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Thread: WGF/WGS - The Future

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    Default WGF/WGS - The Future

    Seeing the announcement of X-Wing Miniatures v.2 got me thinking about the future of WGF. For me it has stagnated and the slow frequency of reprints and new releases has contributed to me and my fellow group of gamers no longer playing it (im more a collector now). I know some of you are WGF diehards and will keep going forever, but for those of us that aren't, what are your thoughts on how interest in this game can be re-vitalised?

    The impending Tripods and Triplanes and the announcement of the Battlestar Galactica game (not to mention the very sluggish WGS development) suggests that Ares have perhaps already seen the writing on the wall for WGF/WGS.

    All points of view welcome

  2. #2

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    I am no business guru but I would like to see WoG WWI and WWII products on sals at Museums such as the Australian War Memorial or the Museum of Flight. Millions of visitors each year would undoubtably snap up those.

  3. #3

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    Yeah, the slow production process is a drag. However, I look at Tripods (not so much BSG) as a means of brining more players into the Wings of Glory realm, not a sign of the demise of the game. I don't see them as exclusive, but inclusive.

    At my latest convention appearance, I used the Tripods hook to reel in players that may never have looked at a historical game, and as the game progressed, expounded on the virtues of the WWI game. If nothing else, if the game stays in a separate camp, it will create demand for more WWI planes, and perhaps make the production process more profitable, yielding a better production schedule.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

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    Been thinking on it a while..

    Lack of any support with new product and reasonable inventories of previous releases are killing it. Hobby shops either can not get it, or there is not enough in play at one time to make a decent display.

    WWI is fine but just needs more reliable plane supplies. Issue is, the requirement of pre painted planes. You can not play without them and they are difficult for some to find. Need to either go back to maneuver deck and card packs to encourage growth, or pick a time frame and do a campaign box with a constant supply of the proper planes like the BoB set for WWII. Planes in the stores is the key, without them it is dead in the water.

    WWII has other issues. Most of the iconic planes are long out of print and there has been NO new planes out in over a year. Again lack of planes or even the ability to use others due to lack of maneuver decks is a death blow. The Squadron packs were a very good idea but limited HE111's and no new German bombers to replace them sort of defeat the purpose of a BoB game. It requires bombers escorted by fighters as a key point in games. Otherwise it is just fighter vs fighter and heck with the timeline. Again, lack of proper airframes in stores at any time are hurting badly. The Grognards like us can make due or scrounge around but they miss the whole impulse shopping thing. Does no good to run a demo game when new players can not get a box set or extra planes even if they wanted. Again airframes are the sticking point here.

    T and T is a great idea and has potential but if planes and walkers dry up quickly it is a dead concept as you will either have the KS or not be able to find anything.

    I know the company is looking at a Pressganger/Sergent type of program but without stock for the stores to move it is wasted effort.

    Only suggestion I can give is to go back to the old WoW style blister packs with plane cards and maneuver decks ( cheap and fast to produce and keep in stock). You can still do the nice painted models but also produce a never ending supply of the Squadron concept of airframes so there is always something avalible to buy or for stores to stock. China is becoming more and more unreliable as a supplier and their quality has seriously fallen off from the early plane releases. Maybe getting plane/maneuver decks printed somewhere else as life support for the whole game while you fix/replace your China sources is the key. Also trash the whole rules/damage deck/ playing piece box concept and go back to planes in the box or at least some cards with maneuver decks. If a store just orders rules box sets and someone buys it without being able to play that kills a new players incentive before they even get started.

    Getting into BSG is great but you are already stretched too thin right now. Fix the issues with what we have before following down the same trail with yet another game that will not be properly supported.

    Not trying to trash anyone, just trying to be honest.
    Last edited by Shadowcat; 07-04-2018 at 20:43.

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    im truly hoping that T&T and BSG generate interest for both wgf and wgs!!!! i really do.

    at origins there didnt seem to be lack of interest in wings as about 35-40% of the players were newer if not 1st time players (some of which were seen leaving ares booth with armloads of minis!!!). not to mention the apparent interest as evidenced by the prices commanded for certain out of print minis on the secondary markets.

    the main problem, it would seem to me, to be lack of new product and promotion. i have too many times seen interested players move on to other games for lack of novel product. like it or not that seems to be the current dichotomy of the gaming industry. dazzle the players with many shiny new baubles.

    my solution for wgf (with something similar for wgs) are first, to have at least 4 duel packs in rotating production at frequent intervals if not at all times. 2 would be the 2 that we already know. the 3rd would be an early war one with an airco dh2 vs a halberstadt DIII and (of course) a B damage deck. 4th would be the fokker DVII vs the se5a. this would cover most eras of the war and have quite a few iconic aircraft available frequently. second, would be to promote gameplay with prizes for scenarios (as opposed to all out organized play) much like what occurs at large conventions but through as many local games clubs an flgs as possible.

    for wgs would be something similar to the bob set but more akin to wgf duel packs so as not to require repurchase of the rule set with each new supplement. each set would include everything attendant to play the minis on the board NOT already included in the bob set (ie rules, damage chits, etc). also i would promote gameplay as i detailed under wgf.

    for both then could be special packs funded through kickstarter as the giants were.

  7. #7

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    The way things stand at the moment WoG will struggle to grow beyond its loyal followers due to the availability of planes.
    I agree that there should be more duel packs (i'd go Fokker DVII v Sopwith Snipe for late war and DH2 v Halberstadt DIII for early war).
    The way into the game should be two options, 1) A box set similar to BoB and the old WoW ones, 2) The choice of the duel sets including the two above.
    If Ares sold the "B" damage deck in a blister it would sell like hot cakes.
    Wishful thinking I feel for any of the above. The game seems destined to remain hard to find.
    There seems to be a huge divide between the players who have found and hoarded huge collections, and those who are new to the game and simply cannot find planes anywhere.
    The second hand market is often grossly overpriced on ebay due to the knowledge of availability, and those planes that are put on at cheaper prices draw frantic bidding and go for often daft prices.
    I consider myself lucky to have bought at good prices over 40 planes, but these have been what I could find, not necessarily the planes I would have bought if there were more choices available.

