WGF/WGS - The Future

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Nice one Dave. Spockhen Sie Deutsch.
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Three new members today. Two German and one Spanish, and that is excluding Spock.
Rob.

[kalnaren]

Availability is a huge issue. The two big hobby shops I originally got most of my inventory from don't carry it any more. I have a couple of friends that would like to get into the game but simply can't get anything. I had the same problem with SoG. There's some more planes for WoG I'd love to have but have never once seen them, anywhere.

I'm sure the near complete lack of marketing doesn't help matters any.

[strontiumdog]

I'm not trying to provoke anyone by saying this, but my honest observation is that the best thing that could happen for the game to be successful in the future would probably be for Ares to sell off the licensing of the game to a company with the financial resources necessary to market it. When were the last new planes released for the WW2 game - has it been two years? If so, and with the next releases (tentatively) scheduled for 3Q of next year, that's about 3 years between releases of new product. That's practically a "how to" manual of how to kill a game.

Unless Ares takes a radically different approach to the game in the very near future the game is likely dead. No game like this, no matter how many diehards it has playing it, can survive long-term if no new players are being brought in.

I was just thinking the same thing today Bob. I cant see how Ares would be worried about shifting the product either - as soon as a wave is released there is almost immediately talk on the forum about when the next one is coming out (yes, i am one of them).

[kalnaren]

Yup.. Seems like the only people I've encountered who have heard of this game are the ones who already play it.

[strontiumdog]

WOG is never going to be a fad game. History is not in fashion these days, hence Ares's expansion to Tripods. Ares will have to cater to the smallish crowd of historical gamers and everything that entails to sustain this line. I hope there's an acceptable economy of scale that would make this a reasonably profitable venture for them. There does seem to be a profit to made in historical board games.

I will never understand why people would rather have weird ww2 or steampunk themed 'history'. How can that compare to the knowledge that, whilst we are only playing a game, real men and women had to do these things for real - often at the cost of their own lives. What can be more gripping than that?

[strontiumdog]

Thank you all for your input, even if i don't agree with you all (and you don't all agree with me of course!).

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Three new members today. Two German and one Spanish, and that is excluding Spock.
Rob.

Make that four today. We just got another UK member.
Rob.

[kalnaren]

I will never understand why people would rather have weird ww2 or steampunk themed 'history'. How can that compare to the knowledge that, whilst we are only playing a game, real men and women had to do these things for real - often at the cost of their own lives. What can be more gripping than that?

I'll try and provide a bit of perspective as possible one of the younger members here (in early 30's... yea, that's right, I called you all old :P ).

I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who was educated in the Ontario education system.

Simply put: People aren't exposed to it. In school we spend very little time on WWI (I think in my grade 10 history class, it was 3 days.. maybe a week). 99% of people simply think of WWI as trench warfare and nothing else. If you asked any Canadian to name a famous ace, you might get 'Billy Bishop'. You'd almost never get Barker, and if you mentioned Collishaw people would give you a blank stare. None of these people are ever mentioned in the education system, ever. WWI air war is never mentioned, anywhere. The horrendous casualties of RFC training program, and things like Bloody April are never mentioned, anywhere. It's simply not taught.

So what about after highschool?

People still aren't exposed to it. In the movies there's very little about WWI, and even less about WWI air war. And lets face it.. most movies we see on this side of the pond are made for a US-centric audience, and the US didn't have a huge role in WWI compared to well... pretty much anyone else. People aren't exposed to it. Now WWII movies? Those are still in the public conscious. The USA had a massive role in multiple theaters. The USA was the heroes.. people like that. Hollywood producers like that. People see WWII.

So how about real life? Go to an airshow.. how many kites do you see? How many WWII warbirds do you see? I'm willing to bet the ratio is 10:1. Walk around Legions and museums now and you can still find some WWII vets to talk to. Heck, I have this very fond memory of back when I was at flight school in Air Cadets spending a few hours chatting with an Me-109 pilot. I've never met a WWI veteran. Neither has anyone I know. People aren't exposed to it.

Finally, Ares doesn't market this game worth a crap. People aren't exposed to it. Could you imagine a 1:1 scale cardboard standee of Barker or Fonck or Rickenbacker in a hobby shop as part of a display with a large placard detailing their exploits next to a small shelf of these colourful little kites? I would bet real money that would get people interested real quick.

But people aren't exposed to it. It's not that they don't care. They just don't know any better. I can't help myself that every time I play this game with my friends I end up giving them a little history lesson on the planes and/or pilots.. they're always interested but just had zero idea about it (or they pretend to be interested because they know it's the only way I'll eventually shut up about it...).

You have to remember that people like us, who love this kind of history and actively seek it out, are not the majority of gamers, let alone the majority of the population. And I bet a lot of us got into WoG because of the historical context first, quality of the game second. I actually did a speech in school on the Red Baron. I'm weird like that :/.

Now X-Wing? Holy crap, FFG plasters X-Wing adverts everywhere and Disney plasters Star Wars on every single product they can from toys to oranges (no joke -they did that).

Get a hit WWI aviation movie (not that absolute crap that was Fly Boys) and do a product tie-in with WoF, and you'll see a massive uptick in interest for this game.

Otherwise.. people aren't exposed to it.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Nailed it Cody. I teach players a bit of history every time we get planes on the table, and as you say these are gamers who already have an interest.

When the movie ‘Hurricane’ comes out I am going to run a Wings of Glory WW2 table at the local cinema to promote the game and encourage some participation by those waiting to see it or fresh from the screening. With some product on hand to sell and wingsofwar.org leaflets I hope we can get a few more regulars to our local shops/clubs and this community.

It would be nice if Ares could put together some promo material linked to the film (hint, hint).

[milcoll73]

"and the US didn't have a huge role in WWI compared to well... pretty much anyone else." thats something of a myth. yeah the usa had a small (but significant) part of combat but it had a huge role on the material and economic efforts and an incalculable effect on morale, and strategy of both sides. but, as you say, its not touched on in the education system. you have to delve deep tp learn such things.

