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Thread: BoB Ammunition Rules?

  1. #1

    Default BoB Ammunition Rules?

    I'm curious, I've been using limited ammunition rules for my WWI scenarios and am wondering where I might find info regarding the limitations inherent for the planes represented in ARES' BoB series. I hadn't really given it much thought, presuming the belts in later planes were (compared to their WWI counterparts) in-exhaustive for the time frame of a given scenario. But after reading "Fighter Pilot" by Paul Richey, it seems that running out of ammo was a dangerously common occurrence in the middle of a dogfight during the Battle for France ... at least as far as Hurricanes were concerned.

    In my WWI Home Rules, I further penalize Rookies for "waste" and provide a bonus for aces; something I presume I'd incorporate in this latter era as well if it's truly an issue. It may well be that since the book is written about the first ten days of the war (May 10 - 19), the pilots in question fall under the "rookie" category, hence the quick emptying of their guns.

    Can someone please point me in the right direction?

  2. #2

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    The WGS rules from BoB Starter onwards do have limited ammo rules, but only for the Bf.109 at the moment.
    The 109 is limited to 4 shots with the 20mm cannons.

    I'm not aware of any other restrictions, which is odd because the Mk.I Spitfires and Hurricanes only had enough ammo for around 14 seconds of firing, compared to the 109s 10 seconds cannon fire (40 seconds for mgs though ).
    It seems that, to be fair, the Brits should be limited as well, perhaps to 6 shots each, with the 109s having 18 shots with the MGs.

    There was a documentary I saw on the telly that pointed this out; also comparing the SIZE of the bullets/shells, and testing their destructive power...............can't remember the name, though.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  3. #3

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    As Tim suggested I would give the Hurricane Mk.I and Spitfire Mk.I 14 2 second bursts. The 109E has four 2 second bursts with the 20mm and twenty 2 second bursts with the cowl mounted MGs.

    I have found however that most WGS missions are done and dusted before any of the aircraft can fire ten bursts. It is even unusual for the 109s to run out of cannon ammunition -particularly if you limit firing the cannon to close range shots = more damage per attack.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by BellMW54 View Post
    In my WWI Home Rules, I further penalize Rookies for "waste" and provide a bonus for aces; something I presume I'd incorporate in this latter era as well if it's truly an issue. It may well be that since the book is written about the first ten days of the war (May 10 - 19), the pilots in question fall under the "rookie" category, hence the quick emptying of their guns.

    Can someone please point me in the right direction?
    If you limit ammo 'rookie' players will run out way before the 'old hands' as they will fire consistently from long range instead of closing to short range in order to maximise their damage.

    If you want a rule to make players running rookie pilots exhaust their ammo faster make it that they HAVE to engage at long range.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    If you limit ammo 'rookie' players will run out way before the 'old hands' as they will fire consistently from long range instead of closing to short range in order to maximise their damage.

    If you want a rule to make players running rookie pilots exhaust their ammo faster make it that they HAVE to engage at long range.
    Even better (worse?), any time a rookie wants to measure range, they loose a shot, whether the measurement turns out to be in range, or out of range. More wasted ammo.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    The WGS rules from BoB Starter onwards do have limited ammo rules, but only for the Bf.109 at the moment.
    The 109 is limited to 4 shots with the 20mm cannons.
    Tim - where is this in the rule book? I looked just now and do not see mention of it.

    I searched the Forum on the weekend looking for posts on this very subject. I was playing BB401's BoB test scenario 1 and thought there should be some kind of limited ammo.
    Luckily it didn't come into play as neither of the 109s fired more than 3 times - that's what made me look! two Spits lost to the devastating draws from the C chit bowl ...


    Nevermind! Found it. I was using my Nexus 109s so did not pull out the special cards included with the new Ares models ...
    Last edited by Stumptonian; 02-27-2018 at 22:19. Reason: Answered my own question

  7. #7

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    If interested, I was able to consolidate ammunition type and capacities for each of the BOB and other WWII aircraft mini's.
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=2461

    The problem with ammunition limitations was the justification for why it would be limited. Mission and distance requirements would cause ammunition to be shorted in some cases to accommodate the aircraft load.

    I compiled these load plans (using online resources) because it always bothered me that WOG aircraft had no fuel or munition limitations. I wanted to be able to pull out a map, point to where they took off from and then calculated what their Fuel and ammo load out would look like.

    I like this level of detail because you really get to know an aircraft by what it can carry and how far it can carry it.

    As an example, with the BOB 109s you really get a feel for why they had so little flight time and limit on ammunition.

    On occasion I had to give it a best guess such as the bullet capacity of the SBD Dauntless rear gunner's twin 30s. Ultimately I had to examine the Dauntless cut away drawings specific to the 2 rear ammo boxes and best guess how many 306 rounds they held.

    I also drew from personal experience (non-combat) regarding the different bullet diameters, weights and effective ranges. I felt the damage ability of the 50cal aircraft armament had been grossly understated on the aircraft minis.

    Chris
    Last edited by THECCRICH; 02-27-2018 at 22:30.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Even better (worse?), any time a rookie wants to measure range, they loose a shot, whether the measurement turns out to be in range, or out of range. More wasted ammo.
    I like it

  9. #9

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    You may find this article about Battle of Britain Fighter Armament useful, Mike. http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/BoB.htm

  10. #10

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    That's a handy find David, chaps should be able to work out how many phases of fire they can get from that.

