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Thread: Captain X of 60 Squadron

  1. #1

    Exclamation Captain X of 60 Squadron

    I posted the following thread over on the Aerodrome Historical Forum regarding a Captain X of 60 Sqd.
    I am sure you will have no difficulty in identifying who Capt. X was.
    Thought it interesting to hear of another contemporary pilots opinion especially one who wrote the 60 Sqd History & had access to German records soon after WW1.



    Thanks to Alex Revell I obtained access to an extract from the unpublished autobiography of Captain John Edgcombe Doyle DFC 1893-1974.
    Capt Doyle served in 88 & 56 Squadrons & was a Flight Commander in 60 Sqd.
    He was credited with 9 victories & was shot down & became a prisoner of war on 5th September 1918 probably by Ltn Koepsch of Jasta 4.
    After the war Capt Doyle wrote a history of 60 Sqd & had access to German records which most probably were destroyed during WW2.
    His comments about Captain X make for fascinating reading & below I post the extract from Doyle's manuscript for your information & enlightenment.

    Extract from My Life on Wings, the unpublished autobiography of Captain John Edgcombe Doyle DFC. 1893-1974.



    "There was a rule that unless an enemy aircraft was seen to crash by witnesses it could not be claimed as ‘destroyed’. This of course was as it should be, yet a verdict of ‘out of control’ was something and nothing. Just what did it mean? If it was out of control it must eventually crash unless control was regained. If out of control near the ground due to machine gun fire damage it must also certainly crash.

    I have mentioned this action to illustrate some of the difficulties which arose when an airforce was ordered to fight in a way soldiers on the ground said this was the way it must. It must conform to army rule. Meanwhile the policy of the RFC, in as much as it was allowed a policy, resembled that of the Royal Navy. Individuals were not singled out for acclaim and fame.

    France on the other hand was extolling the feats of some of her fighter pilots as supermen, with much publicity, just as Germany had done with some of hers. This build up of individual airmen was held to be of advantage to the war effort. To possess no super-pilots was by contrast disadvantageous to the country concerned. Britain, it seemed, had no outstanding fighter pilots. At any rate the country was not told of any. Why was this, people wanted to know. Questions were asked of the Secretary of State. Finally it was agreed that that names of some successful individuals would be released, although it remained RFC policy in general not to single out individuals and exalt them over their fellows in the public eye. The concession to the clamour for detailed information was not to be regarded as a change in policy. It was exceptional. Nevertheless the door was ajar. It could be pushed wide open. It could not now be closed.

    It so happened that, coinciding with an instruction from England to the RFC in France that certain names be released a new pilot arrived at 60 Squadron He came back one day from a lone patrol over the enemy lines, and completed his combat report according to custom. This stated that he had shot down an enemy aircraft and seen it crash at a certain place. On his way back he had been attacked by several enemy aircraft, and shot down one. As he was out alone his statement was unconfirmed. He made a fairly graphic description of his combat when he wrote out his report.

    Combat reports were of course scrutinised by the Squadron Commander, commented upon if appropriate, and signed. They were then forwarded to Wing for similar treatment, then to Brigade. The Major commented 'Lieutenant X was flying alone and this is unconfirmed’. Wing made a similar comment and passed to Brigade. This was the sort of stuff to satisfy the carping critics in Parliament! Squadron was informed that these victories had been approved.

    Lieut. X was no fool. He realised that since his claim had been allowed there could be other claims – there would be, lots of them! These would also be allowed. For to disallow them was to cast doubt on the veracity of the claimant whose first two claimed victories had already been accepted as truth and dished out to an enthusiastic press in England. There could be no going back. This pilot proceeded to ‘shoot down’ many German aircraft when he was out alone, with his victories unconfirmed, and indeed unseen even by ‘Archie’.

    Perhaps it was a bit of a bother to answer eager questions when he landed from one of his lone patrols. However that may have been, he hit upon the ingenious idea of telling the Squadron that before he landed he would fire a Verey light if had destroyed an enemy aircraft. He would fire two if two were the answer, and so on.

    Whatever the CO or other pilots thought about this scheme there is no doubt that the ‘ground personnel’ – mechanics, office and equipment staff – spread the news rapidly around, such as : X has got three today.