[kalnaren]

"and the US didn't have a huge role in WWI compared to well... pretty much anyone else." thats something of a myth. yeah the usa had a small (but significant) part of combat but it had a huge role on the material and economic efforts and an incalculable effect on morale, and strategy of both sides. but, as you say, its not touched on in the education system. you have to delve deep tp learn such things.

Sorry, that probably came across more dismissive than I meant it to.

Perhaps a better way to put it is that the US contribution to WWI is much harder to easily quantify when taken as a snapshot of everything that was going on at the time. It's much easier to create a semi-ambiguous historical fiction based on a snapshot of events the Brits or French were involved in, because you can draw on the entire war and even better, what little of the war people might actually be familiar with.

The USA was just so much more involved in WWII that you can pick almost any major event of the war (that people are far more familiar with) and chances are there will be some type of USA connection that will be familiar to the general populace. This is, of course, much more agreeable to Hollywood studios that are dumping major moola into movies.

Look at it this way..

In WWI, "everybody knows" the Germans flew red tripes. "Everybody knows" the "good guys" flew Camels.

What the heck is a SPAD? What's a "Newport"? Isn't that where the USA builds ships???

In WWII, "everybody knows" the Brits flew Spitfires. "Everybody knows" the Germans flew Messerschmitts. "Everybody knows" Americans flew P-51s (and Corsairs). Pick a year, pick a context, boom. Done. Easier to connect with people.

[Bobsalt]

Nice one Dave. Spockhen Sie Deutsch.
Rob.

Spockhen sie Deutsch? Really?

I'm not sure how to even respond to that. But it more than deserves the rep I just sent to you. Well done sir!

[Bobsalt]

"because I bought a used collection from someone a couple of weeks after Origins. " this seems to be a theme with you lol!!!

Well, the only way I'm ever going to see some of the older models is via the used route. And buying collections seems to be both the easiest and cheapest way (in the long run) to build a collection.

The down side is that I've done this 4 times now, which means 4 guys who no longer play the game.

[milcoll73]

Sorry, that probably came across more dismissive than I meant it to.

Perhaps a better way to put it is that the US contribution to WWI is much harder to easily quantify when taken as a snapshot of everything that was going on at the time. It's much easier to create a semi-ambiguous historical fiction based on a snapshot of events the Brits or French were involved in, because you can draw on the entire war and even better, what little of the war people might actually be familiar with.

The USA was just so much more involved in WWII that you can pick almost any major event of the war (that people are far more familiar with) and chances are there will be some type of USA connection that will be familiar to the general populace. This is, of course, much more agreeable to Hollywood studios that are dumping major moola into movies.

Look at it this way..

In WWI, "everybody knows" the Germans flew red tripes. "Everybody knows" the "good guys" flew Camels.

What the heck is a SPAD? What's a "Newport"? Isn't that where the USA builds ships???

In WWII, "everybody knows" the Brits flew Spitfires. "Everybody knows" the Germans flew Messerschmitts. "Everybody knows" Americans flew P-51s (and Corsairs). Pick a year, pick a context, boom. Done. Easier to connect with people.

no worries, im actually pretty used to that as its the general prevailing opinion. cant fault people for things theyve never been taught.

"The USA was just so much more involved in WWII " very true. the usas involvement in ww1 pales in comparison to its involvement in ww2. and, as you say its so much more dealt with historically and in popular culture (too much some would say).

all very true.

[milcoll73]

Spockhen sie Deutsch? Really?

I'm not sure how to even respond to that. But it more than deserves the rep I just sent to you. Well done sir!

at this point it would be highly illogical to not deutchland uber alles, uber alles im den welt.

[milcoll73]

Well, the only way I'm ever going to see some of the older models is via the used route. And buying collections seems to be both the easiest and cheapest way (in the long run) to build a collection.

The down side is that I've done this 4 times now, which means 4 guys who no longer play the game.

and OH BOY have you ever!!!!(i guess ill have to figure out a way to hang out with you after origins so i can get some of the overflow minis lol)

yes, that thought always crosses my mind as well. always makes me wonder why theyre parting with such fine collections. i find it a bit melancholy.

[milcoll73]

Thanks for your summation Dave.

We do actually have appointed members who are continually in touch with Ares as advisors, both here and on the Anchorage.
We all suffer the same frustration about the supply of product and those of us who do the shows also get it direct from the punters.
We have attempted to survey the requirements of the membership, and inevitably get as many answers as there are replies.
The only way to deal this is to cut out all the fluff and go for one main requirement. ie one essential missing aircraft, or the need for starter sets to be readily obtainable, not a load of wishful thinking about the impossibility of some little known aircraft which is just not going to be profitable.That approach will get us nowhere. Bombarding Ares with a plethora of disparate requirements will bear no fruit. We need to decide what we all agree upon first and then submit our request with the backing of the whole Drome.
Rob.

perhaps a thread could be started for this purpose.

[David Manley]

IMHO the "essential requirement" is starter SETS ALWAYS available. Pick 2 pairs for WW1, two for WW2 (Camel vs Dr1, SE5a vs D.VII, Spitfire vs Bf109, Zero vs Wildcat maybe) and make sure they are always readily available. Cycle through other models, vary the schemes in the starter sets to give old hands a reason to buy them too. But starter sets is what will get us new players - and it is quite depressing running parti games at events, getting newbies enthusiastic but them not then being able to actually get started in the game

[Flying Officer Kyte]

A lot of truth in this Cody. Even here in the U.K. apart from the odd bit of news and documentaries because it is 100 years ago we have seen very little WWI material. As you may have seen we do try to promote the game at many shows throughout the country, but as you quite rightly say and as I have said previously, we are a niche within a niche, within a niche market in gaming terms. Honestly we have done well to get as many different aircraft models as we have. Neither Airfix nor Revel ever managed anything like it in all the years that they have been going.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that we do run out of basic aircraft types and Rules box sets on a regular basis and this is the other main factor in failing to grow our hobby successfully.
I will look into the cost of a cardboard cutout and display boards for our future shows. After all we used to do this sort of thing at ordinary wargames shows back in the seventies.
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

perhaps a thread could be started for this purpose.

