerted for aircraft.
    And deflection isn't considered at all.
    We ran into this while doing AAA for ships in WW2; basically, if you followed the RaW, you were dead.
    So there has to be some built-in abstraction for all these guns.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    ...I suppose the flying dead straight would make a difference, but still think MGs in our game are over rated...
    Absolutely. Couldn't agree more, WingCo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    ...most of the MGs would not be mounted for AA use, and in general, the crews not alerted for aircraft...
    Another important consideration.

    Ground fire is, I think, both too accurate and not random enough. Most accounts I've come across remark on this randomness... even the name "Archie" and it's reference to the refrain of a popular music hall song, "Archibald, certainly not!" seems to imply that it's nothing more than a nuisance for most pilots until it's not. And then it's too late. Of course, I don't think anyone would appreciate a random card draw to determine if today was the day when your number came up.

    Even low-level fire was less-than effective for a variety of reasons, as noted by both Karl and Rob.



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