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Thread: Strategy Advice

  1. #1

    Default Strategy Advice

    I get that, at it's heart, WoG is a simple game (in a good way!).
    But after playing it on and off for 3 years now, I think I may be missing something.

    I play in battles of 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3. On occasion we will mix things up and throw in a bomber, or two-seater, or some trenches. But for the most part it's pretty straight dueling.

    And the typical battle goes like this:

    Opposing pilots start a foot or two apart facing each other.
    We fly towards each other, shoot when close enough, almost crash, fly past each other, perform Immelmann turns, and repeat.

    I exaggerate, but not by too much. Every now and again someone breaks away, is chased down and, surprise, performs an Immelmann to face his pursuer.

    We have a grand time, but I don't think it makes too much sense to put your pilots intentionally in the line of fire by flying at one's enemy head-on. (It does make for shorter dogfights though!). It also gets a little bit repetitive.

    Any suggestions?
    How do folks usually handle duels?
    Are we all simply playing too aggressively?
    Can one of us turn our opponent's aggressiveness to our advantage?
    Are pilots usually more defensive?

    Thank you!

    PS: might there be a preexisting thread in WoG tactics?

  2. #2

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    James

    There was thread about this just the other day.
    Click Here

    or an older one Click Here

    If you use the Advanced Search you can put in a keyword of Joust and get quite a few hits.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJames View Post
    Any suggestions?
    How do folks usually handle duels?
    Are we all simply playing too aggressively?
    Can one of us turn our opponent's aggressiveness to our advantage?
    Are pilots usually more defensive?
    Suggestions - don't start at opposite ends facing each other, create some scenarios that require some sort of mission to be performed.
    A scenario can dictate anything - start point, start speed of opponent, direction flying, what it must do, how it must do it, when it must do it by, where it has to leave the table and so on. All this can be randomly decided in a pick up game by rolling for it. eg:
    Decide who is being bounced, start them in the middle of the table on a facing away from their exit point, if it's a two seater have them moving stall, straight, stall as if they are working on something, say they cannot react until fired upon, put the attacker in a advantageous position, or, just roll for it on a D12; give them an exit point/edge, say they will fight to stay on station until x number of damage points received before they can run, and have at it.
    Once you set a scene games can be better. Have a look at the OTT scenarios they might provide some inspiration.
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...p-Rule-Threads

    "He is wise who watches"

  4. #4

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    I think I really have to start playing with the altitude rules.
    It really adds another dimension to the game.
    (No pun intended.)
    (Actually, that's not true - pun intended.)

  5. #5

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    Dave hit the nail on the head. Scenarios with missions are the way to go.

    You're somewhat nearby,(closer that me!) are you going to Cold Wars? I'm running 2 WWI and 2 WW2 Wings games. Check it out 'HERE'.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 02-01-2018 at 07:22.

  6. #6

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    Missions, definitely!

    Or add a second 'group' to each side; the extra targets starting from radically different positions soon disrupt the "jousting".
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Dave hit the nail on the head. Scenarios with missions are the way to go.

    You're somewhat nearby,(closer that me!) are you going to Cold Wars? I'm running 2 WWI and 2 WW2 Wings games. Check it out 'HERE'.
    Thank you. No, I'll not be attending - but I appreciate the personal invitation!

    The one thing that keeps up away from missions is our style of play.
    I hate to compare the game to boxing or wrestling, but that's kind of our approach.
    We're deep into campaigning - awards, badges, pilot stats, etc.
    We log all our games, and keep careful score of who shot down whom.
    As would be expected, the vast majority of our pilots don't survive their first mission.
    To handle all of this, we use the following house rules (which I probably stole from someone else, with modification) set forth below.
    As you can see, it tries to give pilots a fighting chance to survive getting shot down.
    All that said, in 3 years of playing (sporadically), our group's most successful pilot ever only has 13 missions under his belt (and counting!).
    Point is, missions and unbalanced scenarios don't fit neatly into our play style. Although we do on occasion try them out for a change, and certainly enjoy the experience when we do.


