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Thread: Adding some spice to the French

  1. #1

    Default Adding some spice to the French

    When I mention playing the French against the Germans. "It is going to be exciting for the French players" has been never spoken. I must admit playing the French is like eating pasta without the tomato sauce. Bland and boring.

    I have found the game is better if a plane has at least one advantage over the other. Looking at the Spad VII vs the Albatros D.Va
    Both use the B deck for speed and maneuverability and the Albatros has twin guns vs one gun for the Spad VII.
    Even against the Albatros D.III the speed difference does not make up for twin guns.

    Looking at the stats and this has been posted before.

    The Spad VII has the stats for the 150hp model, the 180hp was first used in Jan 1917 and was standard production in Mar/Apr 1917.

    House rule #1 Spad VII 180hp
    "A+" maneuver deck with a left and right side slip added.
    Max altitude of 12 climb 2

    House rule #2 Nieuport 16 (as discussed before) max speed was 165 km/h or 102mph.
    "V" maneuver deck (thanks Dave!)
    Max altitude of 11 climb 3

    With those two house rules the French can met the Germans on better terms during the proper time frames.

    Lets look at some Shapeways aircraft to add some zing. all from the the Unapproved committee.


    Nieuport 24/27
    17Q2-18Q2 F-B or A -13-12-3

    Spad 11, the French were looking for a 2 seat fighter similar to the F2A and fell short, but still not too shabby
    17Q4-18Q3 H-B/B-15-11-3

    Spad 16 an improvement over the Spad 11
    18Q3-18Q4 H-B/A-16-11-3

    Letord 1/2 slow but heavily armed
    17Q2-18Q4 Y-B/A or A/A-18-12-5

    Caudron R.11 great escort aircraft that can hold its own
    18Q3-18Q4 B-A/A-18-14-4


    Enjoy

  2. #2

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    The SPAD VII has a climb rate of 2 and a ceiling of 14. It beats both of the Albatrosses in those repects but you need to play using the altitude rules.

    When we eventually see the Series 4 reprints there will be some Breguet 14 models again and they can be 'tough customers'.

  3. #3

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    Thanks! Used a old card because it reads 14 and 3. Tear that one up.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    ...
    The Spad VII has the stats for the 150hp model, the 180hp was first used in Jan 1917 and was standard production in Mar/Apr 1917.
    ...
    Regarding the Spad VII, I believe the designer of the game has confirmed the stats listed in the game are for the 180hp model.
    The stats for the Spad VII 150hp are worse than the existing.
    So, it's climb counters becomes 3 not 2.
    The good news though is that a two gunned version of the Spad VII 180hp existed.
    It's power to weight ratio, streamlined design and wing loading looks promising enough to support the extra gun without effecting performance (unlike such planes as the DH2).
    Consequently it's climb rate could be 2 but to err on the side of caution, I'd set it to 3 because then it becomes a very even match for an Alb DVa.

    Regarding the Nieuport 16, it's performance was better than the N11 but due to frame issues and wing loading it has significant handling issues.
    Consequently it was a stop gap before the N17 made it obsolete and fairly quickly phased out.
    Consequently it's performance should be better than the N11 but worse than the N17.
    The stats you've quoted seem to me to be a reasonable compromise given the limitations of the game.
    Possibly the climb counters of 3 might be overly generous but the alternative of 4 would be overly mean.

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...+spad+guynemer

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...=Guynemer+udet
    Last edited by Nicola Zee; 07-28-2018 at 06:46. Reason: Link Added

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola Zee View Post
    Regarding the Spad VII, I believe the designer of the game has confirmed the stats listed in the game are for the 180hp model.
    The stats for the Spad VII 150hp are worse than the existing.
    So, it's climb counters becomes 3 not 2.
    The good news though is that a two gunned version of the Spad VII 180hp existed.
    It's power to weight ratio, streamlined design and wing loading looks promising enough to support the extra gun without effecting performance (unlike such planes as the DH2).
    Consequently it's climb rate could be 2 but to err on the side of caution, I'd set it to 3 because then it becomes a very even match for an Alb DVa.

