Pfalz Scouts in June/July 1918
I have been following a thread on the Aerodrome Historical site by Graeme "100 years ago today" with great input from Russ Gannon & others.
One thing that stood out was the numbers of Pfalz listed in the claims made by Allied pilots during this time. I did not realise the old Pfalz D.IIIa's were still doing stirling service.
I suppose they might include the later Pfalz models but not sure when those became available.
Pfalz D.XII started to arrive at the Front a month or so after the Fokker D.VII, so probably late May onwards.
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
According to Pfalz Aircraft of World War 1 (Jack Harris, author, Flying Machine Press, publisher), the Pfalz D-III/D-IIIa was in fact used right up to the end of the war, although the numbers at the front declined significantly after the Fokker D-VII & Pfalz D-XII became available.
Thought that was the case.Originally Posted by zenlizard
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
31 Aug 1917
Pfalz D.III-- 3
31 Oct 1917
Pfalz D.III --145
31 Dec 1917
Pfalz D.III----276
Pflaz D.IIIa---114
28 Feb 1918
Pflaz D.IIIa---261
Pfalz D.III----182
30 APR 1918
Pflaz D.IIIa---433
Pfalz D.III----13
30 Jun 1918
Pflaz D.IIIa--289
Pfalz D.III-----13
Pflaz D.VIII---14
Pfalz D.XII----5
Pfalz Dr.I----- 7
31 Aug 1918
Pfalz D.XII---168
Pflaz D.IIIa--166
Pfalz D.III------3
Pflaz D.VIII----19
Pfalz Dr.I--------1
Sorry about the spacing.
I hope this helps
Wow, they actually used some Pfalz Dr.Is
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Yeah.............Wow, they actually used some Pfalz Dr.Is
Karl
Great info John - many thanks for posting it!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
No problem, I'm just glad some people are interested.Yeah.............
Great info John - many thanks for posting it!
Very interesting and helpful data John, thanks. I always like your time/numbers lists.
No problem, I'm just glad some people are interested.
Yes John, many thanks for that.
Very enlightening.
This chart (which is in the Files section) shows the percentage of fighters of each type that were at the front for each two-month period we have Frontbestand data. As you can see, the Pfalz D.III makes a strong showing starting in Autumn 1917, then the D.IIIa, and it's still a significant percentage at the end. Keep in mind these are percentages -- not raw numbers -- which is why the Fokker E.I is at 100% at the beginning, even though few of them were in use. It would have been interesting to see the October'18 numbers, but they were never collected, or they were lost.
Interesting spots are October '16, when there wasn't really a dominant plane (at least, not to the extent of other times). And the Fokker Dr.I line is always a shocker to movie fans.
Fascinating chart Daryl!
October 1916, most common German scout = Fokker D.I ???
Better get some painted up!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
31 Oct 1916
Fokker D.I-----74
Alb D.I--------50
Fokker D.II----49
Halb D.III------32
Alb D.II--------28
Fokker E.III----28
Halb D.IV-------17
Fokker E.IV-----16
Fokker D.III-----6
Halb D.I--------- 6
SSW E.I---------5
Pfalz E.I---------3
Pfalz E.II--------3
Fokker E.II------2
Roland D.I-------1
Total--------- 321
I give up on spacing. Sorry.
Very interesting chart. Oct '16 shows a lot of different planes in action, most on their way out.
It's worse than I thought!
I'd better get a LOT of Fokker D.Is AND D.IIs painted up!!!!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
If you're looking for the "season of fighter diversity" -- at least from the Germans -- autumn of 1916 is it! In fact, looking at things from the other direction -- it is pretty remarkable how "un-diverse" the rest of the war is. There is almost always a dominant fighter by a significant margin: the Eindeckers, the Albatroses, and last the Fokker D.VII.
what Daryl posted
Extremely interesting. Thanks John.
And following Tim, I might need to get some Fokkers into the pipeline.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Better make sure those "fokkers" are Fokkers & not Albatross!
fascinating info guys! thanks for sharing!!!
