Are "bad" planes fun to fly?

[Artaxerxes]

My rather modest collection consists mostly of late (1916+) single-seaters with A guns and at least reasonable performance, plus a couple double-seaters mostly intended for scenarios (bombing runs etc.).

I've been thinking of getting a couple earlier planes, like a Morane-Saulnier and an Eindekker, essentially for variety, or perhaps to see if an experienced player can beat a newbie in a better plane, but I'm a bit concerned that a duel between a pair of them may be rather dull due to the limited manoeuvrability. (I assume the weak guns are more or less counterbalanced by the flimsiness of the machines.) Do people used to them find that to be the case?

[flash]

The earlier planes are quite frail & slow moving but can still be fun nonetheless. You might need to adjust your scenarios so that they are closer at the start; they can be a challenge to use & frustrating when you get in a position and only deliver 0's from the B deck but that's the nature of things sometimes. The bigger challenge may be acquiring said mini's as they can be quite hard to come by. Have a look through the AAR sub-forum and see how they perform in the games reported to get some ideas how they might be used.
https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/fo...Action-Reports

[hawkhurst]

had a Morane first day of Doncaster was fun to play you need to think differently when playing to allow for the speed but still fun

[Flying Helmut]

Yes, they are fun - a different kind of fun.

Two such planes engaged in a 1-to-1 could be a little dull, though, but they are very evenly matched much more so than later planes.

Although I fly for Germany the great majority of the time, I do LOVE my Vickers Gunbus!
A Shapeways 3D print model, it crawls around the sky, climbing like a crippled snail towing a 1-ton block up a 45 degree incline, but it looks great, and the fact that it's rubbish makes it fun!

[Пилот]

Well, flying oldies can be a bit frustrating when you are used to more maneuverable newies, but it's fun nevertheless.

[Marechallannes]

For what reason ever - I like the Eindeckers and try to avoid the Morane bullets .

Try to get a Nieuport 11 or DH2 instead as an Entente opponent.

[gully_raker]

I must admit I do love my early war planes & find them great in suitable scenarios.
Like Tim I "love" my Gunbus & BE 2's. Have a great spot in my heart for E.III's & DH-2's as well.

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[Baxter]

Very nice Barry. What BE2 card are you using for the field of fire?

[Artaxerxes]

Thanks for the replies Sounds like the consensus is they're fun enough.

[OldGuy59]

For me, it depends on what you mean by bad. A SPAD XIII is 'bad', if you like getting in close and spinning around. Also, the Albatros D.Va is 'bad' for similar reasons, but it is slower. A Fokker Dr.1 can't refuse a fight with a Camel or a SPAD XIII, because it is too slow. However, it will out-turn a SPAD XIII in any fight, if the SPAD XIII tries to mix it up in a close fight.

The two Duel Packs are good demonstrations of mid-war fighters with similar capabilities. The SPAD XIII vs the Albatros D.Va is a jousting fight, zooming in and through, shooting at your opponent as you pass by. The Camel and Dr.1 is a spinning, turning fight at close range.

If you want a tight, close fight, few early war planes will be to your liking, and they are slow, plodding affairs, compared to a Fokker D.VII vs an SE.5a/Snipe battle in the late war.

But, any plane is a challenge, and 'historical' battles are a good way to see the changes in capability/technology as the war progressed. Fly 'bad' planes to know what the pilots of WWI experienced, and then you understand why the Camel/Dr.1 were cherished. The recon scenario, flying a slow vulnerable two-seater fighting against opposing scouts is also not the chivalrous battles of knight in the air, but sometimes suicide missions. If you really look at WWI Aerial Warfare, most of the mission, and the ones that were most effective, were the artillery spotting/photographic/recon missions. The way those were achieved was with good cover by scouts, ironically the more popular and revired side of WWI Aerial Warfare.

The Wings of Glory Campaign Set, when it arrives, will give you a framework through which to experience all the planes of WWI, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I hope it is out next year, along with a lot of reprints for new (and old) players.

[Artaxerxes]

For me, it depends on what you mean by bad.

Early planes, basically, like the Morane-Saulnier and Fokker Eindekker I mentioned in the OP. The duel pack planes would all be "good" planes for purposes of this thread.

[Windy Jack]

We enjoy playing with the early war planes. See one of our games in the AAR section. It's called 'Past the Fokker Scourge'. We used Moraine-Salnier, and Fokker E.III, followed by Airco DH2 and Hablestadt D.III.
Maybe we are showing our age, but slow is good sometimes!!!

[Dan-Sam]

We are playing with them too. Do not forget that you can use them in combination with old twoseaters (R.E.8 etc.). There are even old Nieuports in this category, but they are still playable very well Do not throw your minis to the trash

[Boney10]

I have to concur with members already saying how much fun early war planes are.
Slower yes but good matches for the Bullet and DH2 against Halberstadts and Eindeckers.
You can fly these against later types, they will be disadvantaged in some respects but will have various loopholes to exploit against new faster planes. Also take a look at Shapeways to get some of the more exotic early war planes, ie Be2, Roland fighter, Ago german pushers these are fun to fly even though they are not the best of planes in reality.