Already tried it Phil. it always degenerates into a general free for all on what each members pet aircraft is and even when we tried to set just a few options, this happened. Then the usual moan about like what is going on here evolves from it.
However, we can try again if anyone has a way of keeping it on the straight and narrow.
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

IMHO the "essential requirement" is starter SETS ALWAYS available. Pick 2 pairs for WW1, two for WW2 (Camel vs Dr1, SE5a vs D.VII, Spitfire vs Bf109, Zero vs Wildcat maybe) and make sure they are always readily available. Cycle through other models, vary the schemes in the starter sets to give old hands a reason to buy them too. But starter sets is what will get us new players - and it is quite depressing running parti games at events, getting newbies enthusiastic but them not then being able to actually get started in the game

Totally agree Dave, and I bey you have said as much to Robert!
Rob.

[mrinku]

Australian kids DO get a large dollop of WW1 history thanks to our near-fetishisation of Gallipoli and ANZAC. But still not a whiff of the air war or the very prominent part our airmen played.

Even the Palestine campaign is largely boiled down to the Light Horse charge at Beersheba.

Gallipoli. France. Beersheeba. That's pretty much it, aside from what extra Western Front details might be taught. I'm pretty well informed as far as general history goes, yet even I was unaware of the Australian Flying Corps until this year, and assumed our pilots were just flying with the RFC and RNAS.

[Boney10]

Unfortunately education is a sign of the times, when my boys were at school,
I thought .i would be able to assist greatly with history, the only time I helped was to make A ww1 trench section, with fire step, barbed wire and bumker and sap, from papier mache, history master promptly lost this work, then said it was not needed as they gone passed WW1, and were onto Churchill we will fight them on the beaches, the battle of britain was condensed to an air battle lasting a couple of months over southern england although they did get an outing to Filton airfiled, I live in Bristol, I dispared.

[The Young Guard]

Education is a different story, I can only comment on primary as that's my field and as an amateur historian, I despair about the lack of content. Officially, the curriculum for Primary in the UK only goes to 1066, secondary pick up the rest later on. You can technically get around that by doing key points in British history but not all schools are brave enough to do it.

Secondly, most schools focus on Maths and Literacy because that is where the schools get judged so topics like history, get left to little more than a poorly created worksheet. There is little money for school trips from schools and living in the Somerset area, the Fleet Arm museum was deemed too expensive even though the class was doing WW2 (same for Bovington). I'm afraid unless you have a good teacher who is prepared to imurse children in subjects like history, it has become very stale, at least in the UK.

There is the age-old argument that wargaming is dying because young people aren't interested but I think that is only partially true. My son, for example, is only 5. He knows who Manfred and Lothar Von Richthofen are (though we still don't have Lother's planes) he can tell all the planes by nationality by looking at the roundels (though gets stumped by the Austrians) and he knows Fokker Dr1 and DVII and has great delight shouting out Fokker. However, the boy did not have a choice as history is my love and was my fathers. I think there are a wealth of young people out there who a keen to game but just don't know how to get into it. Whatever people may say about Games Workshop, they did a service of getting a generation of young people into gaming, albeit aggressively.

The other argument against young people is that computer games give children instant feedback. Why collect, and possibly paint, aircraft when you can load a flight sim and have it all out in front of you? But, there does seem to be a shift with people ditching computers in favour of tangible items such as board games. It's more social, it gives a greater experience and dare say it, it's safe. I hear lots of concerns from parents in regards to who their children speak to via online gaming. Wings of glory issue might be that for younger gamers the price is slightly high (though arguably no more than GW) Tripods, in my mind, is a good idea to get new people involved. I'm not sure about Battlestar as always thought that was a poor relation to Star Wars and Trek.

I would be interested to know from the chaps who put on games at Thornbury, how many people playing the participation games are younger people?


Finally, it has been said already, Ares will only sell what will sell. I understand that their limited print run means that things seem to sell well but I wonder how much profit Ares makes? Small margin possibly? There are all planes that we would love to see and we could all probably justify why they should be included but unless Ares can justify it, why would they sell it? The same issue is evident for those people who play Star Wars Armada which seems to have stopped producing any new models.

What would be better than Kickstarter would be a model like the GMT p500 where people pledge an amount. I think it would involve some organisation but you could have the system similar to Osprey where a list of planes is drawn up, people vote for which one they would like to be made. Then the top 4 are placed on the 500 club and people pledge to buy in advance.

[kalnaren]

no worries, im actually pretty used to that as its the general prevailing opinion. cant fault people for things theyve never been taught.

If it makes you feel any better, that's generally what happens with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and every other member of the Commonwealth for WWII. We're all "British" lol.

[OldGuy59]

I get the blank stare from people when I'm in Nanaimo, hosting demos of WGF, and say: "And this is Collishaw's Triplane, and you just have to have him on the table, if you are playing in his home town."

That leads into a quick history lesson, about a local personality that almost nobody knows about. How much that works for drawing people into the game? I need a Duel Pack with Raymond Collishaw's Triplane and Karl Allmenröder's Albatros D.III (actually any of Jasta 11 pilots of May-June 1917). Perhaps too local of a set?

[Shadowcat]

Truth be told here in the states things have changed in history class a lot since we were kids. Most of us older types learned Civ war/WWI/WWII/ Korea in history class. But since we got out there has been Viet Nam, 2 gulf wars. and 20 years of middle east bush wars. What was considered history and current when we were kids is ancient history to the new crop. There are more current wars for them to study. No excuse, just a fact. We knew and could talk to WWII vets as kids...most are gone now for the current generations. But they have Viet Nam vets and gulf war vets they can talk to. I guess what I am saying is it boils down to exposure. They no longer have the same sources of info we had so key off what they do have access to.

[ReducedAirFact]

Ironically, no one has done more to popularize WWI air combat than Charles Schultz.

As for models, I think in a few¹ years we will have full-color 3D printed models available. That will solve the inventory and production-run problems that we're currently suffering through, although we still need a solution for plane cards and maneuver decks. Hopefully Ares can get on board and have a line of planes always available via the 3D printers, so you can get an S.E.5a in your favorite paint scheme any time you want one.

¹ = don't ask me to define "few" or guess whether it will be too late.