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    My worry about BSG is that it goes the same way - initial availability will be good, 6 months later unavailable anywhere except eBay. I'm hoping not particularmy as in this case Ares will be paying a licence fee for the IP which is likely to drive the need for income just to keep the game alive.

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    These are my thoughts:

    1.) Change the way reprints are handled. Firstly, dont reprint previously printed pilots/schemes. This solves the problem of players who are annoyed when they lose out on a new aircraft option because they already bought that one the previous time. It also stops players like me being annoyed that a reprint we hoped we would get did not get reissued (grrrr Brumowksi).

    2.) Use kickstarters as a print-to-order method for previously released pilots/schemes. Each re-release requires a minimum number of preorders, for example, 200. If at least this many preorders are received within a time limit, Ares reprints them, but does not print any extra for general release. This allows people like me to get hold of those coveted OOP aircraft, without causing aggro to the players who already own them. If the preorder level is poor, then Ares has clear evidence that there just isnt a demand for that particular aircraft.

    3.) Many players clearly love the idea of having whole or part of a squadron in their collection, and many of us like endless schemes of the same aircraft, so manufacture regular releases of new paint schemes of existing aircraft models. I for one love Albatros's and would be happy buying new schemes.

    People often cite the excuse that Ares is only a small company and cannot produce to this level of demand - i know this is true but business is business and if another competitor designs its own version of a ww1 airwar game thats just as good and can produce new product much more frequently, they may leave Ares behind. I hope this dosent happen.

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    It's been 1 year I believe since our last WWI release! No good going into 3rd qtr 2018 with no product date announcements yet!

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    Well since ARES is very slow in releasing planes I have gone to getting the AIM WWII planes and I know there are a few here that get SHAPEWAYS WWI planes. So despite the fact that ARES is slow, many here keep growing their forces and have a good time doing it. So we find other sources if ARES can't keep up. I have posted this many time that they should do like NEXUS did in doing booster packs until they can release the models to go with them.

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    Good Kickstarter idea Dan! I would invest in those.

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    Concerning Shapeways and AIM. The main issue is maneuver decks. You can get bases and sometimes pegs are still avalible. But the decks are the issue. Once you hit the critical mark with bought planes you have all of em, but that takes time. WWII is even more of an issue as there are fewer planes out there to start with and many iconic ones are still not issued. Hence there is a lot of maneuver deck issues out there even with the unofficial charts. How we still do not have a JU88, Betty, B-24, or Skeeter is unreal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    Well since ARES is very slow in releasing planes I have gone to getting the AIM WWII planes and I know there are a few here that get SHAPEWAYS WWI planes. So despite the fact that ARES is slow, many here keep growing their forces and have a good time doing it. So we find other sources if ARES can't keep up. I have posted this many time that they should do like NEXUS did in doing booster packs until they can release the models to go with them.
    But the selling point is a ready to use pre-painted model aircraft straight out of the box - having to source and paint your own defeats the object (although i understand it is rewarding to do so - i am a painter myself).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Concerning Shapeways and AIM. The main issue is maneuver decks. You can get bases and sometimes pegs are still avalible. But the decks are the issue. Once you hit the critical mark with bought planes you have all of em, but that takes time. WWII is even more of an issue as there are fewer planes out there to start with and many iconic ones are still not issued. Hence there is a lot of maneuver deck issues out there even with the unofficial charts. How we still do not have a JU88, Betty, B-24, or Skeeter is unreal.
    Agreed. I once thought about sourcing a single official model and then painting my own extras (for ww2 in this case) but you still only have one manoeuvre deck.

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    Ares' slow production towards the Wings of Glory has put a real damper on me.

    Too many tangent projects are taking priority.

    Many of the planes I have I won't even let but a few touch them.

    Only let people who knows how to handle them with care.

    If some get broken I can't replace them.

    My son wanted to take them to a bi-weekly gaming convention we go to.

    I had to tell him no, what if they break them.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by strontiumdog View Post
    if another competitor designs its own version of a ww1 airwar game thats just as good and can produce new product much more frequently.
    Dan,
    I've often thought how great it would be if another company recognized the demand and started producing "out of the box" 1/144 scale squadron packs (5 or 6 models) of a specific aircraft, well designed and painted, that could be easily adapted to WoG flight pegs. I understand that it is a niche market but how awesome would it be to be able to purchase say, an entire flight of Naval 10 Camels or Jasta 13 Fokker D-VII's for example? Not sure how you could get around copyright issues for the maneuver decks though…..

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby D View Post
    Not sure how you could get around copyright issues for the maneuver decks though…..
    In extremis you can use the MATES cards on this site, only 1 (or in some cases 2) card needed for each aircraft (or even each type), instead of selecting 3 cards you write down in secret the numbers of the manoeuvres you are performing and then resolve using the MATES card.

  19. #19

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    The maneuver decks are their strength and weakness. As long as they control the supply no one else can hijack their game or mass produce the planes we need giving them some control over the game. BUT... Failure to make planes or decks avalible on a regular basis stagnates the growth of the game and regulates it to a small market of collectors and painters. Non painters can not get the planes they need so sooner or later drop out. Newer players can not find more then a few odd airframes so move on. Hobby stores can not get enough to make a decent display on the shelf so get no draw in interest and soon just pass on it.