    Regarding the Nieuport 16, it's performance was better than the N11 but due to frame issues and wing loading it has significant handling issues.
    Consequently it was a stop gap before the N17 made it obsolete and fairly quickly phased out.
    Consequently it's performance should be better than the N11 but worse than the N17.
    The stats you've quoted seem to me to be a reasonable compromise given the limitations of the game.
    Possibly the climb counters of 3 might be overly generous but the alternative of 4 would be overly mean.

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...+spad+guynemer

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...=Guynemer+udet
    Yes, you are correct! This is the reason I put them under house rules. I do not use altitude they were just a add on and a misguided one at that.

    But, speed wise the Spad VII 180hp (132 mph at sea level) was faster then any production Albatros Va (116 mph) and Albatros D.III 253 (126 mph).

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Yes, you are correct! This is the reason I put them under house rules. I do not use altitude they were just a add on and a misguided one at that.

    But, speed wise the Spad VII 180hp (132 mph at sea level) was faster then any production Albatros Va (116 mph) and Albatros D.III 253 (126 mph).
    I've taken some time before replying because I needed to think about things.
    In previous posts the game designer has stated his preference for avoiding multiple movement decks for the same plane.
    But I've reached the conclusion the introduction of speciality cards for planes has set a precedent.
    In short, if the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter can have 2 movement decks (one with and one without the Immelmann) it seems to me other planes can have different movement decks.

    I suspect one of the practical reasons why the game designer was against having different movement decks for the same plane is there are a limited number of choices for each plane. There are only so many decks and climb counter options.
    But this might be OK as long as the relative performance of the planes are taken into account.

    In the case of the Spad VII we have the following relative performances

    1. Spad VII (150hp) [Official] < 2. Spad VII (180hp) A gun < 3. Spad VII (180hp) B gun < 4. Spad XIII (220hp) [Official]

    Now what IMHO is critical is the performance of the Spad VII (180hp) A gun is worse than the Spad XIII (220hp) [Official] because - as far as I know - all the sources claim the Spad XIII was an improvement on the Spad VII.
    There is a popular conviction the British, French and German top brass were all a bunch of total idiots but this is a bit of a myth.
    It is unlikely the top brass would go to the trouble of making huge numbers of Spad XIII's unless it really was better.

    I would be reluctant to make the A deck for the Spad VII (180hp) better than the A deck for the Spad XIII.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola Zee View Post
    ...if the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter can have 2 movement decks (one with and one without the Immelmann) it seems to me other planes can have different movement decks...
    That's an adjustment down to doctrine rather than performance though, so not quite the same issue. The Strutter could do it, it just wasn't used that way but I agree that using different decks with different versions may make using certain airframes more interesting. Spicing down as well as up !

    The 150hp S.VII at it's best speed was about 119mph (191kmh) so would just make it as a B deck but when averaged out over altitudes that almost immediately drops firmly into the average speed band (under 180kmh) so a J deck might be the best fit from what's available in the average speed band.
    There were less than 200 delivered by Dec 1917 by which time the Albatrii had taken the skies - steps were made to supply the S.VII with a newly developed 180 HS engine as well as replace it with an improved version with twin guns & the new 200hp HS engine.
    The up-engined S.VII brought it back nearer par with the Albatrii, with a top speed of 129mph (208kmh) it would reach the A deck band but again averaged out over altitudes this would drop it into the top end of B deck range where the current model sits. For a two gun model I'd suggest knocking it down to that of the 150 model as experiments showed 'a drop in performance considered too drastic for the installation to become standard' though it's difficult to know what that means exactly (maybe just the climb rate was ruined ?).
    By the time the 180hp engine was being fitted to all newly produced S.VII's the S.XIII was taking it's first flight.
    Averaged out the S.XIII is easily over the 200kmh for the A deck. Though the new machine had many engine issues and the S.VII served on in support.
    Last edited by flash; 07-29-2018 at 03:41.