[Mike George]

I love WW1 air war, and will keep coming back to this sit for updates but we need more input of aircraft, cards, pilots, and so on. I have been drifting toward board games this last year. My heart feels heavy.

[Ken at Sunrise]

Seeing the announcement of X-Wing Miniatures v.2 got me thinking about the future of WGF. For me it has stagnated and the slow frequency of reprints and new releases has contributed to me and my fellow group of gamers no longer playing it (im more a collector now). I know some of you are WGF diehards and will keep going forever, but for those of us that aren't, what are your thoughts on how interest in this game can be re-vitalised?

The impending Tripods and Triplanes and the announcement of the Battlestar Galactica game (not to mention the very sluggish WGS development) suggests that Ares have perhaps already seen the writing on the wall for WGF/WGS.

All points of view welcome

Short answer:

I prefer buying games complete and not bothering with endless releases.

Long answer:

After a few games that had endless releases I'm burned out on almost any game like that. I much prefer buying and playing the game without constant updates, new rules, new mechanics, new things, etc. I will buy and expansion or so if I like the game, but the whole collection is not a big turn off for me. Not having decent availability of WWI planes almost kept me out. But I bit the bullet and opened the wallet to eBay sellers. This will not happen again for any game; if it isn't available there's a lot of great games out there. After the next wave I hope to have just about all of the planes I need.

I got into Wings of Glory because I thought I could get the planes I needed and would stop there. Of course, as predicted, I got quite a few more than I planned. But I imposed a self limiting storage requirement on myself. Once the storage is full I'm stopping.

As for Tripods, that seems like a way to add a bit of variety without never ending releases. Either way I think I will have plenty. The only think I think it is lacking is line of site cannons. I few of those in the rules would be an awesome touch to the game.

As for BSG, I'm debating on that. It looks nice since there should be a limited number of ships available; so I'll have to see when it is announced.

Finally between Ares limited support of their existing lines and them, to my knowledge, not addressing if they will ever complete their Wings of Glory Giants Kickstarter has me being very shy of getting involved in these types of games.

Short answer:

I prefer buying games complete the first time; give a good selection of units, a good set of rules and I can play the game for years. If the game is solid I don't need a constant release of new toys to keep my interest.

[flash]

I knew the square root of FA about WW1 and little about the aeroplanes involved when I started playing this game and probably know next to nothing now.
I am a war gamer - I like to shoot stuff and blow sh1t up or at least imagine I can.
When I first saw Famous aces it did nothing for me - "Hmm, card game, not for me"
When I first saw the minis in action I was "WOW - I've gotta get into that" and I think that applies to many that come and game with us at the shows.
I guess what I'm saying is - yes it's history but you don't need to know much about it to get into this and other games. You learn that as you go along.
That's part of the fun of it for me. You edjumicate yourself as a good buddy told me the other day.

[Ken at Sunrise]

People often cite the excuse that Ares is only a small company and cannot produce to this level of demand - i know this is true but business is business and if another competitor designs its own version of a ww1 airwar game thats just as good and can produce new product much more frequently, they may leave Ares behind. I hope this dosent happen.

There are several very small companies with only a few people making successful Kickstarter games. I don't know if I agree that being small is the issue when it comes to funding. Maybe their just not that interested in Wings of Glory. Kistarter campaigns have very high profit margins even after KickStarter takes their cut.

Many of the planes I have I won't even let but a few touch them.

Only let people who knows how to handle them with care.

If some get broken I can't replace them.

My son wanted to take them to a bi-weekly gaming convention we go to.

I had to tell him no, what if they break them.

This concerns me a lot. Getting out the game to introduce it to new players could mean never having those planes again.

Don't get me wrong Ken. You are not wrong. It's just that we have been saying the same things even when it was Wings of War. I simply think that the thin end of the wedge might be better than a large blunt instrument in this case. Probably not but we have tried just about every other approach. Maybe they just ain't in a financial position to comply.
Rob.

I'd say see my above comment. Kickstarter is prefunded manufacturing with very high profit margins if don't correctly. There's something else going on and it may be their interest or priority with other projects. They have yet to complete their Giants Kickstarter and how many years ago was that? When was the last time they even said anything about it. Some may say that's not an issue, but anytime a manufacture delivers less than promised for what you paid while continuing to come out with new Kickstarters without even commenting on it should be a concern no matter how 'trivial'.

[mrinku]

Thing is, WoG *is* basically a complete game. From Ares' point of view they just have to keep the core rule sets in print and release some new planes or re-release old ones each year.

I'm just grateful they haven't bought into the regular "new rules edition" marketing model that drives GW's cash cows.

[milcoll73]

Already tried it Phil. it always degenerates into a general free for all on what each members pet aircraft is and even when we tried to set just a few options, this happened. Then the usual moan about like what is going on here evolves from it.
However, we can try again if anyone has a way of keeping it on the straight and narrow.
Rob.

well, at least were consistent.

maybe limit it to one post each and no discussion. then have a poll with each suggestion.

[milcoll73]

If it makes you feel any better, that's generally what happens with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and every other member of the Commonwealth for WWII. We're all "British" lol.

sadly very true. most us youngsters cant even identify our gallant allies during ww2 let alone ww1.

[milcoll73]

Ironically, no one has done more to popularize WWI air combat than Charles Schultz.

As for models, I think in a few¹ years we will have full-color 3D printed models available. That will solve the inventory and production-run problems that we're currently suffering through, although we still need a solution for plane cards and maneuver decks. Hopefully Ares can get on board and have a line of planes always available via the 3D printers, so you can get an S.E.5a in your favorite paint scheme any time you want one.

¹ = don't ask me to define "few" or guess whether it will be too late.

that would be awesome!!! ares would have to start producing maneuver decks and a/c cards to meet the demand. i would think this would actually increase their profit margin as miniature production costs would be borne by the end user not them.

[milcoll73]

I love WW1 air war, and will keep coming back to this sit for updates but we need more input of aircraft, cards, pilots, and so on. I have been drifting toward board games this last year. My heart feels heavy.

STAY THE COURSE!!!

[milcoll73]

Short answer:

I prefer buying games complete and not bothering with endless releases.