    Wings of Glory ● Campaign Rules and Awards
    Crash survival:
    • Roll 2d6:
    6 or less: KIA
    7: survives landing but dies of wounds (DOW)
    8: severely injured; must skip 2d6 missions; may fly again thereafter
    9: injured; must skip 1d6 missions; may fly again thereafter
    10: bruised; must skip 1 mission; may fly again thereafter
    11+: unharmed; may fly again immediately

    • Modifiers to dice roll:

    Ace: +1 --------------------------------cumulative with negative modifiers below

    1st Promotion: +1 (to Lieutenant, etc.)--cumulative with negative modifiers below
    2nd Promotion: +2 (to Capain, etc.)-----supersedes previous promotion modifiers;
    cumulative with negative modifiers below
    3rd Promotion: +3 (to Major, etc.)----- supersedes previous promotion modifiers;
    cumulative with negative modifiers below

    Award: +1 for first award -------------cumulative with other modifiers
    Award: +1 for nation’s highest honor--cumulative with other modifiers


    Exploded: -3 ----------------------------boom card drawn for any reason
    In flames: -2 ----------------------------downed by fire or downed while burning
    Collision: -2 ----------------------------downed due to collision
    Wounded: -1 (per wound )

    Escape:
    • Fly three full turns without receiving (or giving) in-range fire

    Rank and Promotion:
    • Start at lowest rank (1)
    • Once qualifying points are obtained, check for promotion after qualifying mission: promotion on 1-2 on 1d6.
    o If unsuccessful, check each mission thereafter in which a kill or win is recorded

    Points French /Belgian American Italian British Austro-Hungarian German Promo-tion level:
    5 Sergent 2nd Lieutenant Sergente 2nd Lieutenant Feldwebel Unteroffizier
    10 Adjudant Lieutenant Sottotenente Lieutenant Leutnant Vizefeldwebel 1
    15 Sous-Lieutenant Captain Tenente Captain Oberleutnant Oberleutnant 2
    20 Lieutenant Major Capitano Major Hauptmann Hauptmann 3
    25 Capitaine Maggiore 4

  8. #8

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    Randomly determining start positions, facings, exit points etc will still help with your style of combats, even in (the dreaded) balanced games !

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    The X-Wing miniatures game solved this problem by having six asteroids placed in the playing area so that it forces the ships to maneuver around instead of continuously flying directly at each other, performing an immelman and flying at each other again (jousting).
    I would suggest trying the equivalent for WoG by using clouds. House-rule that if the planes fly through a cloud that there will be some adverse affect. For example, the pilot becomes disoriented which causes them to be forced to fly a straight maneuver next turn. Or causes the plane to come out of the cloud facing in a random direction.

    (The Aerodrome store has clouds listed but unfortunately they're currently out of stock:
    http://www.aerodromeaccessories.com/...ry/clouds.html)
    Last edited by Scrivner; 02-01-2018 at 08:04.

  10. #10

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    Thank you both. Clouds are an excellent addition to our game play! I don't know why we never thought of that!

    Also, I think we will start incorporating random starting positions. Perhaps via a D12, we'll set each squad up around the clock, all facing toward the center. So, there's a chance they'd be facing each other. But there's also a chance that they'll be a 90-degree angles, or perhaps even pretty much parallel to each other (2 o'clock and 3 o'clock for example).

    And if we roll the same number, we'll flip a coin - the winner of the toss comes out of the sun and attacks the other team from behind to start the fight!

  11. #11

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    That's the spirit ! You could adapt the cloud cover optional rules on p.19 of the RAP so when a plane enters it disappears out of sight and the player stacks his cards until likely he is out of the cloud then plays them all at once.
    There is also this in the files re random start positioning but doesn't allow for all round foes and the start distances are probably way too big but they can be reduced to sensible sizes.
    Rolling a D12 works well for position relative to the target - start one squad in the middle then adjust the position if you're able - then roll again for their facing relative to the target, then adjust spacing depending on that result, you don't want to be too far back in a stern chase or too close in a closing situation.

