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Thread: Getting Started Recommendations for Battle of Britain

  1. #1

    Default Getting Started Recommendations for Battle of Britain

    Somewhere vaguely around $120 for selling those excess Sopwith Camels, so what I am intending at the moment is:

    Starter set (two Spits, two Me 109)
    2 Hawker Hurricane
    2 Stuka
    1 Heinkel 111
    1 Me Bf 110

    I figured that the interest and variety was more in the missions of the Germans, so get more of those at least initially. Different balance of planes? Keeping in mind that whatever I add takes away something else. Best first things to add as I go along?

  2. #2

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    British fighter formations 3's
    German fighter formations 2's, 4's
    German bomber formations 3's
    Stuka's um(?)
    ME 110's (?)

    Normal tactic was for Hurricanes to hit bombers and spitfires the fighters, or was that the other way round. UKWingCo would know for sure.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    British fighter formations 3's
    German fighter formations 2's, 4's
    German bomber formations 3's
    Stuka's um(?)
    ME 110's (?)

    Normal tactic was for Hurricanes to hit bombers and spitfires the fighters, or was that the other way round. UKWingCo would know for sure.

    Neil
    Stukas like the level bombers also flew in a 'Kette' of three aircraft, and the Bf 110s flew in 'Schwarm' formation of four aircraft in two elements of two aircraft called a 'Rotte'.

  4. #4

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    I was looking more in the sense of reasonably balanced forces for a given mission. Flying in historical formations is more dependent on having a fair amount of players available. Presume that is not the case. I'm talking about the basic set and maybe another half dozen planes or so. Putting the fighters alone into historical formations would mean an additional six planes for the Spits, Hurricanes, and Me 109s. No bombers at all. No heavy fighters. More interested in mission versatility.

  5. #5

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    You can do no worse than peruse Carls campaign from down under.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/for...Action-Reports

    All about the Polish Air Force through Poland and onto France. Eventually they will get into BoB. But that should give you plenty ideas about how good a campaign can be with very unbalanced forces.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  6. #6

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    The forces were very rarely balanced in Battle of Britain encounters, Bruce. The Royal Air Force were nearly always outnumbered, sometimes by a large margin.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    I was looking more in the sense of reasonably balanced forces for a given mission. Flying in historical formations is more dependent on having a fair amount of players available. Presume that is not the case. I'm talking about the basic set and maybe another half dozen planes or so. Putting the fighters alone into historical formations would mean an additional six planes for the Spits, Hurricanes, and Me 109s. No bombers at all. No heavy fighters. More interested in mission versatility.
    Unless your bombers are actually going to be bombing targets and therefore scoring victory points their numbers are not important. Your players should be nibbling away at the edges of the formation and not opening themselves up as targets to numerous bombers at any one time. If the enemy bombers have fighter escorts they should be about equal to the interceptors for a tough fight or half their number for an easier encounter.

    For example if you had 3 players one person could fly the flight of up to 3 bombers, another an element of 2 or 3 interceptors and the other an element of 2 escorts. If you had another player they could run another element of 2 or 3 interceptors, meaning one could take on the escorts and the other the bombers. Set up is also important, say giving the interceptors a chance to have a chop at the bombers before the escorts can intervene.
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 08-21-2017 at 22:52.

  8. #8

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    Games I have played are not about balance, actually. As others have said, it was never balanced.

    That being said, I follow the rule that WWII games should be flown with two planes per person, or more. As the weaponry tends to be brutal, this allows a player to keep in the game when one of the planes is shredded. Each player plans moves for the formation (Rotte (2) for Germans, Vic (3) for British), using one card for the lead, and moving the formation with the lead. Only if the player breaks formation is it necessary to plan for each plane.

    For the German planes, put the lead plane down, and place the stand for the winger on the left or right back corner, using the appropriate corner of the winger's stand to match up. For the British, you put a winger on each back corner of the leader's stand. All moves are using the leader's stand, putting the wingers in place once the leader is moved. Yeah, this isn't accurate. However, it plays quickly.

    Planes can reform, if they have separated, if they fly close enough to approximate a formation. The movement cards are not as forgiving for fine throttle and steering adjustments. Wing it!

    PS: Put bombers on auto-pilot, and use them for targets. They are boring to fly. Someone can be put in charge of the movement, and shooting, but really they don't have too many options. A few trick turns, once in a while, will mess up attack runs by allowing the defensive guns to hit planes that weren't expecting to be hit. But that is about the limit of fun for the targets.

    PPS: Use a big table, let the bombers start from the edge, and the defending fighters start in the middle. Bomber escorts could start at the same or different edge. You could even have the escort fighters start a turn or two later, depending on the table size, as the bombers won't move as fast as fighters at high speed. Try a few moves to judge. Fighters close very fast in WWII games, and I still misjudge this. You could be at long range one phase, and overlapping the next, depending on the planes.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-21-2017 at 22:44.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    The forces were very rarely balanced in Battle of Britain encounters, Bruce. The Royal Air Force were nearly always outnumbered, sometimes by a large margin.
    Thank you. I appreciate the answer. But....