Long answer:

After a few games that had endless releases I'm burned out on almost any game like that. I much prefer buying and playing the game without constant updates, new rules, new mechanics, new things, etc. I will buy and expansion or so if I like the game, but the whole collection is not a big turn off for me. Not having decent availability of WWI planes almost kept me out. But I bit the bullet and opened the wallet to eBay sellers. This will not happen again for any game; if it isn't available there's a lot of great games out there. After the next wave I hope to have just about all of the planes I need.

I got into Wings of Glory because I thought I could get the planes I needed and would stop there. Of course, as predicted, I got quite a few more than I planned. But I imposed a self limiting storage requirement on myself. Once the storage is full I'm stopping.

As for Tripods, that seems like a way to add a bit of variety without never ending releases. Either way I think I will have plenty. The only think I think it is lacking is line of site cannons. I few of those in the rules would be an awesome touch to the game.

As for BSG, I'm debating on that. It looks nice since there should be a limited number of ships available; so I'll have to see when it is announced.

Finally between Ares limited support of their existing lines and them, to my knowledge, not addressing if they will ever complete their Wings of Glory Giants Kickstarter has me being very shy of getting involved in these types of games.

Short answer:

I prefer buying games complete the first time; give a good selection of units, a good set of rules and I can play the game for years. If the game is solid I don't need a constant release of new toys to keep my interest.

well, with the success of such games as settlers of catan (though its future is unclear), munchkin, magic the gathering, x-wing, etc most game companies goal seems to be get a successful game and ride and endless train of expansions for it. that just seems to be the current business model of most game companies today.

[milcoll73]

Ares' slow production towards the Wings of Glory has put a real damper on me.

Too many tangent projects are taking priority.

Many of the planes I have I won't even let but a few touch them.

Only let people who knows how to handle them with care.

If some get broken I can't replace them.

My son wanted to take them to a bi-weekly gaming convention we go to.

I had to tell him no, what if they break them.

i fully understand this as i fairly recently had a mishap where one of the stores regulars tipped over a foam tray of 4 of my fokker dVIIs including udets, scheafers, and 2 of my repaints. all sustained damage. it was mostly repairable but, of course, they bear "scars"of their ordeal. i introduced the "dalan protocal" (the boys name) in that, even if i have minis from that box out in play, i still put all trays back in and close it up, at least if hes present.

[Stumptonian]

I knew the square root of FA about WW1 and little about the aeroplanes involved when I started playing this game and probably know next to nothing now.
I am a war gamer - I like to shoot stuff and blow sh1t up or at least imagine I can.
When I first saw Famous aces it did nothing for me - "Hmm, card game, not for me"
When I first saw the minis in action I was "WOW - I've gotta get into that" and I think that applies to many that come and game with us at the shows.
I guess what I'm saying is - yes it's history but you don't need to know much about it to get into this and other games. You learn that as you go along.
That's part of the fun of it for me. You edjumicate yourself as a good buddy told me the other day.

Pretty much sums things up, Dave, although I disagree strongly with

probably know next to nothing now

Like it or not, you are a fountain of information on WWI aircraft, sir.


I've been tossing around thoughts that appear in this thread and may have changed my tune somewhat since my post of a few days ago.

I think (as others have stated) Ares need to focus on the core aircraft and not try to fulfill all of our wildest dreams.
(I know, sacrilege!)

Probably 8 fighters each for WGF and WGS and a couple of two-seaters on each side (bombers for WGS) would probably cover it.
Dual packs with cards and rules and rulers and the basic counters would keep the game going. In stock. All the time.
In addition, release some campaign packs like the ones Carl posted last year to add spice every year or two.

We diehards will always find the lesser known models on Shapeways or AIM

They already have two Dual packs with iconic aircraft for WGF.
Add one with SE.5a vs Fokker D.VII and one with Fokker E.III vs DH.2

They have the Battle of Britain sets that seem to be doing well. Get the He.111 and Me.110 reissued.
Worry about new models down the road.

A Pacific set of Wildcats, Dauntless, Zeros and Vals (all already produced) would jump-start the forgotten theatre.
Or make those the Dual packs.

After all the members' hard work of displaying the Ares Wings of Glory at conventions and shows, let the punters have something to buy!

I think that would equate to sh*t or get off the pot.
If that doesn't revive the line then so be it and we will forever wail about what could have been, but there at least was an attempt, and Ares can move on.

[/SOAPBOX]

[Xen]

I am no business guru but I would like to see WoG WWI and WWII products on sals at Museums such as the Australian War Memorial or the Museum of Flight. Millions of visitors each year would undoubtably snap up those.

Hey Bax, ill get working on that Its been on my list to contact the Point Cook museum in Victoria but haven't had a chance yet. On my list of things to do!

[Xen]

Wow. Ok hold my drink, find me a soap box, here comes a dose of optimism, fuelled by first hand experience wholesaling and retailing Wings of Glory, FROM A COUNTRY the other side of the globe from the main warehousing facility....


Guys... The game is stronger today than it ever has been. With ANY new product, you get a wave of hype that peaks. Its a bubble. THEN you get the crash. The doom and gloom, the fear. THEN the REAL value, the REAL market reveals itself.

Sure, lots of board game stores won't stock it any more due to all the problems listed above. But its a niche game! It really is an extremely niche game. The fact that we are getting multiple releases per year is incredible. And, I can guarantee you if the wholesaler makes personal connections with the retailers, you can often convince them to take a core set or 3 to have on the shelves. I've never had a retailer not come back for at least a few additional items be it some squadron packs or more starter sets. Its not a huge seller, but it DOES tick over.

Naturally, I am biased as I play/love the game myself. So, I think the real problem here is the impact of globalisation on retail. NOT how frequently Ares is releasing items.

Fact 1.
Miniature Market and at least 2 other USA online stores have been selling Wings of Glory for a 30% discount of the MSRP for a very long time now.
please take a step back and reflect on this fact for a moment.

Fact 2. The major warehouse for all Wings of Glory stock, is in USA.
How much do you think it costs Miniature Market and other US online stores to get Wings shipped to them?
$0. Nothing. Nada. Zip. No shipping costs over $300 in orders (I work with this warehouse myself) No customs charges or import brokerage fee's. Nothing.