Thanks, John and Daryl.
Really interesting statistics.
Or don't play October 1916 scenariosI'd better get a LOT of Fokker D.Is AND D.IIs painted up!!!!
That's not difficult - I'm still having trouble with the "unfair" crowd who simply WILL NOT fly single gun Allied planes against twin gun Germans, even with numbers on their side!Or don't play October 1916 scenarios
Introducing Fokker D.1 and D.II planes should help a lot; they are single gun (and Crap!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
LMF Tim, slip 'em the white feather...
Sapiens qui vigilat "He is wise who watches"
Oh, cold there Dave. Most correct, but coldLMF Tim, slip 'em the white feather...
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Oooh noticed my fav Roland D1 on the list, good oh
Plus I got a shapeways Phalz DR1 will have to see if I can find it for this weekend
Better than a Webley with one round Karl - that's cold !Oh, cold there Dave. Most correct, but cold
Karl
Sapiens qui vigilat "He is wise who watches"
...............or a bayonet, with some guts behind it...............
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Stop beating your head against the wall. You are lucky to have guys play against because I did not for a time. Give the crowd what they want twin gun vs twin or 1 vs 1. Also did you correctly describe the difference between the decks it is not double (2x) the damage but 1.6x.That's not difficult - I'm still having trouble with the "unfair" crowd who simply WILL NOT fly single gun Allied planes against twin gun Germans, even with numbers on their side!
Introducing Fokker D.1 and D.II planes should help a lot; they are single gun (and Crap!
I asked the group I belong to "why did they did not want to play WoG", then what they disliked about the specific mechanics. Even though I received a lot of criticism from people on this forum, at least I get to play against a humans and not a piece of paper, not that I mind that either on occasion. I also found getting away from history and going comic book style brought interest back into the game.
Good luck!
At Origins Matt's games with King Kong, Cuthulu and Martians have been the most popular. Adding in something to draw non-historical gamers is a good idea and usually works.
Yes, I explained (at length!) the difference in the damage decks, but then gave up.
Now I just play 'A' guns vs 'A' guns, and 'B' guns vs 'B' guns, and I simply out fly them, and shoot the sh1t out of the lot of them!
Sadly, it just means that my luvverlee Albatros D.Is don't get any games............
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Matt has produced some truly excellent, eye-catching games, but I'm afraid they are not my cup of tea (or glass of Brandy
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Having them listed as 'on strength' does not mean they were actually used or popular. They may have been issued and instantly rejected. Also Pfaltz, as a Bavarian manufacturer, was a supplier to the Bavarian squadrons. This 'special relationship' may mean that Pfaltz side-stepped the usual channels and Bavarian squadrons were obliged to take their products. Note that the Pfaltz Dr1 disappears very quickly. This may indicate combat losses or deliberate prangs to write-off an unpopular type. Crash one into another and you get rid of two useless aircraft in one go and you can requisition for something better, like two DXIIs.Wow, they actually used some Pfalz Dr.Is
Karl
It has been noted that in the movie The Blue Max two Pfaltzs appear and Bruno Stachel refers to 'training on an old Pfaltz'. Uniform experts say that the officers are wearing Bavarian cavalry uniforms so it is to be presumed that the movie squadron IS Bavarian.
Barry
Last edited by 'Warspite'; 08-26-2018 at 02:19. Reason: extra information
One of the things pilots praised the Pfaltz DIII and DIIIa for was its diving ability. At a time when the heavy, streamlined and water-cooled Albatros could not be dived more than 1000 metres or 3000 feet without risk of damaging or losing its wings because of its V-strut design and single spar in the lower wing, the thicker bracing in the Pfaltz and the conventional double spars in the lower wing made the Bavarian machine much stronger and safer. As a good diver the Pfaltz was favoured for balloon-busting attacks and also had a safe escape route (down) when pursued by a less stream-lined rotary-engined machine like the Nieuport, Camel or Sopwith Triplane. The arrival of the heavier Spad XIII and the water-cooled SE5a would tend to reduce or cut off this escape route and may have contributed to more losses with the older types but this is merely speculative on my part.