    "He is wise who watches"

  12. #12

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    Name:  Encounter Random Placement Diagram.jpg
Views: 371
Size:  212.8 KB

    The above can be found here: Random Placement Diagram

    Gack! This requires dice. The shame.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  13. #13

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    We'll be flying with the altitude rules tonight -- no clouds or random set up just yet. My group wants to implement one adjustment at a time. Wish me luck! (And them, not so much luck!)

  14. #14

    Lightbulb

    Another simple change would be for a Bomber or a couple of 2 Seaters to fly from one side of the mat to the other & return & you all try to shoot it down,
    A Giant Bomber can be a real challenge!

  15. #15

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    Being relatively new to wog I found the first two dozen dogfights ended up being rinse and repeat immelmann fests.
    After we added new planes with tighter turns and rear guns etc, we found that it changed the game somewhat. The introduction of clouds blocking los was the final end of the immelmann repetition, now we find out scraps are varied and fluid in their actions. Planes like the Dr1, Camel and the late war fokkers don't need the immelmann to keep close, in fact they are better off turning or sliding sometimes.

  16. #16

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    Put a few clouds on the board. While flying inside the cloud randomly draw a maneuver card each phase until you exit If not using altitude remove the climb and dive ones, also remove the Immalman (reverse) card and stall. You can not see in or out of a cloud while inside it (I.E. No shooting or being shot at.) Also thought about ammo rules. Give each plane a dozen ammo counters (empty 22 cases?), now do you want to shoot at long range or wait till you close in? Rear gunners may have more ammo.

  17. #17

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    You may find something of use in this thread also. https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...Surprise+Games

  18. #18

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    I'm a noob at this game and appreciate the ideas shared here. I like both the inclusion of clouds and random deployment.

    I looked at the link to the Aerodrome clouds and while they are unavailable it shouldn't be too hard to make some out of card/thick paper. The rules for use of clouds are at the bottom of the link. Clouds could be placed similar to X Wing, three each taking turns to place them at least short range from another cloud and also the board edge.

    Random deployment can be decided by a six sided dice (we all have one of those) and the shooting range ruler (20 cm long).
    Roll:
    1- left board edge (short side) within one ruler of the corner, facing the opposite board edge (short side)
    2- within one ruler of the left corner of the long board edge
    3- more than one ruler from the left corner but no more than two rulers from the left corner
    4- more than one ruler from the right corner but no more than two rulers from the right corner
    5- within one ruler of the right corner of the long board edge
    6- right board edge (short side) within one ruler of the corner, facing the opposite board edge (short side)

    What do you guys think?

  19. #19

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    I like it.

    Has anyone used dice to randomly move the clouds during the game? I was thinking about rolling off for a general wind direction at the start of the game and moving the clouds half a ruler in that direction at the end of each turn. Could be real fun for bombing missions.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwanaJoe View Post
    I like it.

    Has anyone used dice to randomly move the clouds during the game? I was thinking about rolling off for a general wind direction at the start of the game and moving the clouds half a ruler in that direction at the end of each turn. Could be real fun for bombing missions.
    I do from time to time but with a scenario-set direction and distance moved (no DICE!!!!)

    It IS fun; if the bombing planes delay too long, the target can become masked with cloud, forcing the bombers to circle until a clear opportunity presents itself.................
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwanaJoe View Post
    I like it.

    Has anyone used dice to randomly move the clouds during the game? I was thinking about rolling off for a general wind direction at the start of the game and moving the clouds half a ruler in that direction at the end of each turn. Could be real fun for bombing missions.
    I have play using clouds. It can be quite interesting.

    Half a ruler, thats quite a storm! I move clouds every other card or 3 cards, something short, maybe 15-20mm, the short side of a card at most. Any plane that enters the cloud (peg) picks random movement cards until the peg is out.