    Do I understand the lock on decks and plane cards?...sort of. Someone has made the decision to keep a tight grasp on the game or limited operating cash is holding them back. But fair warning, between copy machines and 3D printing getting better and cheaper they could lose control all together in the end. Been 8 years since Balloons came out and they are very rare now. Same with flight of giants. Planes are still easy to be found but there were 8 cards in the box set and only 4 of them became 3D planes. After 8 years we are still waiting for the other 4 giants to be produced and some have never seen a balloon. For WWII most of the iconic fighters have never been reprinted. Zeros, Wildcats, and Warhawks are all prem Pacific theater airframes but other then the odd Wildcat good luck finding one. Problem is, between the split second attention span of the younger crowd, and all us older collectors reaching the point where our gaming days are numbered demand could vanish over night.

    WWI has balloons, bombers, and lots of smaller planes but never got any sort of long term campaign to hold things together limiting it to a one off or convention game.
    WWII has BoB but again no real campaign thread to hold things together. Also very limited bombers sort of defeat the whole idea. Lack of reprints of some of the Pacific planes limits us to only concentrating on BoB.

    At this point I understand that the game will never reach class A status as there are too many SKU's that need to be produced and kept in stock at all times. I also understand that no matter what they produce we will want something different. BUT...some airframes HAVE to be avalible at all times or the game will never grow or even maintain it's grasp.

    OK now that the griping is over here are a few suggestions.

    WWI ...
    Stop dragging their feet on the re release of the Balloons and get them out there.
    Get reprints of set 4 and 5 back out there. the DH2 and the SE5a are some of the most demanded frames on E-bay.
    Produce a campaign box set giving players something to keep them coming back for another game.

    WWII
    Reprint HE111's and get the DO 17, JU88, and Defiants out there. Half the BoB airframes have never been released.
    Work on the pacific box set and either concentrate on the Midway/Coral Sea era of go late war island hopping. Either way get more Zeros out there.
    2 plane starter packs work great so produce a few for WWII. Thinking FW190 vs P-51 Mustang and Zero vs P 40 as starters. Gives you one set in each theater and covers very early pacific and late war Germany. Would need chits for A,B, And C damage decks and playing aids in each along with rules. Maybe throw in a small history/campaign ruleset also. All airframes are also already out there so no need to work up new ones.

    Alright reached my quota of belly aching for the day so good luck and have fun guys.

  20. #20

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    The biggest problem is while venting here can bring momentary satisfaction, all these points have been brought up here many many times.
    It's obvious that for whatever business reasons there are, this is the model we are stuck with.
    Andrea is not in charge of production. Jim Long (Ares USA, who we see at Origins) is not either. Whatever they say, the decision rests with the board members who are.
    And I'm sure they have heard what we say here.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    The biggest problem is while venting here can bring momentary satisfaction, all these points have been brought up here many many times.
    It's obvious that for whatever business reasons there are, this is the model we are stuck with.
    Andrea is not in charge of production. Jim Long (Ares USA, who we see at Origins) is not either. Whatever they say, the decision rests with the board members who are.
    And I'm sure they have heard what we say here.
    Karl
    That sounds a bit like "I dont play the Lottery 'cos i never win". If you don't make your feelings known to the manufacturers they will assume everything is A-OK, right up until sales drop right off. Your point about the board members is a good one but it doesn't mean their customers have to take it lying down. Worst case scenario is all the players resorting to painting their own models and resorting to other means (both legal and illegal) to obtain additional manoeuvre decks, resulting in missed sales for Ares. No, Andrea and Jim Long are not in charge of production - but they view this forum and they are in contact with the people who are on the board who are.

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    I think tunnel vision is one of our biggest issues. Most of us here are into Wings, and maybe sails (More of a wooden ships and Iron men fan myself). But the company produces a LOT more then that , I suspect our little group is very low in the feeding order. But airing our concerns and throwing out ideas does help feed our more productive members with ideas and areas to concentrate on. It needs to come up every now and then just to clear the air if nothing else. And you never know, something just might come out that sticks.

    You also have to whack sticky gears with a hammer every now and then to get things flowing smoothly again.

    It also helps to let people know just how much cash is going elsewhere to play their game. Nothing gets a boards attention quicker then lost profits. How much have we as a group sunk into shapeways, AIM, or other companies to feed our need? How much has the core company lost in sales because of it? How many non company planes have been used in demo games and cons.

    Case in point, I could not beg borrow or steal a DH 2 so got 2 through shape ways and painted them myself. Same with 3 HE 111's a Betty bomber, Defiant, and a few ME 262's There is a couple of hundred bucks the company lost out right there. Now look at the demand a couple of BoB games are getting just for the airframes for this game. Warlords sees the market, also the new BoB games sees one. I suspect matching scales and printing missing airframes was not an accident.
    Last edited by Shadowcat; 07-06-2018 at 20:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strontiumdog View Post
    ... If you don't make your feelings known to the manufacturers they will assume everything is A-OK, right up until sales drop right off...
    Think Karl's point was that whilst some are valid, all these issues have been aired here before on numerous occasions over the years, they are known to Ares and have made little to no discernible impact on their position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    ... It needs to come up every now and then just to clear the air if nothing else. .....
    Every now and then is fine but we don't need to kick it around the house every few weeks - it's boring and repetitious.
    Seems every time someone starts a thread about what's next these days someone has to expound their theories on how it should be done.
    You are preaching to the choir - if you want Ares to know your feelings go tell them direct.
    http://www.aresgames.eu/contact-us

    "He is wise who watches"

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    Thanks for your summation Dave.