One thing that stood out was the numbers of Pfalz listed in the claims made by Allied pilots during this time. I did not realise the old Pfalz D.IIIa's were still doing stirling service.
I suppose they might include the later Pfalz models but not sure when those became available.
Barry
Last edited by 'Warspite'; 08-26-2018 at 02:30. Reason: typing error
Not exclusively - Royal Prussian Jagdstaffel 10 was equipped almost exclusively with Pfalz D.IIIs at one point - many other Prussian Jastas also received them.
"The Blue Max" is a great air war film, but not a good historical document..........
Heidemann's squadron is 'Jasta 11' - it's ironic that von Richthofen leaves the airfield to return to "my own Squadron", when he is ALREADY at the Jasta 11 base!
Also, Ziegel complains about having to keep "these old barges" airworthy, when they are actually Fokker D.VIIs! which have not even reached the front as yet (pre-Operation Michael).
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
I was not suggesting any accuracy in the Blue Max. The 'Fokker DVII' with the old-style Iron Crosses and German fighters dropping underwing bombs are two of just many noted errors.
I also never said that the Pfaltz was not used elsewhere. It certainly filtered through to other branches and its popularity with them may come from its diving abilities. Its general handing was certainly 'below par'. My only point was that the Dr1 may have been 'accepted' due to Bavaria's special relationship with the manufacturer.
Barry
Getting curious about the Dr I is just checked my books and Wiki on the type...Wow, they actually used some Pfalz Dr.Is
Karl
Wiki says:
The Pfalz Dr.I was a German fighter prototype of World War I. Official interest in the potential of the triplane configuration for single-seat fighters prompted Pfalz to develop the Dr.I. It underwent initial testing in October 1917, and an initial batch of 10 aircraft were shipped to the Front and arrived in April 1918. Service pilots involved in testing the Dr.I considered it too slow and its Sh III engine too unreliable for front line use and no further examples were produced. Jasta 73 was equipped with this aircraft in 1918.
My books tend to confirm this.
The above quote appears to suggest that Bavaria (or just the Pflatz company) side-stepped the official German flight testing programme established in 1918 and shipped directly to Bavarian squadrons. I can only imagine their reaction!
Last edited by 'Warspite'; 08-26-2018 at 02:56. Reason: changed emoji
The first Fokker D.VIIs delivered to the Front DID carry the Eisnerkreuz, at least on the upper wing.........................
Osprey "Fokker D.VII Aces of World War 1"
photograph page 6, colour plate reconstruction page 43
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Grey and Thetford simply say that it had insufficient improvement over the Fokker Dr.I. I would imagine that skipping the testing program might have had some effect too.Getting curious about the Dr I is just checked my books and Wiki on the type...
Wiki says:
The Pfalz Dr.I was a German fighter prototype of World War I. Official interest in the potential of the triplane configuration for single-seat fighters prompted Pfalz to develop the Dr.I. It underwent initial testing in October 1917, and an initial batch of 10 aircraft were shipped to the Front and arrived in April 1918. Service pilots involved in testing the Dr.I considered it too slow and its Sh III engine too unreliable for front line use and no further examples were produced. Jasta 73 was equipped with this aircraft in 1918.
My books tend to confirm this.
The above quote appears to suggest that Bavaria (or just the Pflatz company) side-stepped the official German flight testing programme established in 1918 and shipped directly to Bavarian squadrons. I can only imagine their reaction!
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
The one/ones in the Blue Max had them all over and continued to have them all over during the '1918 retreat' phase of the film. Various technical experts who worked on the film said they tried to get it changed but were flatly ignored. It is certainly not an historically accurate film. It's a great movie and I love the soundtrack, but not historically accurate.The first Fokker D.VIIs delivered to the Front DID carry the Eisnerkreuz, at least on the upper wing.........................
