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Thread: DO.217 stats

  1. #1

    Default DO.217 stats

    Here is the work of today. Some discussion about crew shifting for gun positions is needed.

    Note: the E models were all around workhorses, the K2 and 3 models dedicated to the Fritz X and Henschel Hs 293 guided weapons. The K-1 and M-1 models were improved night bombers.
    The J and N models were night fighters. All use a bomber base.

    Hits: 30

    Maneuver decks:
    217Es and Ns: L(b)-: only the 30 degree turns, no reversals, no extreme side slips, and
    only one of the set of regular side slips, as a difficult maneuver <>.
    217Ks and Ms: K(b)- only the 30 degree turns, no reversals, no extreme side slips, and
    no fast SS;
    217Js: XB deck.

    Ceilings:
    217Es and Ms: 8 (M goes to 10 when unloaded)
    217Js and Ns: 9
    217Ks: 10

    Climbs:
    217Es, Js and Ks: 9
    217Ms: 7

    Guns: There are 6 possible gun positions for all models. In some models, some guns are deleted. Here are the arcs, and I'll get to each model:
    Nose gun (N): 12 O'clock line level (fixed). Pilot.
    Forward gun (FG): 11:00 to 1:00, level to high
    Dorsal Gun (DG): 4:00 to 8:00, level to high
    Ventral Gun (VG): 5:00 to 7:00, low only
    Right Gun (RG): 4:00 to5:00 level to high
    Left Gun (LG): 7:00 to 8:00, level to high.

    E models: All guns are A/A. Early E-1s delete RG and LG.

    J1 and 2: FG: C-C-C-C-B-B/C-C-B. (Note: these are fixed guns, but I'm keeping the limited
    arc due to the lack of maneuverability of the plane).
    DG: A/A. VG: A/A. Delete N, RG and LG.

    K2,3 M-1: All gun positions A/A. Delete N.

    N-1: FG: C-C-C-C-B-B/C-C-B. (Note: these are fixed guns, but I'm keeping the limited
    arc due to the lack of maneuverability of the plane).
    DG: A/A. VG: A/A. Delete N, RG and LG.
    N-1/U1: Delete DG and VG.
    N-1/U3: Delete DG and VG. Add 4xC/2xC Schräge Musik.
    N-2: as N-1/U3, but Schräge Musik may be 2 or 4 cannon.

    Personal note: the use of the K deck for the K and M models results in a slow speed that is too fast (not an uncommon problem with using the fighter decks for bombers).
    As a possible solution for the graphic program adepts out there, use the slow speeds from the J deck with the same limitations (in this case, no fast SSs).
    If you chose to, please share the hybrid deck with us.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  2. #2

    Default

    Here's a bit to start discussion about gunner positions:
    I'm not sure about this, Mike. Here's a open view I found on the web:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	do217k-2 Cockpit open view.png 
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ID:	251917

    49 is the bombardier/front gunner seat. 57 is the seat for the wing guns; I'm assuming it's the radio operator/ventral gunner. 61 is the rear gunner.
    It looks difficult for the FG to get past his seat to get to the wing guns, but just as bad for the ventral gunner to climb back up to the seat.
    GKBiven the limited arcs on them, they hardly seem worth it. That said, I would let the front gunner and the radio operator to switch between those 3 gun positions
    (with only 1 wing gun usable at a time), but with at least a phase delay.
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #3

    Default

    I was speculating about gunners moving around, and it wasn't a very well informed speculation, at that. I'll go with more educated opinions.

    You didn't put in an arc for the Dorsal turret. Is it the same as the dorsal gun? It almost isn't worth the weight of putting a turret in, if all it does is give an arc equivalent to the E rear gun.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  4. #4

    Default

    Yes, the turret is the same as the swivel gun. It might turn a bit more, but you have interference from the engines and props. No indication it can shoot forwards.
    I think the turret is a bit more aerodynamic. Also, they were flying higher, so this is better for the crew.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Yes, the turret is the same as the swivel gun. It might turn a bit more, but you have interference from the engines and props. No indication it can shoot forwards.
    I think the turret is a bit more aerodynamic. Also, they were flying higher, so this is better for the crew.
    Karl
    To what "swivel gun" are you referring? The above list of guns only indicates a "Dorsal Gun (DG): 4:00 to 8:00, level to high". So, the dorsal turret is the same?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  6. #6