    We do actually have appointed members who are continually in touch with Ares as advisors, both here and on the Anchorage.
    We all suffer the same frustration about the supply of product and those of us who do the shows also get it direct from the punters.
    We have attempted to survey the requirements of the membership, and inevitably get as many answers as there are replies.
    The only way to deal this is to cut out all the fluff and go for one main requirement. ie one essential missing aircraft, or the need for starter sets to be readily obtainable, not a load of wishful thinking about the impossibility of some little known aircraft which is just not going to be profitable.That approach will get us nowhere. Bombarding Ares with a plethora of disparate requirements will bear no fruit. We need to decide what we all agree upon first and then submit our request with the backing of the whole Drome.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

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    Sorry if I harp but spent 20 years in manufacturing and 3 and a half of that as a production scheduler. Some things just bother me I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Sorry if I harp but spent 20 years in manufacturing and 3 and a half of that as a production scheduler. Some things just bother me I guess.
    Don't get me wrong Ken. You are not wrong. It's just that we have been saying the same things even when it was Wings of War. I simply think that the thin end of the wedge might be better than a large blunt instrument in this case. Probably not but we have tried just about every other approach. Maybe they just ain't in a financial position to comply.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

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    I can fully understand the frustration of slow releases but I guess Ares are somewhat tied to what sells. People with a gauge interest will know about a Fokker Dr1 and a camel but past that it becomes a bit obscure. I still find it hard to believe there is know Sopwith pup!

    My biggest complaint is the cost. I picked up a pfalz for silly money but even some of the more common ones are going for around £20.

    The issue of the cards still remains and I doubt will change. I can get my obscure fix to a degree with shapeways but I still need to source flight stands and decks.

    I'm half in mind to sell my collection and go smaller scale.

    However, saying all that Kytes idea is common sense and would have more releastic outcomes.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by strontiumdog View Post
    Seeing the announcement of X-Wing Miniatures v.2 got me thinking about the future of WGF. For me it has stagnated and the slow frequency of reprints and new releases has contributed to me and my fellow group of gamers no longer playing it (im more a collector now). I know some of you are WGF diehards and will keep going forever, but for those of us that aren't, what are your thoughts on how interest in this game can be re-vitalised?
    The answer to this question is simple – release more planes. Even the most brilliant of game systems is worthless if you can’t get the pieces necessary to play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    I am no business guru but I would like to see WoG WWI and WWII products on sals at Museums such as the Australian War Memorial or the Museum of Flight. Millions of visitors each year would undoubtably snap up those.
    I have no idea what would be required to get the museum gift shops to stock these, but to me thisis a great idea. The people visiting, say, Wright-Patterson are going to be really into planes to begin with, and would seem to be a ready-made target for the game. It would be great to have regularly scheduled demos going on there to further pump the interest level. Of course, it doesn’t do any good to grab people’s interest if the planes aren’t available.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Yeah, the slow production process is a drag. However, I look at Tripods (not so much BSG) as a means of brining more players into the Wings of Glory realm, not a sign of the demise of the game. I don't see them as exclusive, but inclusive.
    At my latest convention appearance, I used the Tripods hook to reel in players that may never have looked at a historical game, and as the game progressed, expounded on the virtues of the WWI game. If nothing else, if the game stays in a separate camp, it will create demand for more WWI planes, and perhaps make the production process more profitable, yielding a better production schedule.
    I think Tripods was a clever idea to, as you say, bring more players in. One caveat – although Tripods is exactly the sort of thing that would work well in a convention environment, the success (or failure) of WoG to reach new players and be a sustainable product in the future will always be whether or not potential players can get the planes they want in their local game store. Which then brings us to…

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Lack of any support with new product and reasonable inventories of previous releases are killing it. Hobby shops either can not get it, or there is not enough in play at one time to make a decent display.
    The subject of availability was discussed at length here:

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...WW2-Miniatures

    In my travels for work I made a point of hitting every game store in all of the cities to which I traveled. The story was the same in each of them – either lack of interest in the game, or a complete inability to get adequate product to keep the shelves stocked.

    What I found incredible were the comments in this thread that there was adequate stock on hand available to be ordered except for a few items, and that distribution wasn’t a problem.

    Game stores may be selling a product that is fun, but at the end of the day they’re in business for the same reason every other business is – to make a profit. They don’t really care what that product is, but they do want to be able to stock product that will sell. You can’t make a profit trying to sell something that doesn’t exist. There’s a reason why most stores I’ve been to do not have WoG on their shelves. When they say they can’t get product it’s best to take them at their word.

    As to their distributors – the people in the stores I talked to said their distributors are telling them that there is nothing available in the pipeline to send to them. Distributors are in business for the same reason that game stores are - to make a profit. They’re not going to just sit on product they know they can sell and let it take up space in their warehouse. If the product is in stock and somebody wants it – you can bet it’s going out the door.

    This puts the question over to Ares – if there is adequate stock on most models for the distributors to order – where is all of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    WWII has other issues. Most of the iconic planes are long out of print and there has been NO new planes out in over a year. Again lack of planes or even the ability to use others due to lack of maneuver decks is a death blow. The Squadron packs were a very good idea but limited HE111's and no new German bombers to replace them sort of defeat the purpose of a BoB game. It requires bombers escorted by fighters as a key point in games. Otherwise it is just fighter vs fighter and heck with the timeline. Again, lack of proper airframes in stores at any time are hurting badly. The Grognards like us can make due or scrounge around but they miss the whole impulse shopping thing. Does no good to run a demo game when new players can not get a box set or extra planes even if they wanted. Again airframes are the sticking point here.
    For someone just getting into the WWII game today, unless they want to play British versus German, they are out of luck.

    Your use of the word “iconic” for some of the planes is a perfect choice of words. If you are serious about publishing a game about WWII air combat there are certain aircraft that just simply MUST be available at all times. Allowing the stock on these to just dry up simply cannot happen if you want to keep attracting new players and maintain a player base.