Osprey "Fokker D.VII Aces of World War 1"
photograph page 6, colour plate reconstruction page 43
Barry
I know!
Shame no one will ever make a truly historically accurate air war movie (or any war movie, for that matter!).
I have been a part of several TV projects, and some of my more distinguished friends Movie projects, and all say the same thing.................no one wants to incorporate historical accuracy; all that matters is "the Director's Vision" or some such.
Case in point: - I was cast as the Sheriff of Lanark in a TV documentary about William Wallace called "The Real Braveheart". The show was aimed at correcting the dozens of myths and inaccuracies of the Mel Gibson movie (a SUPERB action flick, but a 'historical' disaster!)
They asked for the arms and armour likely to have been worn by a minor noble of the early 14th Century.
When I clanked onto set, in multiple layers of maille and plate armour, they were VERY impressed - particularly in how hard it would be to kill someone so well protected. I pointed out that this was the general idea! and that a couple of hundred years of armour evolution had led to this panoply.
In order for Wallace to be able to slit my throat with obvious ease, they asked me to remove various items of armour;
Sugar Loaf Helmet
Secret" helm
Silk surcoat
Maille coif
Coat of Plates
Pauldrons and Besagews
Maille hauberk
Knee cops
shin plates
So that I could be dragged easily, they then asked me to remove the leg maille!
I was left in just my padded undergarments, looking like any other pleb - so they asked me to don the silk surcoat again, and wear my hand-and-a-half Sword of War with this.
I pointed out that I now looked like a thief!
They weren't interested, so we shot the scene as directed.
What a complete and utter waste of 45 mins donning all that armour!!!!!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Case in point (one of many, many, but a sore point for me): The British Lt. Dragoons in Patriot, being in Redcoats. The consulted history experts and the reenactors used all pointed out that they should be in green coats.
The director agreed, but said if they were, the public watching the movie would be confused as to whether they were actually British.
OTOH, the firing drill was excellent!
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Having explained and demonstrated medieval armor at public demos, and fought in the same (Landesknecht 3/4 plate), I feel for you.I know!
Shame no one will ever make a truly historically accurate air war movie (or any war movie, for that matter!).
I have been a part of several TV projects, and some of my more distinguished friends Movie projects, and all say the same thing.................no one wants to incorporate historical accuracy; all that matters is "the Director's Vision" or some such.
Case in point: - I was cast as the Sheriff of Lanark in a TV documentary about William Wallace called "The Real Braveheart". The show was aimed at correcting the dozens of myths and inaccuracies of the Mel Gibson movie (a SUPERB action flick, but a 'historical' disaster!)
They asked for the arms and armour likely to have been worn by a minor noble of the early 14th Century.
When I clanked onto set, in multiple layers of maille and plate armour, they were VERY impressed - particularly in how hard it would be to kill someone so well protected. I pointed out that this was the general idea! and that a couple of hundred years of armour evolution had led to this panoply.
In order for Wallace to be able to slit my throat with obvious ease, they asked me to remove various items of armour;
Sugar Loaf Helmet
Secret" helm
Silk surcoat
Maille coif
Coat of Plates
Pauldrons and Besagews
Maille hauberk
Knee cops
shin plates
So that I could be dragged easily, they then asked me to remove the leg maille!
I was left in just my padded undergarments, looking like any other pleb - so they asked me to don the silk surcoat again, and wear my hand-and-a-half Sword of War with this.
I pointed out that I now looked like a thief!
They weren't interested, so we shot the scene as directed.
What a complete and utter waste of 45 mins donning all that armour!!!!!
Sad, since if "Wallace" was in a position to slit your throat, he should have been able to just lift the skirt of the coif up. Not very visible, but
accurate. My reaction to seeing you in padding and surcoat would either be that you were surprised in camp, or idiotically unprepared on the march, or a ribaud with a recent trophy
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
As a medievalist first and foremost I feel your pain. As a long-time member of the Lance and Longbow Society I have been researching the most accurate and comprehensive list of livery colours for the so-called Wars of the Roses over the last four or five years. So it was doubly irritating for me to see the BBC version of Shakespeare's Richard III, starring Benedict Cumberbatch as Richard III. In the scene where Richard III and Henry Tudor harangue their troops at Bosworth, Henry was addressing the troops which were dressed in Richard's blue and claret household livery while Richard was addressing Henry's tatty and ill-dressed mostly levy mob. In other words the director had stood the two commanders in front of the wrong armies.
