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Thread: WW1 Chandelle manouver

  1. #1

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    Default WW1 Chandelle manouver

    Hi, I am interested in how a play a "chandelle" (tight turn about) is WGF/WW1 ?
    Would be something between 3 x 60o turn moves and an Immelmann turn? Manouver definitely shown in WW1 handbooks.....

  2. #2

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    Very difficult to do within the rules & as a three card turn Stephen - a chandelle is a 180 climbing turn so you could simply play three 60 degree turns followed or preceded by a climb. If the machine has a couple of 90 degree turns it can play together (ie not steep) you could follow or precede them with a climb.
    If you wanted something more bespoke as a three card manoeuvre then I would suggest something along the lines of:
    Straight - Immelmann - Stall; where the Immelmann card is displaced left or right when played, the model is reversed & placed beside the card to provide the lateral displacement of the machine. The Immel also represents the climbing element of the move. The stall card then represents the loss of energy/momentum from pulling the manoeuvre.
    It may not suit as it's outside the rules, the turn may look too tight, though you could displace the Immel further over, you'd have to play about with it.
    If you play the Immel card as normal, place the plane beside it in desired direction of turn, then move the Immel card to the other side of the base, then move & reverse the model to the other side of the card that may do it.
    If I find time I will play it out tomorrow with a model and photo it.

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    You need the Ace skill 'Acrobatic Pilot', which allows you to perform a non-straight maneuver after an Immelmann or a Split-S (Take 5 recovery counters). Play 'Straight-Immelmann-Sideslip' to produce the effect of narrow 180 degree turn.

    However, I believe that there is another newer Ace Skill in WGS, which allows a climb or dive during a normal maneuver, and uses special counters designed by Oberst Hajj available from the Aerodrome Accessories shop. Perhaps that could be adapted to WGF.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    You need the Ace skill 'Acrobatic Pilot', which allows you to perform a non-straight maneuver after an Immelmann or a Split-S (Take 5 recovery counters).
    Only if this manoeuvre is an Immelmann turn or a split S David - which it is not.

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    I know that a Chandelle is not the same as an Immelmann turn but what I suggested will leave the plane in the same position as if it had performed a narrow 180 degree climbing turn, which is a Chandelle.

  6. #6

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    Looking at what I can find on the Chandelle, there is actually nothing 'tight' about it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It is a 180 degree turn. It happens to include a continuous climb, as well. The continuous climb is impossible without house rules, as I understand the altitude rules within Wing of Glory. This says nothing about the lack of maneuver cards that allow climbing, or diving, turns.

    I have copies of climbing and diving turns for WWF maneuver decks which were removed from the Aerodrome files for IP reasons. I have put just the climb/dive maneuvers in an album: WWI Maneuver Deck Climb/Dive Cards (Not complete for WGF decks).

    Note that all the climbs and dives are Steep maneuvers, keeping with the original Altitude rules, so even with these cards, a Chandelle is still impossible.

    Interesting that this maneuver was developed in WWI, but is not available to us in Wings of War/Glory.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

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    Lots of things aren't possible in WoG; That's just what the game engine allows.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  8. #8

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    I guess you can play a climb/turn combination on a turn after or before a climb/2 turns combination. This will give you the 180* turn and two climb increments.

    In WGS you can use the ACE speed tokens 'HERE'. They have slow maneuvers with a + and fast with a - so you can gain/lose altitude on normal maneuvers. (I play gain 2 increments on an actual climb card) At least this is available for WGS.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I guess you can play a climb/turn combination on a turn after or before a climb/2 turns combination. This will give you the 180* turn and two climb increments.

    In WGS you can use the ACE speed tokens 'HERE'. They have slow maneuvers with a + and fast with a - so you can gain/lose altitude on normal maneuvers. (I play gain 2 increments on an actual climb card) At least this is available for WGS.
    This is a house rule embellishment, Peter. And as an embellishment, a nice addition, if everyone goes along with it.

    I have played a WGS game using the climbing and diving turns, and it makes a more realistic experience. However, no-one tried to do a Chandelle, IIRC. It would have been a staggered climb, though, even with the house ruled climbing turns, as the climbing/diving turns were still considered 'Steep' maneuvers.

    Link: WWS 5.8cm Maneuver Deck - Climb and Dive Cards
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

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    Definitely a WGS house rule. I think it lets you get the feel of altitude advantage better as climbing is now easier. With the +/- chits on normal maneuvers I don't play with them as steep. (chandelle is possible this way) If you use the actual climb card (which of course is a steep maneuver) and a + chit, for this I give 2 climb increments!

    WGF is a different story and we have to play out a chandelle over 5 cards.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    I know that a Chandelle is not the same as an Immelmann turn but what I suggested will leave the plane in the same position as if it had performed a narrow 180 degree climbing turn, which is a Chandelle.
    I would imagine you do and that was not what I was saying - the point I was making was that this is a bespoke solution, the card isn't representing the Immelmann turn, so you don't need an ace skill to use a stall after it, it's just using that card in a different way for a different purpose.
    I think using just the side slip would make it too tight a turn & not different enough from the Immelmann, that's why I thought offsetting the Immelmann card would account for this lateral movement, using the stall at the end to account for energy loss of the climb.
    It was just an idea I had to help Stephen to perform something the rules can't cope with using the cards to hand in a three card config; at least it has provoked some thought on the subject...Even if it is WGS !
    Last edited by flash; 01-28-2018 at 11:00.