[Zoe Brain]

It's a real challenge, and a lot of fun, to fly a DH2 when everyone else is in Camels and SE5s, vs Fokker D.VIIs and Dr.Is.

[flash]

Of course you can also nick one from the other team !

Here's Leffer's Nieuport 11.

[zenlizard]

I have to add my voice in support of "bad" (mostly, early-war) aircraft-I wouldn't take one up against a super-fighter (i. e., tail end of the war, like a Snipe). But say, an Eindekker could be an interesting challenge for an experienced player against a newbie in a SPAD S. VII.

[gully_raker]

Very nice Barry. What BE2 card are you using for the field of fire?

The one with the Lewis mounted on the Left Wing uses the Bristol Fighter base from Keith with an arc to the Left outside the Prop width whilst the other just has the normal rear arc for the Observer in the front cockpit.

[milcoll73]

yes, it can be a different kind of dogfight.

[P-51D]

In short.....Yes. But it depends on what game type. Personally, my favorite game type is a free for all, we here locally call, Friday Night Flights. Every plane, except for the Giants have a slip of paper with plane type and pilot name. All these slips of paper go into a “hat”. Each player, (I recommend a minimum of 4 players, but the game gets really fun with 6 or more) then randomly selects a slip of paper and then flies that plane in battle in a free-for-all, where alliances are frowned upon but do occasionally happen to take down the higher end aircraft. Once a pilot is shot down, they then select a new slip of paper and enter the battle using the new pane and pilot they selected. If a pilot is skilled and gets 5 kills, they become and ace and can select an ace skill and get additional ace skills for every subsequent 5 kills they get. However, that rarely happens as once one pilot starts to rattle off kills or stalks the perimeter if you will, the other pilots tend to gang up on that individual.

Anyway, the game goes for hours with each pilot usually flying 6-10 different planes during that time frame. Part of the fun and challenge is to make a “bad” plane work well and then rub it in everyone’s face when you are successful. Also, playing this version of the game gives all my models a chance to be on the board from time to time. I really like it. With each series, new planes and pilots enter the fray and it keeps the game fresh and fun. Plus players get to try out planes they may never have thought to use before. Once a plane is shot down, it is retired for the evening. Since, I have every model of both WoW and WGF we have plenty of planes and there are still quite a few who don’t see the table each session.

[Karo7]

I like the early planes. Especially the "bullet" and the pusher propelled ones. I would love to see the Voisin bomber in WoG. It reminds me on the "The Great War"/"History Line 1914-1918" video game by bluebyte, which introduced me to WWI warfare.

Last month I introduced WoG with the basic rues to two members of our monthly Wargaming table*. First we had a one on one game with a E.III vs. a DH2. The game lasted very long, with uncountable narrow fly-by's (meanwhile we were thinking about a pistol or insulting house rule) and too many 0-Damage Cards.

The second game was a one on one with a Dr.I vs. a Camel. The game lasted only 15 Minutes (although no explosion card was drawn) including first time explanation of the rules.

*The Wargaming table is a offshoot of a monthly modeling table. It was funny to observe the members, who are primary interested in model plane kits, and never saw a aircombat wargame before, how they observed our game.

[matt56]

I don't think I've ever had a bad game, regardless of what I've been flying The 'bad' planes/early war aircraft are fun to fly in their own right - it just takes a bit of a different 'hand' in making them successful. There is a world of difference between a Fokker Eindecker and a Siemens-Schuckert DIII or a DH-2 and a Sopwith Camel...

The fun is figuring out what you need to do to be successful at and point in the conflict.

All the best,
Matt

[rhodie80]

I think almost anyone can look spectacular with a D.VII but if you can do the same with an early war "bad" plane you are really accomplished at the game.

[surfimp]

The Nieuport 11 is one of my favorite planes to fly, and I love taking on the challenge of flying it versus the late war planes. You’ve got very little if any margin for error and really have to out-think your opponent. I do like the Overwing Gun card in the new N.11 that permits firing against an overlapped plane, this helps even the playing field a little bit. It’s definitely a fun challenge!

['Warspite']

There is no such thing as a 'bad' aeroplane but there were/are those that are more challenging to fly or less easy to get victories with. But just remember that in real life very few pilots got to fly with the best or most capable machines; they flew what they were given or were ordered to fly.

So... in any campaign or club set-up there should be a mechanism by which players have two active 'names' or characters. One is a fighter pilot, the other a two-seater pilot. On alternating weeks the players should fly as hunter or prey. Yes, I know we all want to be the hunter but we also have to have prey. The eagles REALLY need the turkeys! You can even have a system whereby anyone shot down in a fighter and losing his/her character killed now has to fly two or three missions on two-seaters until he/she gets promoted back to fighters.

At Harold Wood in the 1970s/80s the system was to fly the actual machines available at various months during the First World War. This was done on a real-time basis with maybe two games a month. Oh how the Allied pilots were waiting for the real months to pass by before they could upgrade their SE5s to SE5as. Likewise the German pilots were really miffed when their Dr1 Triplanes were taken out of service for a few months, for strengthening, after the wings fell off. They really did not like the Albatros and Pfalz they were 'forced' back into.