Meanwhile TV version of The White Queen had Richard III fighting and dying in a snow-covered forest for their battle of Bosworth - when the real Bosworth was fought on a flat and partially marshy plain in the middle of a rather hot August!
Braveheart? Don't start me on Braveheart, it was a gross insult to the Scots nation. Mel Gibson's Highlanders and Islemen would hardly have been allowed to fight at all while their sharpened stake 'spears' lacked any iron tips. The Scots spears had iron tips. Fire-hardened stakes may have been used by the Picts but that was many hundreds of years before, in the late Roman period and early Dark Ages. Wallace's men had no tartans as we know them, no kilts and their front ranks were probably as well-armoured as the opposing English foot but not quite as well-armoured as the English knights. And that long Scots infantry charge over several hundred feet was actually a fierce Highland 'onset' typical of the 17th and 18th century when Highlanders of those centuries had to close the English musket range as quickly as possible. It nearly worked at Culloden but only failed due to an improved English bayonet drill.
But we ARE going seriously off-topic here!
Barry
Last edited by 'Warspite'; 08-26-2018 at 15:45. Reason: spelling error.
Those Pfalz D.III was not a great aircraft but, they sure got around, Richard the III, Redcoats and William Wallace.
I agree with your findings. I found the Pfalz D.IIIa with the 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa engine max speed was not at ground level but at around 6,500 feet. It was faster at that altitude then the Camel but still lower than the SE5a with the Hispano-Suiza 8B engine. There max ceiling was higher than both the Camel and SE5a. I was watching a SE5a pilot rememberances (sp) he said they were always being jumped from above. "Richthofen's Circus" JG1 also used them effectively (Jasta 10).
Apologies!Those Pfalz D.III was not a great aircraft but, they sure got around, Richard the III, Redcoats and William Wallace.
As I said, we DID go off topic.
As has been pointed out to me, by others, if an aircraft type has a reliably recorded ceiling which is higher than other types yet has an allegedly poorer climb rate, then the alleged climb rate is probably incorrect. The service ceiling is normally the point at which climb rate falls off to below 50 or 100 feet per minute.
As the service ceiling is directly related to climb it therefore follows that one figure or the other is probably incorrect.
Several German aircraft have been the subject of similar discussions, most notably the Pfalzs and the Albatroses. As has been noted in those discussions there are few comprehensive German figures and we have to add in French and British figures from types captured and tested. This has perils of its own as the test aircraft may not have been set up correctly by the ground crew or flown correctly by the pilots. And there is the issue of we Brits having to translate a German altimeter from metres to feet. Finally… there is the psychological issue of wanting to throw shade on an enemy machine and thus praise one's own equipment.
On paper the Pfalz DIII was not brilliant but pilots don't fly on paper, they fly in the real world. Its real-world performance may have been at least marginally better than the papers suggest.
Barry
Last edited by 'Warspite'; 08-31-2018 at 08:21. Reason: added information
When it is the pilots writing up the evaluations, it usually works in the other direction: "The enemy machines are marvels of engineering and ours are obsolete crap! We need better machines.". They tend to reflect such opinions even when patently false.
This might be explained by the pilots always wanting to get more of an edge over their enemies or by having a good excuse for losses. It would be rare to hear a pilot say, "I'm happy with the machine I've got; no need for you manufacturers to look for further improvements" or to say, "you can explain our losses by the fact that our pilots are not very good."
They'll also cherry-pick what to complain about -- for instance damning the early Albatros' maneuverability relative to the enemy while conveniently overlooking the Albatros' doubling of firepower.
Most excellent, sir!
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