    "He is wise who watches"

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    That's an adjustment down to doctrine rather than performance though, so not quite the same issue. The Strutter could do it, it just wasn't used that way but I agree that using different decks with different versions may make using certain airframes more interesting. Spicing down as well as up !

    The 150hp S.VII at it's best speed was about 119mph (191kmh) so would just make it as a B deck but when averaged out over altitudes that almost immediately drops firmly into the average speed band (under 180kmh) so a J deck might be the best fit from what's available in the average speed band.
    There were less than 200 delivered by Dec 1917 by which time the Albatrii had taken the skies - steps were made to supply the S.VII with a newly developed 180 HS engine as well as replace it with an improved version with twin guns & the new 200hp HS engine.
    The up-engined S.VII brought it back nearer par with the Albatrii, with a top speed of 129mph (208kmh) it would reach the A deck band but again averaged out over altitudes this would drop it into the top end of B deck range where the current model sits. For a two gun model I'd suggest knocking it down to that of the 150 model as experiments showed 'a drop in performance considered too drastic for the installation to become standard' though it's difficult to know what that means exactly (maybe just the climb rate was ruined ?).
    By the time the 180hp engine was being fitted to all newly produced S.VII's the S.XIII was taking it's first flight.
    Averaged out the S.XIII is easily over the 200kmh for the A deck. Though the new machine had many engine issues and the S.VII served on in support.
    Overall I agree but my main point was that the performance of the Spad XIII must be better than the Spad VII... otherwise something has gone very wrong.

    As mentioned earlier the game designer in a previous thread has indicated the performance figures given for the Spad VII are for the 180hp engine.
    I've typed the [Official?] in the wrong place! : )

    1. Spad VII (150hp) < 2. Spad VII (180hp) A gun < 3. Spad VII (180hp) B gun [Official?] < 4. Spad XIII (220hp?) [Official]

    Working back from there, the designer has indicated that there are reasons to treat the climb as worse for the 150hp engine resulting in Climb 3.

    So working back we get the following:
    3. Spad VII (180hp) B gun Movement Deck B Climb 2 (to match the existing)
    2. Spad VII (180hp) A gun Movement Deck B Climb 3
    1. Spad VII (150hp) B gun Movement Deck J? Climb 3

    IMHO the real debate is whether movement deck for the Spad VII (150hp) should be J or B.

  9. #9

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    Having had a root around on t'internet the figures quoted below, if correct, even if averaged out, would seem to put the 150 in the B movement deck bracket & the 180 in the A...Just. So pays yer money and takes yer choice !

    150 hp:at sea level 193km/h (120mph), at 2,000m-187km/h (116mph), at 3,000m-180km/h (112mph), at 4,000m-174km/h (108mph)
    180 hp: at 2,000m 212km/h (132mph), at 3,000m-204km/h (127 mph), at 4,000m-200km/h (124mph)

    Putnams "The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing).

    Data from Dr. James J. Davilla, Arthur M. Soltan - French Aircraft of the First World War:

    SPAD 7 / 150 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Aa

    Span: 7.822m
    Length: 6.080m
    Height: 2.200m
    Wing Area: 17.85 sq.m
    Empty weight: 500kg
    Loaded weight: 705kg
    Maximum Speed:
    sea level: 193 km/h
    2000m: 187 km/h
    3000m: 180 km/h
    4000m: 174 km/h
    Climb:
    2000m: 6 min 40 sec
    3000m: 11 min 20 sec
    Ceiling: 5500m
    Range: 400km
    Endurance: 2.66 hours

    SPAD 7 / 180 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Ab

    Span: 7.822m
    Length: 6.080m
    Height: 2.200m
    Wing Area: 17.85 sq.m
    Empty weight: 500kg
    Loaded weight: 705kg
    Maximum Speed:
    2000m: 212 km/h
    3000m: 204 km/h
    4000m: 200 km/h
    5000m: 187 km/h
    Climb:
    2000m: 4 min 40 sec
    3000m: 8 min 10 sec
    4000m: 12 min 49 sec
    Ceiling: 6553m
    Endurance: 1.5 hours

    Winsock Datafile gives only the 180 option:

    2000m - 212kph (132mph);
    3000m - 204kph (127mph);
    climb to 3km - 8m10s.