Fact 3. Every single other market for this game around the world, then has to compete. In Australia, I pay shipping from USA to here. I pay 10% GST plus 5% duties. (shipping cost included in the valuation) I also pay brokers fee's, and a final trucking charge from the port to my door. My starting price, before I pay my own personal business costs, is therefore, at a massive disadvantage to any USA store. And this is true for every single UK/Euro/Asian/South American etc wholesaler.

You can see how helpful it would be if stores stuck to the MSRP!!! If Miniature Market and others sold their items at the recommended price, there would be a margin left for other countries around the world.

Guys Ares is not the problem. We buy at the lowest possible price. And this is not a criticism, I used to do the same thing when i first got into the game. No judgement here. Just perspective!

When I wholesale to board game stores in Australia, I make a very small margin on every large item (starter sets, Staakens, 0400's, Mats, etc) and I make a slightly larger margin on the planes themselves. Shipping is charged on volume not weight, so large items cost me a lot to import. But the reason I price it this way, is to ensure the Aussie retailers have a chance to compete with the international market. And it works.

But I'm a die hard fan of the game, most wholesalers won't choose to do this. Again, wouldn’t it be nice if Miniature Market and the other stores stuck to MSRP.

Now despite all this, Ares has continued to create new content for us, gaps between releases are a real problem, but I see improvement. Since the Battle of Britain starter set, Everything needed to get into the game has been in stock at all times If I needed to buy more. Maps, Starters, Squadron packs, Duel Packs, Rules & Accessories packs, and now Sails of Glory is fully supported again as well.

I SEE IMPROVEMENT!!!

lets celebrate this!!!

And I think the delay of the promised WW2 release including the Corsair was a critical and correct strategic decision that allowed Ares to achieve this. They delayed one release by a lot, and prioritised the starter content.

The bombers are desperately needed, not denying that. The white Heinkels are now also sold out.

So instead of focussing on the early Pacific Theatre when we promote the game out at club meets, Trev and I (from Trev's Workshop and on this forum) having been promoting stuff that IS easily available. Dambuster raids, and B17's being attacked by ME109K's and escorted by P-47's. All these items are readily available from Ares for wholesalers to obtain. When the BOB bombers come around, of course we will be playing those... (I have a stack of old Wings of War Martlets still in stock, I'm hoping to attack some JU-88's with these over the Atlantic in addition to BOB scenarios )


SO. A little more of the industry side of things. Before I became the Aussie wholesaler, I was actually trying to pressure the 2 large board game distributors to take the line on. But they didn't. They said they could not make the margins work, they would have to charge too much for it to be worthwhile, ie, not be able to assist retailers to compete with the US online High volume low margin stores.

But no retailers in Australia would have been aware of this. When they try to get stock, they would have been told by wholesalers 'we don't carry it' and then the customer would be told 'we can't get it for you' leading to the sentiment you find in the comments above.

I think a lot of board game stores would have new customers coming in saying, 'we played at XYZ CON and want to buy, can you get me some zero's or wildcats?'
They are literally asking for something that was released by a different company over 8 years ago. Rather than saying 'no, I can't get it' we need to train retailers to understand that this game is manufactured in single runs. There is enough produced to stay in stock for 24 months minimum (in my observation)

I invite retailers to embrace the narrative of 'this is a niche high quality product. you have a window of approx 24 months to buy new releases other than starter sets. (preorder things with us if you like!) Currently Ares is focussing on the Battle of Britain, and late war European and Pacific heavy raids so thats the best way to get involved. Its a long term game though thats been around for a decade now, so the early pacific stuff is certain to get its turn eventually'



I invite customers to also take on this narrative. To learn what IS in stock, and to encourage new gamers towards these items. Do it by supporting this era with your more public games. And when people get really hooked, share you own personal collection with them when you play. To be honest, when me and Trev play publicly, its almost always with our personal collections. We will be at PAX Melbourne this October with our personal kit as well But we don't need to bring out our rarest stuff as the features at these. Its best to save that stuff for the games in people's homes. (which helps solve the problem mentioned earlier of fearing damage of valuable rare minis at public events)


It was written above:

In my travels for work I made a point of hitting every game store in all of the cities to which I traveled. The story was the same in each of them – either lack of interest in the game, or a complete inability to get adequate product to keep the shelves stocked.

What I found incredible were the comments in this thread that there was adequate stock on hand available to be ordered except for a few items, and that distribution wasn’t a problem.

It may have been me saying that there is adequate stock on hand. Because I KNOW what the US warehouses have. there IS adequate stock on hand. NOT for early pacific theatre, NOT for eastern front, NOT for Mediterranean, but in the context of this being a niche high quality product, there IS adequate stock to get started in the game, and play Battle of Britain or Late war European or Pacific heavy bomber scenarios. And, It was only 4-6 weeks ago the the Heinkel's completely disappeared from this US warehouse I keep mentioning. Just, they were white... not grey.

Ares has been listening, and has fixed the supply of Starter Sets and mats. Now, they need to fix the supply of BOB bombers, and we KNOW they are working on it!!!

Now its up to us to change the narrative away from a desire to have 10 years of warfare across multiple theatres permanently in stock towards a narrative that focusses on what IS in stock, and supports THOSE items publicly. Otherwise we will end up with sub par Blood Red Skies miniatures. Thats the only way to fill the gaps. Make a 2nd tier product. (I personally enjoy BRS but its not in the same league as wings!)

So lets send some customers into American board game stores asking for Starter sets, B17's and 109k's plus escorts,
Send them in asking for starter sets, Me110's spitfires 109s Hurricanes and Stukas.

Watch what happens when they contact their wholesalers and discover all that stock just sitting there waiting.

You can’t make a profit trying to sell something that doesn’t exist.

So lets promote what does exist, and embrace the reality that this is a niche high quality product that cannot do everything at once.

distributors are telling them that there is nothing available in the pipeline to send to them. Distributors are in business for the same reason that game stores are - to make a profit.