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

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    Great load plans Chris and nice article David.

  12. #12

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    Thank you Peter... Now I just have go get back to playing the game...

  13. #13

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    I have wanted to implement some limited ammo rules into the game as well to try and curb the bf109’s dominance with their 20mm cannon in BOB gameplay. I have tried to find the rate of fire for the given weapon type and the amount of ammo carried for each gun and work it out to how many shots a plane would have in an engagement. I claim to be no expert in WWII plane statistics and only go off of what I can find on the internet but here are my calculations for two planes.

    For example a P51 mustang carried 270 rounds for the 4 inboard 50 cal guns and 380 for the remaining two out board guns, and fired at an approximate rate of 13 rounds per second. Ive heard that every card played in game equates to about 2-3 seconds of flight time (I’ve decided to go with 3 personally) so the total amount of shots would look like this.

    4x inboard
    270rounds/ 13rounds per second/ 3 seconds= 7 shots
    2x outboard
    380rounds/ 13rounds per second/ 3 seconds= 10 shots

    A P51 Mustang would have 7 shots of at full strength shots (BBB/AB) and the remaining 3 shots at reduced strength (B/A)

    A bf109e-3 had 2MG’s firing at a rate of 17rps and a magazine of 500 rounds each, totaling about 29 seconds of firing time. The 20mm cannon had a rate of fire of 9rps and a magazine of 60.

    MGs
    500r/ 17rps/ 3s= 10 shots
    Cannon
    60r/ 9rps/ 3s= 2.2 shots (I round up to 3 for this to balance out the poor damage output of the MGs)

    House rules would have to apply to the 109 for damage dealing. The original damage output is (ACC/C) but with the limited 20mm ammo I would give a bf109e pilot 10MG cards dealing (A/A) damage and 3 cannon cards dealing (CC/C) damage, the pilot may fire them as he sees fitting. Should he choose to fire both damage types at the same time he would deal (ACC/AC) damage.

    I have made up some special cards (pictured) to represent the amount of ammo a plane would have for an encounter so a P51 would get 10 MG cards, and a 109 would get 10 MG cards and 3 cannon cards.

    Now I have a lot of homework to do for the rest of my collection of planes....

    I feel like ammo rules like these illustrated would discourage ‘jousting’ tactics and encourage trying to maneuver their plane in close for the best use of their limited ammo, not to mention it would help people last longer when going up against a squadron of P47 thunderbolts (BBBB/BB)

    Some special house rules I’ve come up with for use of limited ammo...

    If a plane has more than one type of weapon, (MGs and cannons) the pilot may select which weapon is being fired and must announce which weapon type(s) they are firing before using the range ruler.

    Anytime the range ruler is used to measure, it is considered a shot and uses ammo for that turn, even if the target is out of range.

    You can simulate ‘heavy’ trigger fingers of ‘rookie’ pilots by giving them (1-2) cards less ammo. Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #14

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    I'll let the experts weigh in but that looks good to me.
    (and I love your cards)

  15. #15

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    Those are great looking cards, Robert! At some point will you please consider submitting a file containing your rules and the cards to this site's Files section, please?

  16. #16

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    Cracking job Robert.
    High time we got this sorted with some cards.
    Well done that man.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  17. #17

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    Great looking cards Robert, I especially like the ones with the ammo belts being put in the planes or being carried.

  18. #18

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    Hi guys,

    It's been a while since I've been on the site so please forgive my seeming rudeness in not acknowledging everybody's contributions. Thank you all for your great insights; they all help me immensely! I guess it's time for me to dole out a few reps!

  19. #19

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    Just spent some time reading through a book in the Comox Air Force Museum library, and ran across a few things of interest about the Bf-109. One item is that the triggers in the cockpit allowed selective fire of either, or both, wing guns, as well as the fuselage MGs.

    So, a pilot could choose to fire the over-engine MGs and no cannons, both over-engine MGs and one cannon, everything, or just a cannon or two.

    Just as long as the pilot stated which guns he was firing before measuring the range, they could extend the C damage for more than four rounds.

    The main thing I was looking for concerned versions and bomb loads, so not of interest in this thread.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Just spent some time reading through a book in the Comox Air Force Museum library, and ran across a few things of interest about the Bf-109. One item is that the triggers in the cockpit allowed selective fire of either, or both, wing guns, as well as the fuselage MGs.

    So, a pilot could choose to fire the over-engine MGs and no cannons, both over-engine MGs and one cannon, everything, or just a cannon or two.

    Just as long as the pilot stated which guns he was firing before measuring the range, they could extend the C damage for more than four rounds.

    The main thing I was looking for concerned versions and bomb loads, so not of interest in this thread.

    Very interesting Mike. In the heat of battle I wonder how the pilots decided what to fire?

  21. #21

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    Another project has some relation to this discussion. Limited ammo for the Spitfire Mk.IIB, anyone?

    Aircraft Variants and Equipment Cards
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  22. #22

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    this has got me thinking... does anyone have an image of 20mm cannon round in their archives? my google has failed me

  23. #23

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    "He is wise who watches"

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