    I've seen these elsewhere - quoted from Flight magazine.
    SPAD 7 / 150 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Aa:
    6500 ft: 119.5 mph (191kph)
    9800 ft: 111.5 mph (178kph)
    13100 ft: 108 mph (174kph)


    SPAD 7 / 180 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Ab:
    6500 ft: 132 mph (212kph)
    9800 ft: 126 mph (202kph)
    13100 ft: 124.5 mph (199kph)
    16400 ft: 116 mph (186kph)

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Having had a root around on t'internet the figures quoted below, if correct, even if averaged out, would seem to put the 150 in the B movement deck bracket & the 180 in the A...Just. So pays yer money and takes yer choice !

    150 hp:at sea level 193km/h (120mph), at 2,000m-187km/h (116mph), at 3,000m-180km/h (112mph), at 4,000m-174km/h (108mph)
    180 hp: at 2,000m 212km/h (132mph), at 3,000m-204km/h (127 mph), at 4,000m-200km/h (124mph)

    Putnams "The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing).

    Data from Dr. James J. Davilla, Arthur M. Soltan - French Aircraft of the First World War:

    SPAD 7 / 150 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Aa

    Span: 7.822m
    Length: 6.080m
    Height: 2.200m
    Wing Area: 17.85 sq.m
    Empty weight: 500kg
    Loaded weight: 705kg
    Maximum Speed:
    sea level: 193 km/h
    2000m: 187 km/h
    3000m: 180 km/h
    4000m: 174 km/h
    Climb:
    2000m: 6 min 40 sec
    3000m: 11 min 20 sec
    Ceiling: 5500m
    Range: 400km
    Endurance: 2.66 hours

    SPAD 7 / 180 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Ab

    Span: 7.822m
    Length: 6.080m
    Height: 2.200m
    Wing Area: 17.85 sq.m
    Empty weight: 500kg
    Loaded weight: 705kg
    Maximum Speed:
    2000m: 212 km/h
    3000m: 204 km/h
    4000m: 200 km/h
    5000m: 187 km/h
    Climb:
    2000m: 4 min 40 sec
    3000m: 8 min 10 sec
    4000m: 12 min 49 sec
    Ceiling: 6553m
    Endurance: 1.5 hours

    Winsock Datafile gives only the 180 option:

    2000m - 212kph (132mph);
    3000m - 204kph (127mph);
    climb to 3km - 8m10s.

    I've seen these elsewhere - quoted from Flight magazine.
    SPAD 7 / 150 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Aa:
    6500 ft: 119.5 mph (191kph)
    9800 ft: 111.5 mph (178kph)
    13100 ft: 108 mph (174kph)


    SPAD 7 / 180 hp Hispano Suiza 8 Ab:
    6500 ft: 132 mph (212kph)
    9800 ft: 126 mph (202kph)
    13100 ft: 124.5 mph (199kph)
    16400 ft: 116 mph (186kph)
    Yes all great stuff and informative.
    But to repeat myself again the big issue is the performance of the Spad XIII must be better than the Spad VII... otherwise something has gone wrong.
    If the Spad VII (180hp) ends up with the 'A' deck (and it's supposed to be a bit more manoeuvrable as well) it becomes almost as good as the Spad XIII.
    Hence the B movement deck is the safer option.

    My personal preference is as follows:
    3. Spad VII (180hp) B gun Movement Deck B Climb 2 (to match the existing official figures for the Spad VII)
    2. Spad VII (180hp) A gun Movement Deck B Climb 3
    1. Spad VII (150hp) B gun Movement Deck B Climb 3

    But really only because I like to keep things simple and it makes the Spad VII a fairly even match for the Alb!