    Everyone has their own list, but I’d say the list of planes that must ALWAYS be available would be:

    US – P-40, P-51. Some may argue this list should include the F4F
    Britain – Hurricane, Spitfire (both early and late war).
    Germany – bf 109 (both early and late war), Fw-190.
    Japan – A6M Zero

    I suppose you could add others, but for me this would be the minimum models that have to be perpetually available, and it you start to run low on them they must be reprinted. I don’t have any Soviet planes on this list because I don’t have a good feel for what the demand would be for them. I don’t know of no one plays eastern front due to lack of interest, or if there’s a lack of interest due to the planes not being available. As to France and Italy, I don’t consider either of them to have an iconic plane. To back up that statement I would say that while it’s just about impossible to find a French plane at this point, I also have never heard a single complaint about that. I do think French planes need to be a part of the game, but not a critical part. As to Italy, the fact that at this point there is plenty of stock available for every Italian plane yet released when so many other planes are long gone proves the point that they aren’t iconic.

    Now, if you accept my list as correct, let’s see where we are.

    P-40s are gone. You see one once in a while on eBay, where it goes for a ridiculous price.
    P-51s have just about disappeared. None of the online game sites I looked at this morning have any. There are 5 planes available for one model on Amazon – the cheapest of them is $58 USD.
    F4F – see comments about the P-40.
    Hurricanes – you can still find these although they seem to be getting more difficult to find.
    Spitfire – some models are unavailable, but you can still find them online.
    Bf 109s – there seems to still be adequate stock on both early and late war models.
    Fw-190s – None of the online retailers I checked had any, and this morning there are none for sale on Amazon or eBay.
    A6M Zeros – Gone. I got into this game at Origins last year. In the year-plus since then I do not recall ever seeing a Zero for sale online other than on eBay. I have 6 of them solely because I bought a used collection from someone a couple of weeks after Origins.

    What this tells me is that at this point the game is virtually unplayable for someone who decides today that they’d like to play the game. From an American perspective, although the P-47 is a good plane, it’s not what I would call iconic. Not having the P-51 or P-40 available makes this game a non-starter from the outset for many would-be American players. From our perspective, not having the P-51 or P-40 would be like not having a Spitfire available for a player from Great Britain.

    I believe Ares is at a critical point for the WWII game whether they realize it or not. If they continue down this same road they will very shortly be producing and selling whatever planes they do produce to us diehards. From a growth standpoint the game will be dead.

    If I were in Ares’ shoes, I would be taking a very hard look at what I want to do as far as the next release. Supposedly we are going to see bombers as the next aircraft, with a release in 3Q 2019. I have serious doubts that this will happen. And, much as it pains me to say this (because I really want these bombers), in my opinion they should put this on hold.

    Under the assumption that Ares wants the game to grow and draw in new players (and thus new customers) what they should do instead is a reprint of all of the iconic fighters I listed above. These are the core pieces of the game. Without these it’s no exaggeration to say you don’t have a game. Reprint all of these and what you’ve done is to ensure that anyone who wants to start playing the game will have the basics necessary to do so. Go forward with the bomber release and, while it will make us diehards happy, it does nothing for potential new players. I think it’s possible that without reprints, when these bombers are released (assuming they’re on target with 3Q 2019) there won’t be any available fighters left to use against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    I know the company is looking at a Pressganger/Sergent type of program but without stock for the stores to move it is wasted effort.
    Please forgive my ignorance – I’m unfamiliar with this term. How does this work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Getting into BSG is great but you are already stretched too thin right now. Fix the issues with what we have before following down the same trail with yet another game that will not be properly supported.
    I confess I don’t have a good feel for how this will work out. My gut reaction is that this is coming out 10 years too late to be of much interest. On the other hand, sci-fi seems to do well, and it is a cool concept, so maybe there’s more here than I think. The big concern I have is the licensing. It couldn’t have been cheap to get a license for this line, and that represents capital that could have been invested in the WoG lines.

  29. #29

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    BoB, Privateer Press (Warmachine/Hordes) and Warlords (Botl Action) have people who run demos in stores of their games. These people are players who get comps (free stuff) from the company for their time but otherwise are normal Joes like us. Earlier this year a request went out for people who may be interested in joining a program like that for Ares. I threw in my name as I had 4 years exp as a Pressganger but never heard back from em. Not hearing back and not being in on testing T and T leads me to think I was passed over in the program (hey, my attitude does get a bit dark at times, and I gripe a lot so makes sense). Problem with the program is there are too many games from the company and considering most concentrate on one or two it does not fit well for a company wide program. My other concern is it does no good to promote a game that is not avalible in a lot of stores even if they wanted to carry it, Or core parts of it anyway.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    BoB, Privateer Press (Warmachine/Hordes) and Warlords (Botl Action) have people who run demos in stores of their games. These people are players who get comps (free stuff) from the company for their time but otherwise are normal Joes like us. Earlier this year a request went out for people who may be interested in joining a program like that for Ares. I threw in my name as I had 4 years exp as a Pressganger but never heard back from em. Not hearing back and not being in on testing T and T leads me to think I was passed over in the program (hey, my attitude does get a bit dark at times, and I gripe a lot so makes sense). Problem with the program is there are too many games from the company and considering most concentrate on one or two it does not fit well for a company wide program. My other concern is it does no good to promote a game that is not avalible in a lot of stores even if they wanted to carry it, Or core parts of it anyway.
    OK, I was familiar with the concept even if I didn't recognize the terminology.