    I'm sure there are many variations on people using clouds.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    I do from time to time but with a scenario-set direction and distance moved (no DICE!!!!)
    I agree with this. You could use a randomizer for initial wind direction but once the dogfight starts it will be over in real time before a change in the meteorological event would cause a drastic random shift in cloud movement. When playing PTO scenarios I do not move move the ships at all.

  23. #23

    Lightbulb

    Another idea for Clouds is to use large clumps of Cotton Wool.
    These can be lifted to allow aircraft to fly inside. Looks good on the games mat as well.

  24. #24

    Default

    You may find official or unofficial rules for these scenario types, or you may have to wing it. But you'll certainly get a lot more variety than "another random dogfight".
    • Balloon busting
    • Reconnaissance (2 seaters) -- inbound to the target, returning from the target, target is on the table, artillery cooperation, contact patrol.
    • Bombers (2 seaters or heavies) -- inbound to the target, returning from the target, bombing a target on the table, strafing troops.
    • Spy mission -- land and drop off or pick up a person
    • Scramble -- incoming recon or bombers, defenders take off from their aerodrome.
    • (Seaplanes) -- attack a ship or submarine

  25. #25

    Default

    Great idea - wind direction decided by a d6
    1- 12 o'clock from die roller
    2- far right corner
    3- near right corner
    4- 6 o'clock
    5- near left corner
    6- far right corner

    As someone suggested, would moving clouds a distance of 1 altitude peg each turn add enough variation?

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJames View Post
    Any suggestions?
    How do folks usually handle duels?
    Screw duels.

    Try this:

    Get a large playing area.
    Add Objectives on the ground for each side. Some soft (infantry), some hard (pilboxes, fortifications, bridges, your choice). Say 3 soft targes and 3 hard targets per side.
    Add Artillery pieces (Howitzers). Say 2 or 3 per side. Those can shoot both soft and hard targets.
    Add some AA to protect your howitzers.

    Now you have all that set.

    The GOAL: The side that destroy's all enemy targets (both soft and hard) first wins
    (alternatebly you can set up a number of turns for the scenario, the side that had destroyed more targets at the end of the defined number of turns wins)

    Now place the AIRFORCE

    Give each side a number of fighters, and two-seaters (both bombers and observers)

    How do you destroy the targets?

    Hard-targets can either be bombed from the air, or with your howitzers. For air bombardement use regular bombing rules. For artillery bombardement use 'spott' rules (a spotter plane has to fly around the ground target within a rule distance from it, then it 'marks' the target for your ground artillery... howiterzs begin firing to the spoted target using apropiated damage cards)

    Soft targets can be either bombed from the air, with artillery, or straffed by both two seaters or fighers.

    Fighters role is to protect your targets and scort your two seaters while bombing/spotting enemy targets.


    We've been playing this type of scenario (with variations) with my friends and it's a lot of fun -- much better that duels or having two-seaters flying around with no actual purpose othern than being movile targets for fighter.

  27. #27

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    My take on Clouds can be found HERE -> https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...parting+clouds

    This is the Mk.I

    The Mk.II is currently in use (thread to follow)

    The Mk.III is still in development, but should be in prototype form soon.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  28. #28

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    Wow, awesome scenerio. How big is “big” for the playing area? 6x4, 6x6, larger?

  29. #29

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    The Scenario can be small or large depending on what you want and have.
    I have three playing matts, so I like using them all: placing the No-Men-Lands between the Urban and Country-Side ones. Place a couple of soft and hard targets for each side within No-Men-Land (as infantry position and fortified positions), and at least one hard-target and two howitzer batteries per side within each player’s territory (the Urban matt, and the Country-Side matt).
    My group of friends adds to six players, each of us can manage two minis each, so we like going with doing this scenario with six flying-machines. The normal choice is 4 fighters and 2 bombers per side.
    Naturally all bombers go over the enemy lines, but how many fighters go as escorts, how many stay as CAP over the trenches, and how many stay behind covering the heavy artillery is a player’s decision. It’s also a player’s decision whether to go use the bombers as spotters for the artillery against the hard targets … or to attack the artillery itself – I like bombing the hard targets and then using the bombers as spotters; going after the enemy artillery with at least one bomber and then using it as artillery spotter for artillery bombardment against enemy howitzers is also a good strategy.