    Default

    Gents I found this info that may help your decision making - I highlighted the relevant bit:
    In relation to the Do.217E-1
    A single 15-mm MG151 cannon was mounted in the nose, and five 7.9-mm machine guns provided defensive armament. These proved to be less effective than might be imagined, because four of them had to be manned by the radio operator. The Do 217E-1s were followed by the Do 217E-2, the first version to have a gun turret in the aft cockpit. The similar Do 217E-3 and E-4 subsequently replaced the Do 217E-2 an the production lines.
    http://www.456fis.org/DORNIER_Do-217.htm

    It would appear the R/O handled all the guns bar the ventral or later the turret mount and the pilot used the cannon.

    Last edited by flash; 07-31-2018 at 01:39.

    "He is wise who watches"

  7. #7

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    Default

    Great cut-away drawing and link, Dave! Having moved around in the nose of a B-25, albeit at my 1985 weight and not a 1943 weight, I can attest to how cramped the cockpit area is. And while a B-17 is bigger and roomier, it isn't a whole lot better....and that was stationary on the ground!

    You would have to be a pretty skinny, agile fellow to move from place to place during flight/air combat...

    Looking closer at your drawing, Karl, is there a turret 'cage' depicted on it with a seat that swivels? It looks like the support for 61 is the accordian shaped sort of thing that would indicate seat movement...

    Great stuff here to fuel discussion, though

    All the best,
    Matt

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    To what "swivel gun" are you referring? The above list of guns only indicates a "Dorsal Gun (DG): 4:00 to 8:00, level to high". So, the dorsal turret is the same?
    Dorsal gun and turret are the same.
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  9. #9

    Default

    Based on what I've managed to find on German WWII gun positions, and lacking anything on the Do.217 turrets, I'm suggesting this:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WGS-Do217-StabKG100_PlaneCardV2.jpg 
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    [Edit: Now with the correct damage and maneuver deck!]

    Having done that, I am going back to the Do.17 card I put out, and I'm going to cut the dorsal arc on that back to 180 degrees, as it is presently way too wide (200 degrees, presently). Even combining the right and left gun positions together, it still wouldn't be able to fire that far forwards with the side guns.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-06-2018 at 10:53.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

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    I can see #4 swinging as far as a 180, but no over the engine nacelles and the props. Why is the #4 octagon white?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  11. #11

    Default

    An unreleased card from the Wings of War Spanish Civil War box:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Do17scw.png 
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ID:	252420

    Now that I've seen the videos on the He.111 bubble window mounts, I'm thinking the number 2 arc is far to liberal for this version of the Do.17. I would do the 180° thing with this plane, and add in the side guns with the narrower arcs. Note that the props are not considered as blocking line of sight, as well. Not saying I agree with that, either.

    This image is from the Ares site, for their B-25C (Bauer) plane:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	800x600_ww2-wings-of-glory_WGS302B-Plane.jpg 
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ID:	252422
    The white-centered hex is for an above-level 360° arc, the red hex represents the on-level arc, I believe (I don't own this plane). Note that, again, the props don't appear to block line of site. Not saying I agree with this, either.

    Current He.111 H-3 card:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	800x600_ww2-wings-of-glory_WGS301A-Plane.jpg 
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ID:	252423
    Note on this card, props are not considered, but the potential for 360° above-level arc is not considered.

    I am using these cards as part of my ideas for the Do.217. With the arc on the He.111, based on the videos I've seen, the dorsal position should also be 360° above level, not just the large on-level arc. The Do.217 has a definite turret, not a swivel mount. I can't see the Germans putting all the effort into doing this mount ( in 1942), if it isn't, at least, as effective as an He.111 dorsal mount (designed in 1939). What are you using for a reference that restricts this mount so much?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-06-2018 at 08:38.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

    Default

    Updated Do.17 Z card with revised rear arc:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WGS-Work-Do17-Card_180Arc.jpg 
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ID:	252424

    Updated Do.17 E card with revised rear arcs:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WGS-Work-Do17-Card_SCW180ArcAlt.jpg 
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ID:	252428

    PS: Darn. The Do.17 E had a B-Stand gun, similar to the He.111. So, the 200 degree arc should be similar.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WGS-Work-Do17-Card_SCW200Arc.jpg 
Views:	19 
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ID:	252427
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-06-2018 at 10:42.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59



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