    As to griping a lot... my experience is that people who gripe a lot often make for the best playtesters.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    BoB, Privateer Press (Warmachine/Hordes) and Warlords (Botl Action) have people who run demos in stores of their games. These people are players who get comps (free stuff) from the company for their time but otherwise are normal Joes like us. Earlier this year a request went out for people who may be interested in joining a program like that for Ares. I threw in my name as I had 4 years exp as a Pressganger but never heard back from em. Not hearing back and not being in on testing T and T leads me to think I was passed over in the program (hey, my attitude does get a bit dark at times, and I gripe a lot so makes sense). Problem with the program is there are too many games from the company and considering most concentrate on one or two it does not fit well for a company wide program. My other concern is it does no good to promote a game that is not avalible in a lot of stores even if they wanted to carry it, Or core parts of it anyway.
    Yeah. What about that? Thanks for reminding me about the Demo Host program. I never heard back on that topic, either. I thought I had been bypassed as being too far out on the fringe, here on Vancouver Island.

    Perhaps the idea got shelved, or maybe, like lots of Wings of Glory products, only postponed?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  32. #32

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    I started into this wonderful world in 2014, focusing on WGF.
    Luckily for me, a lot of product was still available at the FLGS - even DH2s and Eindekkers (although not Immelman)

    I see from archived eMails I started down the eBay route in February 2014 - a month after I started collecting.
    The prices as this point were very reasonable - often less than retail.

    Filling in holes in my collection started to get a little harder, and some of the eBay prices were definitely starting to see premium levels.

    In 2015 I decided that if I was going to get into WGS I had better start - most of the early releases were gone.
    I placed my first order with Keith and got the Lancs, B-17s, Fw190s, Bf.110s, Spit. IXs and P-51s.
    I am so glad I did that, even though only the Bf.110s have touched the gaming table yet.

    I picked up earlier pieces from 'drome members winnowing their collections - 3 years ago! - and made some deals with Evan.

    I kept up with ordering new releases from Keith, including the BoB re-releases, so have a farily complete collection now.
    I dare not tally up the

    "Upcoming" Series 7 had been listed on the front page of this site since 2014 - I see the details have been taken down now.
    Four years later, players are still crying for the promised Corsairs ...

    I sure hope we do not see a repeat of what happened to the original Wings of War, but Ares seems to be stretched far too thin these days.

    Tripods (along with Series 1 repaints) - Balloons - WGF Series 4 Reprints - WGS bombers - BGS - all supposedly "in the works" - many were originally promised fo 2018 release.
    The only one anywhere near target is the Tripods - and that because it was done on Kickstarter.

    As others have stated, we diehards will continue to purchase whatever crumbs we can get, but this does not look like anything that will be sustainable for new recruits.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    As others have stated, we diehards will continue to purchase whatever crumbs we can get, but this does not look like anything that will be sustainable for new recruits.
    I'm not trying to provoke anyone by saying this, but my honest observation is that the best thing that could happen for the game to be successful in the future would probably be for Ares to sell off the licensing of the game to a company with the financial resources necessary to market it. When were the last new planes released for the WW2 game - has it been two years? If so, and with the next releases (tentatively) scheduled for 3Q of next year, that's about 3 years between releases of new product. That's practically a "how to" manual of how to kill a game.

    Unless Ares takes a radically different approach to the game in the very near future the game is likely dead. No game like this, no matter how many diehards it has playing it, can survive long-term if no new players are being brought in.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Tripods (along with Series 1 repaints) - Balloons - WGF Series 4 Reprints - WGS bombers - BGS - all supposedly "in the works" - many were originally promised fo 2018 release.
    The only one anywhere near target is the Tripods - and that because it was done on Kickstarter.

    As others have stated, we diehards will continue to purchase whatever crumbs we can get, but this does not look like anything that will be sustainable for new recruits.
    I thought I had seen that BSG was coming out this year; for some reason I was thinking they were going to have it available for GenCon in August. Looking at the Ares site though I don't see it listed in the Upcoming Releases. Did it get pushed back, or was it never scheduled for 2018 release?

  35. #35

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    The strange thing is Bob, that in spite of all we have said, there is a steady trickle of new members of four or five a week to this site.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    im truly hoping that T&T and BSG generate interest for both wgf and wgs!!!! i really do.

    at origins there didnt seem to be lack of interest in wings as about 35-40% of the players were newer if not 1st time players (some of which were seen leaving ares booth with armloads of minis!!!). not to mention the apparent interest as evidenced by the prices commanded for certain out of print minis on the secondary markets.

    the main problem, it would seem to me, to be lack of new product and promotion. i have too many times seen interested players move on to other games for lack of novel product. like it or not that seems to be the current dichotomy of the gaming industry. dazzle the players with many shiny new baubles.

    my solution for wgf (with something similar for wgs) are first, to have at least 4 duel packs in rotating production at frequent intervals if not at all times. 2 would be the 2 that we already know. the 3rd would be an early war one with an airco dh2 vs a halberstadt DIII and (of course) a B damage deck. 4th would be the fokker DVII vs the se5a. this would cover most eras of the war and have quite a few iconic aircraft available frequently. second, would be to promote gameplay with prizes for scenarios (as opposed to all out organized play) much like what occurs at large conventions but through as many local games clubs an flgs as possible.

    for wgs would be something similar to the bob set but more akin to wgf duel packs so as not to require repurchase of the rule set with each new supplement. each set would include everything attendant to play the minis on the board NOT already included in the bob set (ie rules, damage chits, etc). also i would promote gameplay as i detailed under wgf.

    for both then could be special packs funded through kickstarter as the giants were.
    Phillip, maybe you can answer this and see if my perception is what you’ve seen.