Current Pipeline = SE5's Pflaz D.III's Breguets Rumplers Camels Fokker DRI's Spad XIII's Albatros DVA's JU88's DO17's SM79's!!!??!! Blenheims more Nieuport 16's THE BALLOOOOOONS!!! and some crazy tripods, ALL FOR 2018 or early 2019 and maybe I shouldn't say this, but I also believe the wave of Halberstadt D.III's Morane Saulniers, DH2's and Eindeckers will be back with us within 12-18 months.

I think we're going to be ok guys.

Soap box has collapsed under me as I jumped up and down too much on it ...

[Xen]

[Xen]

Also here is an Exhaustive list of what WW2 items are and are not available with Ares right now. They also have their tournament value next to them due to another post I was making last night about this

Wings of Glory AVAILABLE

AVRO LANCASTER MK.I/MK.III 193
AVRO LANCASTER MK.III DAMBUSTERS 188
BOEING B–17F FLYING FORTRESS 375
BOEING B–17G FLYING FORTRESS 399
BRISTOL BEAUFIGHTER MK.IF 300
BRISTOL BEAUFIGHTER MK.VIF 319
DOUGLAS SBD–5 DAUNTLESS / A–24B BANSHEE 102
FIAT CR.42 102
GLOSTER GLADIATOR MK.I / MK.II 96
HAWKER HURRICANE MK.I 144
JUNKERS JU–87B STUKA 68
KAWASAKI KI–61–IB HIEN 144
KAWASAKI KI–61–I–KAID HIEN 297
MESSERSCHMITT BF.109 E–3 167
MESSERSCHMITT BF.109 K 280
MESSERSCHMITT BF.110C 234
NAKAJIMA KI–84 HAYATE 216
NORTH AMERICAN B–25C MITCHELL 169
REGGIANE RE.2001 FALCO II 125
REGGIANE RE.2001 CN FALCO II 207
REPUBLIC P–47D THUNDERBOLT 274
SUPERMARINE SPITFIRE MK.I 163
SUPERMARINE SPITFIRE MK.IX 229
YOKOSUKA D4 Y1 SUISEI 95
YOKOSUKA D4 Y3 SUISEI 101

Unavailable at Ares Games Wings of Glory

FOCKE WULF FW.190 D–9 / D–13 215
CURTISS P–40E / F WARHAWK 207
HEINKEL HE.111H 217
KAWASAKI KI–61–I–KAIC HIEN 207
NORTH AMERICAN B–25B MITCHELL 169
NORTH AMERICAN P–51D MUSTANG 209
REGGIANE RE.2001 GV FALCO II 125
YAKOVLEV YAK–1 125

Old Wings of War

HAWKER HURRICANE MK.IIB 207
MESSERSCHMITT BF.109 E–4 170
SUPERMARINE SPITFIRE MK.II 168
DEWOITINE D.520 134
AICHI D3A1 VAL 70
MITSUBISHI A6M2 REISEN 156
GRUMMAN F4F–3 WILDCAT / MARTLET III 137
GRUMMAN F4F–4 WILDCAT 200

[flash]

An informed opinion at last - Evan helped us !

[milcoll73]

i hope what you say is true evan. i really, really do.

" But its a niche game! It really is an extremely niche game" the thing is it doesnt have to be. its a really great game system with broad appeal. ive literally lost count the number of times ive had non historical, non miniatures and even non gamers express interest in the game. if only we had a game to provide them. i dont see the warehousing side of the business but i do work in a flgs. and multiple times now ive watched newbies interest wane in the game when theres nothing new to show them but plenty of other shiny baubles just on another shelf. its damn frustrating.


"I SEE IMPROVEMENT!!!" i hope so. i thought i was seeing improvement, but then i saw stock dry up with nothing to replace it. i was distributors clearance out there once extensive stock of wings of glory and not carry any more, or a much smaller selection. its disheartening.

"I invite customers to also take on this narrative. To learn what IS in stock" the problem with this is that historical game players want multiple eras not only whats in stock. hence my suggestions for 2 additional duel packs (fokker d7 v se5a, and dh2 v halberstadt d3) in rotating production to cover at least a bare minimum.

"And when people get really hooked, share you own personal collection with them when you play." oh i do. i certainly do. but my buddy who owns the store i work at pointed out that if casual players know they can rely on my minis they wont buy their own. and more than once ive seen looks of frustration in the eyes of more regular players when ive told them that this particular or that particular mini isnt currently available. where to find a happy medium

in any case whether i hear doom or gloom or buoyant optimism i will continue to plug away promoting the game i love at every turn. happy skies all!!!!

[Flying Officer Kyte]

well, at least were consistent.

maybe limit it to one post each and no discussion. then have a poll with each suggestion.

Would you like to give it a go Phil. We can at least see where the preferences lie.
Rob.

[kalnaren]

Wow. Ok hold my drink, find me a soap box, here comes a dose of optimism, fuelled by first hand experience wholesaling and retailing Wings of Glory, FROM A COUNTRY the other side of the globe from the main warehousing facility....


Guys... The game is stronger today than it ever has been. With ANY new product, you get a wave of hype that peaks. Its a bubble. THEN you get the crash. The doom and gloom, the fear. THEN the REAL value, the REAL market reveals itself.

Sure, lots of board game stores won't stock it any more due to all the problems listed above. But its a niche game! It really is an extremely niche game. The fact that we are getting multiple releases per year is incredible. And, I can guarantee you if the wholesaler makes personal connections with the retailers, you can often convince them to take a core set or 3 to have on the shelves. I've never had a retailer not come back for at least a few additional items be it some squadron packs or more starter sets. Its not a huge seller, but it DOES tick over.

Naturally, I am biased as I play/love the game myself. So, I think the real problem here is the impact of globalisation on retail. NOT how frequently Ares is releasing items.

Fact 1.
Miniature Market and at least 2 other USA online stores have been selling Wings of Glory for a 30% discount of the MSRP for a very long time now.
please take a step back and reflect on this fact for a moment.

Fact 2. The major warehouse for all Wings of Glory stock, is in USA.
How much do you think it costs Miniature Market and other US online stores to get Wings shipped to them?
$0. Nothing. Nada. Zip. No shipping costs over $300 in orders (I work with this warehouse myself) No customs charges or import brokerage fee's. Nothing.

