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Thread: Speeds of aircraft in game.

  1. #1

    Default Speeds of aircraft in game.

    I have been doing some work developing a way to use combat gliders in WGS. I have become stymied in trying to reflect its speed in game terms. All published aircraft have a fairly linear relationship between max speed at sea level and the length of the high speed arrow on their "straight" card. Unfortunately, when plotting this out graphically, it appears that at a high speed of ~ 180-185 mph, your maneuver arrow would be zero cm in length....either I have bad data, the curve is not linear at the low end, or this is an inherent limitation of this game system. Is there another option I am missing? All insights welcome.

  2. #2

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    Bob - where are you getting 180 - 185mph ?

    Seems pretty fast to me. I would expect the glider to be basically flown with stall cards.

    This website shows maximum towed speed of 150mph.

    This site shows gliding speed of 72mph.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Bob - where are you getting 180 - 185mph ?

    Seems pretty fast to me. I would expect the glider to be basically flown with stall cards.

    This website shows maximum towed speed of 150mph.

    This site shows gliding speed of 72mph.
    My reference to 180 is where the speed arrow intersects the Y axis of the graph, when you plot speed in mph vs length of high speed arrow, which I have plotted for currently published aircraft, none of which have a top speed of 180. 180 is a straight line extrapolation from other published data points. You are correct, VNE for the CG-4a is 150 mph, which would be...a high speed arrow of negative length. For CG-4a performance, I have the pilot's training manual. Here is the graph:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As you can see, you can't get down to 150 without going negative.
    Last edited by BB401; 08-28-2018 at 20:13.

  4. #4

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    Sorry - you are way ahead of me.


    "I Should Have Known Better"

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB401 View Post
    ....either I have bad data, the curve is not linear at the low end, or this is an inherent limitation of this game system. Is there another option I am missing?
    All of the above I suspect Bob !
    WGS is not my thing but I expect that the speeds are treated in a similar way to WGF in that they are banded. In WGF it's 20kph a band, I have no idea what it would be in WGS but probably a lot more than that. Maybe that covers some of the gap ?
    Have a look in the WW2 custom cards here - there are some made up slow decks in there, also cards for slow planes like the Supermarine Walrus, and I know some people have Swordfish - they are twice as fast as a glider gliding (72mph) but may give you a pointer. Hopefully somebody with knowledge of those types will pipe up and give you the gen you need.
    Failing that decide to use something like an arrowhead (ie 0 cm) as the model will still move its stand length (6.8cm) or make something up where it moves part of its stand length (ie negatively). You could also see where 210mph falls on your chart and just calculate a third of the speed in cm but that may yield a similar result to that I've already suggested. Good luck, I hope you work it out.

    "He is wise who watches"

  6. #6

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    For ery slow aircraft either use Zoe's decks in file section but basically you move front of aircraft to arrow on card not rear of base. This allows for slower speeds.

    Neil

    PS: Apologies for not posting links but I'm on my mobile.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  7. #7

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    Card for a glider? Here: DFS-230 Assault Glider - Model and Card

    Along with a discussion of armed gliders...
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #8

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    Since the length of a base card gives you 190MPH, you need to use Zoe Brian's card only method:
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...-cards-needed)

    I have a file here with the speeds for arrows only;
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=2585
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=2586
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    For ery slow aircraft either use Zoe's decks in file section but basically you move front of aircraft to arrow on card not rear of base. This allows for slower speeds.

    Neil

    PS: Apologies for not posting links but I'm on my mobile.
    This makes sense, will explore accordingly, and report back. My first foray into Really Slow Aircraft

  10. #10

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    I'm using the ZL,ZM, ZN decks at present for Sino-Japanese war 1938.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  11. #11

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    Once at Prague Con we were playing a Spanish Civil War scenario with I-153s and He-51s minis using such slow speed cards.
    While the game itself was really fun, usage of the cards was not very convenient. Another issue was the distance to be covered between opposing planes.
    IMHO the early war WGS encounters should be rescaled (longer speed arrows) to make using of the cards and the game much more playable.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    I'm using the ZL,ZM, ZN decks at present for Sino-Japanese war 1938.
    They are valid for speeds as low as 200mph, but as has been stated, below that you need negative length and a different game mechanic.

    ZJ Deck : For P-26, PzL-11, Dewoitine 510 and all monoplanes with speed 355-400 km/h
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1244

    ZM Deck : For Hs123, I-15, He51, and all biplanes with speed 305-350 km/h
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1243

    ZL Deck : The ZL deck for : Fiat CR.32, I-152, Ki-10. For Biplanes with speeds 355-400 km/h
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1242

  13. #13

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    I thought the agreed mechanics were to move front of base to arrow instead of normal rear base to arrow to compensate?

    Neil

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    They are valid for speeds as low as 200mph, but as has been stated, below that you need negative length and a different game mechanic.