    WW2 is plainly the red-headed stepchild to the WWI line. Based on my observations at Origins this year, it seems that WWI has a larger following than WW2, but that WW2 has a greater appeal to the novice. Of the three WWI games I was in I don’t recall a newbie in any of them. Contrast that with WWII, where in the six games I was in there was at least one new player in every game. I myself started playing at Origins a year ago, due to seeing the WW2 game. I was more attracted to WW2 because I was familiar with the planes; the WW2 game served to be the “entry drug” for me into WWI at Origins this year. I had little interest in the beginning in WWI because, even though I’m fairly well-read, I knew only a few WWI aircraft, whereas I know most WW2 aircraft on sight, even the more obscure ones. After playing the WW2 game, the ground (or air, if you prefer) was laid to expand my horizons into WWI since the basic system was the same.

    What I’m getting at is that I think new players are going to in general be more attracted initially to WW2 due to (at least, in the US) the greater familiarity with the aircraft. If that perception is true it would seem that Ares should be putting a lot more emphasis into the WW2 line to make sure it’s easy for new players to get started with. I think someone with a casual knowledge of WW2 can easily pick out a Spitfire, Bf 109, Mustang or Zero; I doubt someone with the same level of knowledge about WWI could tell the difference between a Se 5, SPAD, Sopwiith Snipe, or Neiuport.

    I think duel packs for WW2 are a great idea. Pair two natural adversaries together and it gives a new player a way to start the game with one purchase.

    If they want to release medium bombers for WW2 (and I hope these do come out) I think it would be better to do these through something like Kickstarter and concentrate their obviously limited resources on keeping the basic aircraft in stock.

    Regardless of what they do, Ares has to do something to make the game attractive to new players. Otherwise, a couple of years from now it’s just going to be us hardcore players getting together at club meetings and conventions playing each other, and the game will slowly wither away.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    The strange thing is Bob, that in spite of all we have said, there is a steady trickle of new members of four or five a week to this site.
    Rob.
    They may be new members, but the question is - are they new players? I can also tell you I have joined sites in the past for games I didn't play just to do reconnaissance on a game to see if I wanted to buy it. More times than not doing this convinced me NOT to buy a game.

    Don't get me wrong - gaining new members each week is great. I'm just not sure how much significance you can attach to that.

  38. #38

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    Maybe T&T with its KS will be the way forward?
    As things stand, I'd rather have the chance to buy planes via KS than no availability at all.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    The strange thing is Bob, that in spite of all we have said, there is a steady trickle of new members of four or five a week to this site.
    Rob.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    They may be new members, but the question is - are they new players? I can also tell you I have joined sites in the past for games I didn't play just to do reconnaissance on a game to see if I wanted to buy it. More times than not doing this convinced me NOT to buy a game.

    Don't get me wrong - gaining new members each week is great. I'm just not sure how much significance you can attach to that.
    Given that this site is a rich resource for information, regardless of the game might attract non-WoG players.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    BoB, Privateer Press (Warmachine/Hordes) and Warlords (Botl Action) have people who run demos in stores of their games. These people are players who get comps (free stuff) from the company for their time but otherwise are normal Joes like us. Earlier this year a request went out for people who may be interested in joining a program like that for Ares. I threw in my name as I had 4 years exp as a Pressganger but never heard back from em. Not hearing back and not being in on testing T and T leads me to think I was passed over in the program (hey, my attitude does get a bit dark at times, and I gripe a lot so makes sense). Problem with the program is there are too many games from the company and considering most concentrate on one or two it does not fit well for a company wide program. My other concern is it does no good to promote a game that is not avalible in a lot of stores even if they wanted to carry it, Or core parts of it anyway.



    how would one join such a program? i work in a game store and would love to be able to promote wings in an official capacity!!!

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    I'm not trying to provoke anyone by saying this, but my honest observation is that the best thing that could happen for the game to be successful in the future would probably be for Ares to sell off the licensing of the game to a company with the financial resources necessary to market it. When were the last new planes released for the WW2 game - has it been two years? If so, and with the next releases (tentatively) scheduled for 3Q of next year, that's about 3 years between releases of new product. That's practically a "how to" manual of how to kill a game.

    Unless Ares takes a radically different approach to the game in the very near future the game is likely dead. No game like this, no matter how many diehards it has playing it, can survive long-term if no new players are being brought in.


    youre only saying what many of us have been thinking.


    "because I bought a used collection from someone a couple of weeks after Origins. " this seems to be a theme with you lol!!!

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    The strange thing is Bob, that in spite of all we have said, there is a steady trickle of new members of four or five a week to this site.
    Rob.
    But we need to also keep in mind how many inactive members we have - those who likely joined when they were regular players but have since moved on to other systems. The largest number of persons on the site at any one time peaked in 2012 - that may also be a telling statistic.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    Phillip, maybe you can answer this and see if my perception is what you’ve seen.

    WW2 is plainly the red-headed stepchild to the WWI line. Based on my observations at Origins this year, it seems that WWI has a larger following than WW2, but that WW2 has a greater appeal to the novice. Of the three WWI games I was in I don’t recall a newbie in any of them. Contrast that with WWII, where in the six games I was in there was at least one new player in every game. I myself started playing at Origins a year ago, due to seeing the WW2 game. I was more attracted to WW2 because I was familiar with the planes; the WW2 game served to be the “entry drug” for me into WWI at Origins this year. I had little interest in the beginning in WWI because, even though I’m fairly well-read, I knew only a few WWI aircraft, whereas I know most WW2 aircraft on sight, even the more obscure ones. After playing the WW2 game, the ground (or air, if you prefer) was laid to expand my horizons into WWI since the basic system was the same.

    What I’m getting at is that I think new players are going to in general be more attracted initially to WW2 due to (at least, in the US) the greater familiarity with the aircraft. If that perception is true it would seem that Ares should be putting a lot more emphasis into the WW2 line to make sure it’s easy for new players to get started with. I think someone with a casual knowledge of WW2 can easily pick out a Spitfire, Bf 109, Mustang or Zero; I doubt someone with the same level of knowledge about WWI could tell the difference between a Se 5, SPAD, Sopwiith Snipe, or Neiuport.