    You can go as small as playing on only one matt with just only one fighter and only one bomber per side, using only the ‘over the lines’ soft and hard objectives and considering the artillery as being off-board. Of course you miss the fun of going after the enemy howitzers.

    We give points to both soft and hard ground targets, howitzers, AA units, and of course to planes. To destroy a ground target by air bombardment we use the rule-book rules (covering ground target’s red dot when bombing and you destroy it, cover the card but not the dot you cause half damage). To destroy hard or soft targets with artillery bombardment we use the X damage deck. Normal rules for strafing soft-ground targets.
    Victory conditions:
    Victory by points: the side that caused more damage (destroying more units and targets) by the time the scenario reach the number of turns agreed by the players is the winner.
    Victory by targets destruction: the side that destroys all enemy ground targets wins the game automatically.

  30. #30

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    Ezekiel

    To destroy hard or soft targets with artillery bombardment we use the X damage deck
    What is the X Damage Deck?

  31. #31

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    The X damage deck is top secret and typically limited to WGS scenarios. What is your security clearance?

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokhuah View Post
    The X damage deck is top secret and typically limited to WGS scenarios. What is your security clearance?
    About the same as Jared Kushner's

  33. #33

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    As suggested, scenarios are a great way to limit this. Fighters escorting recon is very good, because you can use a (semi-)maneuverable recon plane.

    Another good one is to really switch up the planes. Try pursuing a Brisfit. You don't need to take on people head on -that thing has bigger guns shooting out the arse than it does straight ahead, is tough, fast, and very maneuverable for a two-seater.

    Mix up the planes and learn the maneuver decks. A few planes have two sharp 90-degree turns. That means you can pull a 180 faster than someone in an Immelman, and they're not steep maneuvers. Two 90's, wicked sideslip card, followed by two 90's. You now just dodged the infa-Immelman weenie and you're on their tail when they planned a straight. Using tailing rules? Bonus. That very short non-steep turn in the D.VII deck is great for throwing people for a loop.

    If you're flying more than one plane start using different cards. Going head to head? Spread your planes out a tad, work on a bit of a pincer, and drop a stall in there on one of your planes. Again, Immelman weenie stays under your guns while s/he's forced to fly a straight.

    You can also try some Immelman houserules that make Immelman's more realistic (stall turn or wingover) rather than the way they're portrayed in WGF.

    Jousting only works when both people do it. If you're fighting Immelman weenie, keep slipping and force him/her to actually turn and use other cards in the deck if they want to shoot you.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrivner View Post
    House-rule that if the planes fly through a cloud that there will be some adverse affect. For example, the pilot becomes disoriented which causes them to be forced to fly a straight maneuver next turn. Or causes the plane to come out of the cloud facing in a random direction.
    We do exactly that! In a cloud, what we do is discard your next planned maneuver card and pick another at random from your deck- you can literally pop out anywhere

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ross View Post
    We do exactly that! In a cloud, what we do is discard your next planned maneuver card and pick another at random from your deck- you can literally pop out anywhere
    I have trialled something a little less extreme; in a cloud, each card can only be drawn from a reduced movement deck consisting ONLY of straights and normal left & right turns (9 cards), the logic being that if you can't see anyone else, and they can't see you, do NOTHING extreme in case you collide!