  11. #11

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    I used these ref also
    Putnams "The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing).
    Dr. James J. Davilla, Arthur M. Soltan - French Aircraft of the First World War

    plus Osprey Duel Spad VII vs Albatros D.III
    which has the Spad VII 180hp
    2000m 132mph
    3000m 127
    4000m 124
    climb to
    2000m 4min40sec
    3000m 8min10sec
    Service ceiling 21,500ft

    The Spad VII was more maneuverable than the Spad XIII.

    The advantage of the Spad XIII was it had twin guns, more rugged and was slightly faster.

    The French used the Spad VII until the end of the war in numbers because of the unreliable engine of the Spad XIII.

    Using the Spad VII 150hp "B deck" vs the Albatros D.III not a bad match up because the Spad VII has a speed advantage.
    Using the Spad VII 180hp "A+" deck vs the Albatros D.V/Va, Pfalz D.III and Fokker Dr.I also not a bad match up because the Spad VII has a speed advantage.

    Nicola, I want to thank you for your thoughtful posts and yes I flipped/flopped from my earlier postings when the Spad VII was first announced.

  12. #12

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    I do not think the French ever used the Spad VII with two guns.

    Had to look it up on Wiki
    The first British-built S.VII was flown and tested in April 1917, and the first aircraft was reported to have performance equal to that of French models. There were however differences between the two types. The British were worried about the light armament of the S.VII: most German fighters were now carrying two guns and experiments were made to fit an extra machine gun on the S.VII. One aircraft was fitted with a Lewis machine gun on the top wing and tested at Martlesham Heath in May 1917, while front line units also made field modifications with Foster mounts as used on the S.E.5. The resulting drop in performance was considered too drastic for the installation to become standard, and most SPAD S.VIIs continued to fly with a single Vickers.

    If I were to use the Spad VII twin gun version I'm in agreement with using the "B" deck also. A great option for the British.
    Last edited by john snelling; 07-29-2018 at 10:56.

  13. #13

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    I did not know this.


    It quickly became apparent that the British production lines of the S.VII had lower quality standards than their French counterparts, resulting in aircraft with degraded performances and handling. Poor fabric sewing, fragile tailskids and radiators of insufficient effectiveness plagued the British SPADs. Photographic evidence shows that a number of British SPADs had the cylinder banks fairings, or even the entire upper engine cowling, cut out to compensate for the ill-functioning radiators. Most British S.VIIs were used for training purposes, front line units being equipped with French-built models. After some 220 aircraft had been produced, British production of the S.VII was halted in favour of better British types that were becoming available.

    There was a Spad VII British built example at the Richmond VA museum (now closed).

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I used these ref also
    Putnams "The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing).
    Dr. James J. Davilla, Arthur M. Soltan - French Aircraft of the First World War

    plus Osprey Duel Spad VII vs Albatros D.III
    which has the Spad VII 180hp
    2000m 132mph
    3000m 127
    4000m 124
    climb to
    2000m 4min40sec
    3000m 8min10sec
    Service ceiling 21,500ft

    The Spad VII was more maneuverable than the Spad XIII.

    The advantage of the Spad XIII was it had twin guns, more rugged and was slightly faster.

    The French used the Spad VII until the end of the war in numbers because of the unreliable engine of the Spad XIII.

    Using the Spad VII 150hp "B deck" vs the Albatros D.III not a bad match up because the Spad VII has a speed advantage.
    Using the Spad VII 180hp "A+" deck vs the Albatros D.V/Va, Pfalz D.III and Fokker Dr.I also not a bad match up because the Spad VII has a speed advantage.

    Nicola, I want to thank you for your thoughtful posts and yes I flipped/flopped from my earlier postings when the Spad VII was first announced.
    Thanks for the thanks. I flip/flop all the time. To be honest (for all sorts of reasons) estimating performance of WW1 planes involves a lot of guess-timation.

    Ideally, I would like for the Spad VII 180hp a new movement deck which is basically a faster 'B' deck. This would make the Spad XIII faster than the Spad VII 180 (but not as manoeuvrable). There were over 8,000 Spad XIII built and it would be odd to build so many unless there were clear advantages over the earlier design!
    But I can understand why the game designer may be less than enthusiastic about introducing new decks which are slightly different from existing decks.



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