    I think duel packs for WW2 are a great idea. Pair two natural adversaries together and it gives a new player a way to start the game with one purchase.

    If they want to release medium bombers for WW2 (and I hope these do come out) I think it would be better to do these through something like Kickstarter and concentrate their obviously limited resources on keeping the basic aircraft in stock.

    Regardless of what they do, Ares has to do something to make the game attractive to new players. Otherwise, a couple of years from now it’s just going to be us hardcore players getting together at club meetings and conventions playing each other, and the game will slowly wither away.



    more like the unwanted redheaded exchange student. i cant speak about wgs as i was only in 1 wgs event, but i saw quite a few new faces in many of the wgf scenarios (including mine where 3 were apparently new this year and 1 was new last year) including several leaving the ares booth with an armload of minis after inquiring about good match ups.

    my interest between ww2 and ww1 aircraft matches yours (ive been a big ww2 warbird fan for years, though i liked many ww1 aircraft as well) inn that i knew much more about ww2 a/c than ww1 (and probably still do though the gap has moste decidedly closed a bit) though i got into the game via ww1 and still prefer it over ww2. i love the minis from both though.

    i think the interest in ww2 warbirds in the us airshow circuit has a lot to do with this. one of my suggestions to ares when it was announced that they were releasing b-17s (joy of joys as it is one of my most favorite ww2 a/c) was that the g should be one of the famous airshow circuit 17s. i was politely told that they wanted to stick with more historical paint schemes (despite the fact that several of the airshow 17s have historical paint schemes [ i suspect it has more to do with licensing and copyright laws]). i agree that certain iconic aircraft from both wars need to readily available (if not constantly) for the game to grow.

    i think quad packs would be better for ww2 due to the nature of wgs gameplay (ie higher damage output and a/c dropping like flies lol). i do love the idea of seeing wings of glory in museum giftshops as wright-pat and am not sure why this isnt already a thing.

    if they need to to ensure a more regular release scheduled for regular series releases i would like to see kickstarters for them as well.

    im beginning to wonder if it hasnt already started down that path. in the time ive been working in a gane store (4.5 years) ive seen several new players showing a moderate interest in the game (i tend to promote it A LOT lol) move on to other thiings for lack of shiny new baubles on a regular basis. its frustrating. since getting my buddy tom into the game around august of last year, hes come to the conclusion that wings is far, far on the back burner and all but unsupported. ive been reassuring him this isnt that case, but im beginning to wonder if maybe hes seeing the state of the game more clearly through newbie eyes than the rose colored haze (from all the explosions at origins this year lol) through which i view the game.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Given that this site is a rich resource for information, regardless of the game might attract non-WoG players.
    Karl
    Thanks Karl.
    Apart from the bunch of friends I have through the game and this site in particular, that is the main reason that I bother to keep putting all the time and effort in to help Keith running this. To my way of thinking it is all a matter of footfall. Anything which gets peoples attention is better than nothing. Just look at the hits for Sniper's Times.
    The support from Ares is patchy at best, and from all the doom and gloom which I am hearing here maybe I am just and would be better concentrating my energies elsewhere just playing the game with my friends in Notts.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  45. #45

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    No gloom and doom here chaps! Lots of models are still available you just have to look for them which can be fun. I scored a couple of Breuget 14's the other day.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    ...WW2 is plainly the red-headed stepchild to the WWI line. Based on my observations at Origins this year, it seems that WWI has a larger following than WW2, but that WW2 has a greater appeal to the novice....
    Yes WW2 is the Tonx of WoG but my observations at Origins are the opposite to yours - I saw plenty of new players in WW1 games - I know that Jim's opener 'Fokker Fodder' had a load of newbies playing - 9/12 or something like that; he had a few in his 'Save the Cognac' game later in the show too and I had four or five out of the twelve in the game as well. Clearly not all games attracted new players but you can't draw conclusions without having the full picture.
    I know from events here that WW2 attracts interest but my experience is that WW1 is what attracts more players to a table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    ...Regardless of what they do, Ares has to do something to make the game attractive to new players. Otherwise, a couple of years from now it’s just going to be us hardcore players getting together at club meetings and conventions playing each other, and the game will slowly wither away.
    That's what people said years ago and mostly it's true, as it is with most game systems - yet we still attract new players every year as we did this year at Origins and elsewhere in the world.

    "He is wise who watches"

  47. #47

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    As a newbie I was drawn to wings of glory over crimson red skies as I am not a painter and I love the pre-painted miniatures. Yes they are hard to get hold of but with a bit of google fu and a constant eye on ebay I am starting to build up a collection. I do think the KS idea is a good one for re-releasing old planes, and new ideas like tripods ,and the giant bombers, as you can generate enough pre-sales to make the production run worthwhile. As a massive collector of Star Wars X-wing I was looking for a good ww1 / 2 version to play with my so they can be educated.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Yes WW2 is the Tonx of WoG......
    Bit harsh that, besides there were no Vulcans in the BoB
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  49. #49

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    WOG is never going to be a fad game. History is not in fashion these days, hence Ares's expansion to Tripods. Ares will have to cater to the smallish crowd of historical gamers and everything that entails to sustain this line. I hope there's an acceptable economy of scale that would make this a reasonably profitable venture for them. There does seem to be a profit to made in historical board games.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    Bit harsh that, besides there were no Vulcans in the BoB
    Yeah but the hat fitted - and there may have been no Vulcans in the BoB.... but it was a close call, he could have joined the Luftwaffe !

    "He is wise who watches"

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