    If a plane STARTs its three card turn whilst in a cloud, the first plotted card is replaced with a random card from the reduced deck, and the plane moves using the resulting 3 cards.
    This way, there are no sudden inexplicable reversals or 90 degree turns.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    I have trialled something a little less extreme;.....
    This way, there are no sudden inexplicable reversals or 90 degree turns.
    But those are the fun part! And easily explained by the sudden and complete disorientation of a pilot when all visual points of reference are suddenly lost (which way is up?) as well as the thermals within a cloud which causes the phenomenon that glider pilots are only too aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ross View Post
    But those are the fun part! And easily explained by the sudden and complete disorientation of a pilot when all visual points of reference are suddenly lost (which way is up?) as well as the thermals within a cloud which causes the phenomenon that glider pilots are only too aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck
    Go with whatever fits with your game!
    My feeling is that in an open cockpit you would definitely know which way was up, whether you were turning sharply or not, and the reduced deck keeps it simple (and similar) for all pilots and plane types.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJames View Post
    I get that, at it's heart, WoG is a simple game (in a good way!).
    But after playing it on and off for 3 years now, I think I may be missing something.

    I play in battles of 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3. On occasion we will mix things up and throw in a bomber, or two-seater, or some trenches. But for the most part it's pretty straight dueling.

    And the typical battle goes like this:

    Opposing pilots start a foot or two apart facing each other.
    We fly towards each other, shoot when close enough, almost crash, fly past each other, perform Immelmann turns, and repeat.

    I exaggerate, but not by too much. Every now and again someone breaks away, is chased down and, surprise, performs an Immelmann to face his pursuer.

    We have a grand time, but I don't think it makes too much sense to put your pilots intentionally in the line of fire by flying at one's enemy head-on. (It does make for shorter dogfights though!). It also gets a little bit repetitive.

    Any suggestions?
    How do folks usually handle duels?
    Are we all simply playing too aggressively?
    Can one of us turn our opponent's aggressiveness to our advantage?
    Are pilots usually more defensive?

    Thank you!

    PS: might there be a preexisting thread in WoG tactics?
    I'm late chiming in but, getting back to the original post, I agree with what many has said above. Missions and scenarios completely change the game for the better. 1v1 games are not terribly fun for us and even 2v2 isn't as tactical as we'd like. But play a mission and everything changes. Now there's a reason for a 2 Seater, and for them to cross enemy lines and brave AA fire. Escorts are acting as escorts and now might be willing to risk it all to protect the 2 Seater's mission. Some add that if you're down to 3, or 5 for larger planes, health they will immediately return home; so not you have a secondary mission where, even if you lose, you want to survive.

    Tactics change dramatically.

    Have fun.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Ezekiel



    What is the X Damage Deck?
    a deck for artillery. you can download it from the files section -- I guess

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    My feeling is that in an open cockpit you would definitely know which way was up, whether you were turning sharply or not
    You'd be surprised at how easily and how badly one can become disoriented with no visual queues. It happens to even very experienced pilots. This is how JFK Jr was killed.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrivner View Post
    You'd be surprised at how easily and how badly one can become disoriented with no visual queues. It happens to even very experienced pilots. This is how JFK Jr was killed.
    Totally agree. One part of flight training is to go "under the hood". The student wears a visor that only allows them to see instruments, the instructor tells them to close their eyes and puts the plane in a strange attitude, then tells the student to recover. With no visual reference it's nearly impossible to tell what attitude the plane is in. We do this exercise precisely so VFR students have enough instrument familiarity to avoid augering in.

    When I was instructing on sailplanes, we always told our students if they enter a cloud, don't do anything but open the spoilers.

    It's very easy to get disoriented in a cloud. Spin recovery wasn't taught until late in the war (and WWI aircraft spin readily), and I imagine they were easy to fold up on a spiral recovery.
    Last edited by kalnaren; 02-22-2018 at 08:48.

  42. #42

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    But they did have rudimentary instruments on board. And there are stories aplenty of pilots flying into clouds; MVR immediately comes to mind. So while they might not be completely on course, it wasn’t a given they'd bite the dust either.

    The hood thing wasn’t nearly as fun as the spinning chair and stick test though. Always had a blast at that one.



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