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Thread: Avenger Maneuver Deck?

  1. #1

    Default Avenger Maneuver Deck?

    Thank you for your help,


    I know the drome has likely covered this before; but what maneuver deck would be assigned to the Grumman TBF Avenger?

    Is a thread out there discussing the topic already?

    I think I want to put together 5 Shapeways Avengers in the Lost Squadron Flight 19 scheme.


    Thank you for your ideas,
    Chris

  2. #2

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    Deck K* (no reversals), 21 hits, climb 5
    ceiling is 5 for the TBF-1 and 1C, 8 for the TBF-3.
    Forward guns is either A/A for early models, or B/A for later ones.
    Ventral gun is A/A rear arc, low only.
    The dorsal turret had some discussion: Note that all tail blind spot rules are in effect:
    Dorsal turret: 3:00 to 9:00, low(long range only) to high
    2:00 to 10:00, level to high
    360 high ; A/A;

    Yes, there is overlap, but this was the best way to describe it.
    Karl
    Last edited by Jager; 10-18-2018 at 09:43. Reason: sp
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Deck K* (no reversals), 21 hits, climb 5
    ceiling is 5 for the TBF-1 and 1C, 8 for the TBF-3.
    Forward guns is either A/A for early models, or B/A for later ones.
    Ventral gun is A/A rear arc, low only.
    The dorsal turret had some discussion: Note that all tail blind spot rules are in effect:
    Dorsal turret: 3:00 to 9:00, low(long range only) to high
    2:00 to 10:00, level to high
    360 high ; A/A;

    Yes, there is overlap, but this was the best way to describe it.
    Karl
    Well... That settles that...
    Thank you Karl

    Chris

  4. #4

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    Not to knock the Shapeways designers but if you don't already have them, AIM has a very nice Avenger.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Not to knock the Shapeways designers but if you don't already have them, AIM has a very nice Avenger.
    Probably cheaper too.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Probably cheaper too.
    Karl
    Definitely.

  7. #7

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    That is good information. I'll check them out.

    Thank you,
    Chris

  8. #8

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    Possible Avenger card?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    [Edit: Single-gunned turret now indicated, and ventral range adjusted.]

    We could put yellow areas on the Dorsal arc to indicate deflection (below altitude), just like the dark area at the back for the blind spot?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-19-2018 at 09:19.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    Mike;
    Would it be too confusing to put an inner yellow curve just inside (maybe touching) the dorsal arc to show the lower shot arc? Also, is there a color code for "long range only"?
    I stipulated this since the turret is limited to -30 degrees on the beam shots, per the manual that Foz posted in the UAC Stats forum:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Grumman TBM-3 Avenger Pilot's Handbook of Flight Operating Instructions.jpg 
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ID:	256643

    Also: is it my eyes, or does this turret have twin guns? It should be a single gun, offset to the right.
    Sorry, a little nitpicking first thing in the morning. A very nice card, as usual, Mike.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  10. #10

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    I love details...

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Mike;
    Would it be too confusing to put an inner yellow curve just inside (maybe touching) the dorsal arc to show the lower shot arc? Also, is there a color code for "long range only"?
    I stipulated this since the turret is limited to -30 degrees on the beam shots, per the manual that Foz posted in the UAC Stats forum:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Grumman TBM-3 Avenger Pilot's Handbook of Flight Operating Instructions.jpg 
Views:	111 
Size:	149.1 KB 
ID:	256643

    Also: is it my eyes, or does this turret have twin guns? It should be a single gun, offset to the right.
    Sorry, a little nitpicking first thing in the morning. A very nice card, as usual, Mike.

    Karl
    Karl,
    Drawing above fixed. Interesting that there are drawings of this plane with a twin-gunned turret, but I can't find any version of TBM or TBF that had a twin-gunned turret in the version record.

    I'm not an altitude guy. The lower altitude thing on the dorsal turret is a problem, as I understand the rules. If the standard rules for altitude are that planes above fire at planes below using short range as a long range hit, then the dorsal turret firing at targets below at long range only is not allowed. Therefore, no firing arcs are required. Just my two cents. This is a game mechanic thing, not real life.

    So, there wouldn't be any need for special color coding. Also, I am not aware of any "long range only" weapons in Wings of Glory. There are "range not a factor" weapons (AA cannons, explosive round cannons?), but that isn't the same thing.

    Thoughts?

    PS: I've adjusted the Avenger ventral firing arc damage to reflect the published He.111 ventral arcs, showing only short range.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-19-2018 at 09:22.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    Looking at the diagram firing arc 2 is 360 degrees its just the bit missing from the card should only by at high not level or low.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Looking at the diagram firing arc 2 is 360 degrees its just the bit missing from the card should only by at high not level or low.
    Neil,
    I might have it wrong, but the level arc is the #2 red shield and arc, the higher arc is the #2 red outlined shield with white center, indicating 360 degrees. It is shown this way on a few official planes.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hmm... Might need to modify my card a bit.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Karl,
    I'm not an altitude guy. The lower altitude thing on the dorsal turret is a problem, as I understand the rules. If the standard rules for altitude are that planes above fire at planes below using short range as a long range hit, then the dorsal turret firing at targets below at long range only is not allowed. Therefore, no firing arcs are required. Just my two cents. This is a game mechanic thing, not real life.
    Duh! Obviously my brain wasn't thinking on this one.
    OK, no lower shooting with the Dorsal gun.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  15. #15

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    If I`m interpreting the commitee`s notes correctly then the fire arcs look like this.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	TBF-1 Avenger.jpg 
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ID:	257082

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit 3 View Post
    If I`m interpreting the commitee`s notes correctly then the fire arcs look like this.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	TBF-1 Avenger.jpg 
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ID:	257082
    Robert,
    That would be what I see in the WGS Unoffical Aircraft Gunnery Arcs V1.0 document, as well.

    I'm proposing updating the arc with a new arc as per Ares published cards. Karl's [Jager] image in Post #9 suggests that even my proposal is too limited, but would fit with the current game mechanics.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

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    Is there an Avenger card available to download?

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dowters View Post
    Is there an Avenger card available to download?
    The one in post #15 looks good.



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