    Needless to say promotion and honours quickly came his way. He could not always fly alone. He had to lead flights and other formations over the lines. If it were commented upon that these forays did not result in victories he would reply that he did not mind risking his own life; he hated to risk the lives of those who followed him. In fact he was not prepared to do so.

    Decorations were showered upon him. He came to be credited with some 80 victories. Finally he was awarded the Victoria Cross for his attack on a German fighter squadron on the ground. He shot down enemy pilots as they took off to intercept him.

    I was not in 60 at the time so how do I know these things, it may be asked. I went to 60 soon after X had left. I arrived full of admiration for his wonderful record. Soon I realised that there was in the Squadron a question as to the truth of X’s claims bordering on total disbelief. This astounded me in view of the strict regulations governing the crediting of combat victories. I thought it was a case of claims being exaggerated. I was wide of the mark.

    After the war I was invited to write the Squadron history, and for this purpose all the records were placed at my disposal. My main interest of course lay in the combat reports, which were as I have stated. Furthermore, from the German archives came the information that there was no raid on any German aerodrome on the stated date. This sort of swindle I find particularly mean and contemptible. It emerges as an insult to those ‘lesser mortals’ who fought and died fighting the war under heavy handicap. I have sometimes wondered if X was always happy in his post-war years, or whether he sometimes suffered from remorse on account of the 80 bogus claims. The average life of a scout pilot from the time he was allowed over the lines was, I am told, fourteen days. The policy of Army Command, insisting that patrols be always over the enemy lines, so that the strength of the RFC was spread wide and never concentrated for a ‘big punch’, was responsible for this appalling casualty rate".
    End of extract

  2. #2

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    Fascinating stuff, Barry!

    Thanks for posting.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  3. #3

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    More ammo, if such was required, to bash the Bishop (oo-er). Nonetheless, putting aside the morality of why/how the claims are made, he was still an ace, just not quite the ace he (or they) wanted us to believe he was, and we should at least thank him for that service.

    "He is wise who watches"

  4. #4

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    Thank you for posting that article, Barry.

  5. #5

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    Read the text and know who it is about.

    Thank you for posting it, Barry.


    Focussing on all that many soldiers is hard. To treat each one individual, and focusing on numbers and medals, too.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  6. #6

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    It certainly makes interesting reading Baz.
    I was aware of some of the factors involved,especially the Aerodrome attack and the German denial, but not that such a damning report existed.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    More ammo, if such was required, to bash the Bishop (oo-er). Nonetheless, putting aside the morality of why/how the claims are made, he was still an ace, just not quite the ace he (or they) wanted us to believe he was, and we should at least thank him for that service.
    He was an ace and he did serve.

    Still an interesting article which was written by another ace of the same service.

    On the lighter side there needs to be an Ace skill "Lone Wolf" this pilot loses all "ace skills" if he is within one ruler length of a friendly aircraft.
    Last edited by john snelling; 09-09-2018 at 21:56.

  8. #8

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    80 is an interesting number. That is what some "informed" sources say that Erick Hartmann actually scored in WWII in lieu of his claimed 352. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-24636.html

    Either way they were brave men to strap themselves into those contraptions and go do for real what we do in play.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    ...On the lighter side there needs to be an Ace skill "Lone Wolf" this pilot loses all "ace skills" if he is within one ruler length of a friendly aircraft.
    Like it John ! One for Mike to consider.
    How about - "Legend In His Own Lunchtime" If he is further than one ruler length of a friendly aircraft anything he has shot at is claimed as a victory

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Like it John ! One for Mike to consider.
    How about - "Legend In His Own Lunchtime" If he is further than one ruler length of a friendly aircraft anything he has shot at is claimed as a victory

    Oh Dave that would be so BB!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Like it John ! One for Mike to consider.
    How about - "Legend In His Own Lunchtime" If he is further than one ruler length of a friendly aircraft anything he has shot at is claimed as a victory


    I'm sure sure you had them in your line of work also.

  12. #12

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    Oh yes, I know who Captain X is... There were even questions asked about him in the Parliament of his home country during the 1980s following a television documentary which suggested this.

    Contrast that with, say, Mick Mannock who was known to give away legitimate kills to trainee pilots to boost their confidence. I am firmly of the opinion that Mannock may have been the top scoring UK and Empire ace or if not the top-scorer, certainly the best.

    Barry (BTW good to see another Barry on here!)



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