    ZJ Deck : For P-26, PzL-11, Dewoitine 510 and all monoplanes with speed 355-400 km/h
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1244

    ZM Deck : For Hs123, I-15, He51, and all biplanes with speed 305-350 km/h
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1243

    ZL Deck : The ZL deck for : Fiat CR.32, I-152, Ki-10. For Biplanes with speeds 355-400 km/h
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1242
    See you on the Dark Side......

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Once at Prague Con we were playing a Spanish Civil War scenario with I-153s and He-51s minis using such slow speed cards.
    While the game itself was really fun, usage of the cards was not very convenient. Another issue was the distance to be covered between opposing planes.
    IMHO the early war WGS encounters should be rescaled (longer speed arrows) to make using of the cards and the game much more playable.
    A long term project of mine, as well as adding some variance to the planes.
    On hold while my life rebalances, I'm afraid.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  15. #15

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    What about having the slower-speed glider to move only every other card, or every third card played by the faster aircraft? Would that address the problem with speed differential between the two?

    For example, the glider and the fighter (whatever it is) both move on the first card played. On the next two cards played by the fighter the glider doesn't move. On the next card played (4th by the fighter) the glider also moves. It wouldn't be completely simultaneous movement, but I think it might be as close as you can come.

  16. #16

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    Thanks for all the ideas and input. I am working through all of it and should have something to share for comment in a week or so. It has taken over a table....
    Click image for larger version. 

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  17. #17

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    Cards...

    Gotha Go.242
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    General Aircraft Horsa
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    Waco CG-4A
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    Stats...

    ?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  18. #18

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    Glider rules have been brought up before, with no real resolution. Mostly, I think, because if a fighter gets in among them, they're pretty much goners.
    But, hey, should be a visual scenario to see.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  19. #19

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    Up to four MGs on this glider?

    Gotha Go-242 A-2
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Including one in the rear top window, as a dorsal turret. Hmmm...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note: THe above should be a Go.242 B-2. Also note the MG barrel in the right side, under the wing. There were up to four MG positions on some gliders.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

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    I am finally to the point of playtesting. V3 of rules and a full set of proxy collaterals. I will publish the AARs elsewhere on the Drome. Stay tuned.....Click image for larger version. 

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  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB401 View Post
    I am finally to the point of playtesting. V3 of rules and a full set of proxy collaterals. I will publish the AARs elsewhere on the Drome. Stay tuned.....Click image for larger version. 

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    The first, and subsequent AARs can be found here: https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...408#post485408

  22. #22

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    So, for lunchtime reading in the Museum Library, I ran across this:

    Amazon.com - Fighting Gliders of World War II
    James E. Mrazek, 1977
    ISBN: 0 7091 5083 0
    192 pages

    Anyone read, or have, this? In this book, it covers all the major combatants, including Russia and Japan, and their gliders. Really cool was that both Germans and Americans used gliders as mobil repair shops.

    Germans used them for their fighter squadrons on the Eastern front, to provide immediate repair facilities when moving squadrons from place to place, and truck travel was unreliable.

    Americans used them for their Armored units, to attempt to keep repair facilities close to the rapidly advancing units.

    Also, Americans developed a "Glider 'Snatch' Pick-up Technique that let a low flying tow plane pick up gliders and tow them back to an airfield after a drop. They used this technique to get wounded soldiers back from Normandy and in Burma. This also let them recover any undamaged, or easily repaired, gliders, instead of disassebling them and trucking them back to the ships to take to Britian.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Pick-up was done at 140mph, and the glider was airborne and moving at 120mph in moments. This was done with empty and fully loaded gliders, with equally good results.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    So, for lunchtime reading in the Museum Library, I ran across this:

    Amazon.com - Fighting Gliders of World War II
    James E. Mrazek, 1977
    ISBN: 0 7091 5083 0
    192 pages

    Anyone read, or have, this? In this book, it covers all the major combatants, including Russia and Japan, and their gliders. Really cool was that both Germans and Americans used gliders as mobil repair shops.

    Germans used them for their fighter squadrons on the Eastern front, to provide immediate repair facilities when moving squadrons from place to place, and truck travel was unreliable.

    Americans used them for their Armored units, to attempt to keep repair facilities close to the rapidly advancing units.

    Also, Americans developed a "Glider 'Snatch' Pick-up Technique that let a low flying tow plane pick up gliders and tow them back to an airfield after a drop. They used this technique to get wounded soldiers back from Normandy and in Burma. This also let them recover any undamaged, or easily repaired, gliders, instead of disassebling them and trucking them back to the ships to take to Britian.


    Pick-up was done at 140mph, and the glider was airborne and moving at 120mph in moments. This was done with empty and fully loaded gliders, with equally good results.
    So they would drop in a glider w/ parts and equipment to forward troops? Then retrieve them? That's awesome. I had no idea about that.

    What museum are you having lunch inside?



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