Fact 3. Every single other market for this game around the world, then has to compete. In Australia, I pay shipping from USA to here. I pay 10% GST plus 5% duties. (shipping cost included in the valuation) I also pay brokers fee's, and a final trucking charge from the port to my door. My starting price, before I pay my own personal business costs, is therefore, at a massive disadvantage to any USA store. And this is true for every single UK/Euro/Asian/South American etc wholesaler.

You can see how helpful it would be if stores stuck to the MSRP!!! If Miniature Market and others sold their items at the recommended price, there would be a margin left for other countries around the world.

Guys Ares is not the problem. We buy at the lowest possible price. And this is not a criticism, I used to do the same thing when i first got into the game. No judgement here. Just perspective!

When I wholesale to board game stores in Australia, I make a very small margin on every large item (starter sets, Staakens, 0400's, Mats, etc) and I make a slightly larger margin on the planes themselves. Shipping is charged on volume not weight, so large items cost me a lot to import. But the reason I price it this way, is to ensure the Aussie retailers have a chance to compete with the international market. And it works.

But I'm a die hard fan of the game, most wholesalers won't choose to do this. Again, wouldn’t it be nice if Miniature Market and the other stores stuck to MSRP.

I'll readily admit my business experience is limited to a lemonade stand when I was 8, but what you say here doesn't really jive with what I've seen in Canuckistan from talking to people who run the FLGS.

I've been flat out told by one store they couldn't get the RAPs because of stock issues (same with the duel packs), and if they can't get those, there's zero point in stocking the game on their very limited shelf space. It took me over a month to track down an RAP when I got into WoG, and that I had to order from out of country. Ares does very little marketing for this game so nobody goes into a hobby shop looking for it, people who are interested see it on the shelf. They may ask about it and of course are told they need an RAP/DP... which they can't get. So they lose interest and go for something else. So inventory doesn't move, and the FLGS stops stocking it.

One of the bigger FLGS in Toronto used to have it on their shelf space beside Star Wars Armada, X-Wing, and both D&D and Star Trek attack wing games. With little exception, WoG was actually the cheapest of all those... but you know what? In 3 years I never once saw a WoG duel pack or RAP. You can 100% bet they never had stock issues on the Armada box set, X-Wing Starter Set, or Attack Wing starter sets.

I can't speak for how much inventory they moved but after I bought my initial collection I didn't go back there much for WoG stuff because they never had anything new in... because they could never move the old inventory.

There's two large stores in two of the biggest cities in Ontario that followed this exact narrative.

I think I mentioned before one reason I never got into SoG was because I literally could not get the starter pack, anywhere. Ships? Yes. The actual rules and stuff you need to play? Nope.

So sorry.. but as a consumer I just don't buy the MSRP argument. Availability of the RAP seems to have been what's killed this game in the hobby shops I frequent. In Canada we're used to being screwed six ways from Sunday on costs of just about everything, and ordering from the US for board game stuff here is more often than not a matter of availability than cost (it's often not any cheaper).

Now despite all this, Ares has continued to create new content for us, gaps between releases are a real problem, but I see improvement. Since the Battle of Britain starter set, Everything needed to get into the game has been in stock at all times If I needed to buy more. Maps, Starters, Squadron packs, Duel Packs, Rules & Accessories packs, and now Sails of Glory is fully supported again as well.

Great. Maybe we'll see an improvement again. I don't know. I'm not sure these stores will bother again with other product they can be sure aren't going to go on hiatus again.

SO. A little more of the industry side of things. Before I became the Aussie wholesaler, I was actually trying to pressure the 2 large board game distributors to take the line on. But they didn't. They said they could not make the margins work, they would have to charge too much for it to be worthwhile, ie, not be able to assist retailers to compete with the US online High volume low margin stores.

But no retailers in Australia would have been aware of this. When they try to get stock, they would have been told by wholesalers 'we don't carry it' and then the customer would be told 'we can't get it for you' leading to the sentiment you find in the comments above.

Certainly sounds like an issue in Australia. Like I said, up here, the problem was never "we can't get it" because of wholesalers (most of these guys bought from the USA anyway), it was "we can't get it for you" because it was literally not available, and thus, not worth the time for the retailer.

I don't know what it's like in Australia, but Canada's a pretty small country with a pretty small market compared to most other places in the western world. We have very few big retailers. Not being able to get product will cause our shops to drop it in a heartbeat.

I invite customers to also take on this narrative. To learn what IS in stock, and to encourage new gamers towards these items.

This is a fine narrative for dudes like us who are really interested and/or already into the game, but it's completely unreasonable for anyone looking to get into the game unless they a real history buff.

A customer looking to get into WoG is flat out not going to bother if a store tells them "well you have to learn when things are in stock". The immediate followup is "Well when will these be in stock?".

"I don't know."

Game over. They're just going to be "screw it" and go play X-Wing instead.

Ares has been listening, and has fixed the supply of Starter Sets and mats. Now, they need to fix the supply of BOB bombers, and we KNOW they are working on it!!!

I have noticed I can get mats now. That's good.

But I fear the damage has done, at least around here. I don't think any of the FLGS that purged their stock of WoG are going to bother re-stocking it. It's just not worth the risk to them. Ares really needs to step up their game and create a demand for their, er, game. They need to make it so people are actually going into hobby shops looking for this product, instead of just seeing it on the shelf in a back corner covered in dust and passively inquiring about it.

[mrinku]

Fact 3. Every single other market for this game around the world, then has to compete. In Australia, I pay shipping from USA to here. I pay 10% GST plus 5% duties. (shipping cost included in the valuation) I also pay brokers fee's, and a final trucking charge from the port to my door. My starting price, before I pay my own personal business costs, is therefore, at a massive disadvantage to any USA store. And this is true for every single UK/Euro/Asian/South American etc wholesaler.

And for me, as a customer outside of a major centre, I have to add internal Australian mail order costs on top of your retail! (Not especially onerous, but it adds up and erodes your ability to compete with other international sellers, especially those in the UK that correctly drop VAT for non-EU sales).