    "He is wise who watches"

  12. #12

    Default 3 Card Chandelle in Pictures

    If I find time I will play it out tomorrow with a model and photo it.
    Well I got round to it eventually !

    The first card of the Chandelle is a straight.
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    The second card of the Chandelle is a bit more involved regarding its placement and use as it is the climbing & turning element of the move. Immelmann - 1. slide to the side you wish to move towards
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    To represent the lateral movement you have to create space between the original line of flight and the new by moving the card & model. Immelmann - 2. Place the model base alongside the card
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    You don't want this too narrow so...
    Immelmann - 3. Move the Immelmann card to the other side of the model base
    Click image for larger version. 

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    To finish the 2nd card ...
    Immelmann - 4. Now place the model correctly on the Immelmann card.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And Finally ... height gained, energy/speed lost so:
    Card #3 - Stall card - place & move the model onto a stall card.
    The plane card you will have noticed on the table in the other shots is where the model would have ended up by doing 3 x standard turns from the same start point. With the vertical element of the move taken into account I think the final position is about right.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/al...p?albumid=4103

    Anyway, there it is - my idea for how to do a three card Chandelle - for what it's worth.

    A similar mechanic could be used for a 'Wing Over' - but finish on a Straight instead of a Stall and no gain in Alt.
    Last edited by flash; 02-08-2018 at 02:35.

    "He is wise who watches"

  13. #13

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    That is good but I feel that you ought to give some indication, when the cards are selected, as to whether the Chandelle is to the left or right. Similarly in the case of a 'Wing Over' there would need to be an indicator of not just left or right but also that it is a 'Wing Over' and not just a normal Immelmann turn.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    That is good but I feel that you ought to give some indication, when the cards are selected, as to whether the Chandelle is to the left or right.
    What if you used a sideslip instead of the straight - that would be either left or right and not require some other chit.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    That is good but I feel that you ought to give some indication, when the cards are selected, as to whether the Chandelle is to the left or right. Similarly in the case of a 'Wing Over' there would need to be an indicator of not just left or right but also that it is a 'Wing Over' and not just a normal Immelmann turn.
    That could be accomplished with a left/right card or marked chit for both manoeuvres placed on the card after everyone has selected their cards so as not to give the game away.

    "He is wise who watches"

  16. #16

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    That is a good idea, which should work. If the player forgets to lay the chits, then the moves must be made as normal with any penalties for illegal moves. The chits idea could well be extended to other aerobatic moves like spins or looping the loop.

  17. #17

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    I like the added chit, simple and effective.

    It's too bad we can't get new cards to add into our decks for these maneuvers. I might make some for myself. I made similar maneuvers for flying my dragons.(see below) This would give us the ability to do reversals and not always do a perfect 180* turn. How far off center of a pure Immelmann should the plane end up after a Chandelle?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #18

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    The plane would end up three card widths off where it should be for a virgin Immel Peter.

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

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    Ah, so a single card won't work.

    Should we also look into non-180* reversals?

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Ah, so a single card won't work. Should we also look into non-180* reversals?
    Only a real wiiiide one Peter but that would tip your hand somewhat !
    Not sure what you mean by non 180 reversal... if it's not 180 is it a reversal ?! Willing to have a punt at something if you tell me what you're looking for though - drop me a PM.

    "He is wise who watches"

  21. #21

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    I'm just questioning why we are restricted to a 180* reversal. If you look at the dragon maneuver above that looks like a question mark, this is where I am thinking. Instead of just 180*, why not other possibilities, 165*, 150*? Does doing Immelmanns and Chandelles have to leave ones position at 180* from the starting direction? Unfortunately we are restricted by the cards we have in each deck. (if one cannot make new ones)

  22. #22

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    Gotcha, the restrictions of the cards is made up somewhat by the arc of fire but it does drastically reduce your options manoeuvre wise. A WW1 Immel appears similar to what's called a hammerhead today which is pretty much straight up and down so I'm happy with the 180 element of that but I know what you mean. What would improve it greatly is a slightly more relaxed entry & exit criteria ie long turns in and/or out of it but that seems reserve of ace skills in game, not that you have to follow the rules at your own table !
    In terms of the more modern half loop Immel that would be more likely a candidate to be tinkered with. Maybe slip in the ruler width at one corner twixt base & card to offset the end positioning & therefore direction of travel ? Would that be enough or too much ?
    Same could be applied to the Chandelle & Wing Over on the last immel placement. Not in position to try this out until after this weekend but it's the simplest solution I can see off the top of my head - I'll let you tinker with the idea until then.

    "He is wise who watches"



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