Short version... don't knock the bad aeroplanes... often they were state-of-the-art (for the time) or were all there was!

And don't give pilots the automatic choice of the best machines.

Barry

[gully_raker]

******************************Snipped********************************************

At Harold Wood in the 1970s/80s the system was to fly the actual machines available at various months during the First World War. This was done on a real-time basis with maybe two games a month. Oh how the Allied pilots were waiting for the real months to pass by before they could upgrade their SE5s to SE5as. Likewise the German pilots were really miffed when their Dr1 Triplanes were taken out of service for a few months, for strengthening, after the wings fell off. They really did not like the Albatros and Pfalz they were 'forced' back into.
************************************snipped***************************************

Barry

That is how we play the Over the Trenches Solo Campaign.
Only fly the aircraft available in the months/years of the Scenario. Keeps it real for good or bad.

['Warspite']

It does keep things real.
Also try explaining to a 13-year-old that he cannot bail out of his burning aeroplane at 12,000 feet because the RFC will not let him have a parachute. "Your choices are... jump, burn or shoot yourself..."

That kept it real as well.

Barry

That is how we play the Over the Trenches Solo Campaign.
Only fly the aircraft available in the months/years of the Scenario. Keeps it real for good or bad.

[Willi]

I agree that all aircraft are fun for different reasons, whether gaming or display. How fast the technology changed and how the pilots were able to simply keep the planes in the air is astounding. I have a few of the early kites (DH2, Eindecker, Caudron, Be2c) all the way to DVIIs and Siemens- Schuckerts, and Snipes. Here are a few pics that some of you have may have seen before, plus one from this morning when my granddaughter wanted to fly her 1:63 metal DR-1 (she wanted her our airplane), then I showed her my "Little Planes" and she was rather fascinated- Start 'Em Early!

[rolld6]

We should see a release of early planes in Q1 and/or Q2 of 2019 according to a recent conversation with Andrea. Balloons are also coming back too, look for that announcement soon, perhaps before the end of the year.

[Popsical]

I would not get your hopes up for releases at a given time. Knowing Ares and their flexible release dates, you simply hope for the best and buy what's available at the time. I've been waiting for the SoG mats for ages and each time the date of release that Ares has put up is reached, it is pushed back another few months.

[Mike White]

My rather modest collection consists mostly of late (1916+) single-seaters with A guns and at least reasonable performance, plus a couple double-seaters mostly intended for scenarios (bombing runs etc.).

I've been thinking of getting a couple earlier planes, like a Morane-Saulnier and an Eindekker, essentially for variety, or perhaps to see if an experienced player can beat a newbie in a better plane, but I'm a bit concerned that a duel between a pair of them may be rather dull due to the limited manoeuvrability. (I assume the weak guns are more or less counterbalanced by the flimsiness of the machines.) Do people used to them find that to be the case?

The underlying question here is perhaps "why do we fly?" Or why do we play WoW/WoG? I've been a wargamer for over 50 years but I've never played anything for the sake of the game, always for the history of the period. Accordingly what is "the best" has never interested me. just re-enacting the air war over the trenches is enough for me. I'm not bothered what plane I use. I suspect I'm a historian first and foremost and a gamer last. (This probably explains why my record is one of glorious defeats!) I'm not sure I'm alone in this approach though.

[Artaxerxes]

The underlying question here is perhaps "why do we fly?" Or why do we play WoW/WoG? I've been a wargamer for over 50 years but I've never played anything for the sake of the game, always for the history of the period. Accordingly what is "the best" has never interested me. just re-enacting the air war over the trenches is enough for me. I'm not bothered what plane I use. I suspect I'm a historian first and foremost and a gamer last. (This probably explains why my record is one of glorious defeats!) I'm not sure I'm alone in this approach though.

What's "the best" isn't the question I'm asking, though: obviously a Sopwith Snipe is better than a Morane-Saulnier. The question was, is a Morane-Saulnier v. an Eindekker as much fun as a Snipe v. a D.VII? The consensus seems to be "yes".

[Mike White]

What's "the best" isn't the question I'm asking, though: obviously a Sopwith Snipe is better than a Morane-Saulnier. The question was, is a Morane-Saulnier v. an Eindekker as much fun as a Snipe v. a D.VII? The consensus seems to be "yes".

Apologies if my response was confusing. All I meant was that I find them all fun! The playability of the cards doesn't affect my enjoyment.

[flash]

I've been waiting for the SoG mats for ages and each time the date of release that Ares has put up is reached, it is pushed back another few months.

I picked up one from Entoyment last week Steven. It may have been the last one but might be worth giving them a bell.

[BellMW54]

My friends and I happen to prefer flying the "bad" planes over the newer types. But then, we use the limited ammo rules found in this forum, as well as my modified altitude rules. They make all the difference in the world! Moraines, Eindekkers, DH2s, Halberstadts and Nieuport 11 scouts as well as the appropriate 2-seaters have afforded us all with the most exciting WoG games we've played. You really get the feeling of flying by the seat of your pants with these...ESPECIALLY if you're Entente up against the German superiority in firepower!