    That's not the question I asked. I am asking a purely game question about a decent mix of planes that can produce a fun mission that either side can win. Starter set, another six planes or so. Gave the mix I came up with - if you would choose differently, by all means, let me know! Even go from there and talk about the history behind what you would choose, but within the limitation of the basic starter set, six or so additional planes, preferably that give varied mission possibilities.

    Edit in: reading the other responses. Ummmm, really thanks, but I'm not exactly sure why people are determined to not even try in the slightest to answer my question. I'm just asking for suggestions on a mix of planes.
    Last edited by Dawn Patrol; 08-21-2017 at 23:27.

  10. #10

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    Depending on luck...

    Two Bf-109s versus two Spitfires is about as balanced as you can get for Battle of Britain. Despite the cannons on the Bf-109s, there are a bunch of "0"s in the C chits that is supposed to balance out over the long run. However, the luck of the draw can be cruel. Two Hurricanes vs two Bf-109s is a little tougher, but luck could be in your favor?

    The Bf-110 has good damage at close range, but it doesn't maneuver well. With 20 damage, it isn't able to take on two planes, despite the damage it can deal out. The Bristol Beaufighter is a literal shredder, and with 23 damage and a fast maneuver deck, it might be able to handle two Bf-109s. But, it won't be fun for the Bf-109 that is caught at close range.

    Balance is tough.

    Stukas are just targets, unfortunately. It doesn't matter what goes against them. If they carry bombs, they can only move at slow speed until they drop them, and on a big table, they don't fair well. I did a scenario with two Stukas escorted by four Bf-109s, RAF flew three Spitfires and three Hurricanes. Lots of damage on both sides, with the Stukas taking out the target, but not surviving. Some of the other planes were shot down or badly damaged in the fray.

    An He.111 bomber with two escorts, and four RAF fighters might work for balance. The two Hurricanes will need a full table to do enough damage to take one bomber out, and two Spitfires will have their hands full taking on the Bf-109s. That is about as balanced a scenario as I can see with the mix you plan.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  11. #11

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    Have you thought of flying a flight of spits or 'canes (3) from a sqn of your choice, and throw them into different missions.
    Pouncing or getting pounced on. Stopping the otherside getting to the other edge before a certain amount of rounds has expired (fuel). And that's without looking at bombers

    Carls missions could easily be set in Britain.

  12. #12

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    Have you thought of flying a flight of spits or 'canes (3) from a sqn of your choice, and throw them into different missions.
    Pouncing or getting pounced on. Stopping the otherside getting to the other edge before a certain amount of rounds has expired (fuel). And that's without looking at bombers

    Carls missions could easily be set in Britain.

    So model wise. Flesh out a sqn. Brits of 3. Me109 of 4. ( that's 7). Add a pair of stukas and maybe a pair of me110's. Ok that's 1 above your model list but you could try most missions. If you don't think you want just spits then get yourself 3 hurricanes. . 14 models in all.

  13. #13

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    Oh . That didn't edit??? Just reposted. Oops

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    Starter set (two Spits, two Me 109)
    2 Hawker Hurricane
    2 Stuka
    1 Heinkel 111
    1 Me Bf 110

    I figured that the interest and variety was more in the missions of the Germans, so get more of those at least initially. Different balance of planes? Keeping in mind that whatever I add takes away something else. Best first things to add as I go along?
    That is a good start - if adding, go for a second Bf110 next, then a second He111.

    Are you a modeller/painter?
    If so, try adding a Ju88 as a fast bomber; try a Boulton Paul Defiant as an arse-on fighter!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  15. #15

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    As Skafloc has already said, RAF should be in 3's for BoB, Luftwaffe fighter in pairs and bombers in 3's.

    When playing scenarios the RAF should always be at a numerical disadvantage even if that is just by one airframe. Obviously you have to "run what you've brung", but I would invest in at least 4x 109's and 3 111's which should be a core element. Against 3 spits and 3 hurricanes these would offer a "fair fight". Throwing in a single 110 to the mix and it gets far trickier for the RAF.

    If you're going to increase either side, favour the Luftwaffe, particularly with bombers (which can be left to autopilot on a straight course, (defending themselves) leaving the Axis players to concentrate on providing fighter cover.

    This is how I weight my demo games at cons.
    Last edited by Strangely Brown; 08-22-2017 at 06:15.

  16. #16

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    Hi Bruce. For a beginner in WWII, I think your initial choice is excellent assuming you can find a Heinkel and a 110.
    If you can't, get a third Hurricane and Stuka.
    If you are just starting in WGS, I would recommend flying one plane each until you get used to the card cycling.
    Above all, have fun, historical accuracy will arrive in time as you keep collecting.

    Lest we forget

  17. #17

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    For a bit of difference try getting the Zvezda JU88's. They are great, cheap and bases and cards easy to come by. (JU88A uses K(b) deck. Basically the K deck with reverse, 60, 90 and extreme sideslips removed.). Bases from Aerodrome Store or Litko.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  18. #18

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    One other notion: Most BoB fighter-v.-bomber missions weren't so much about "scoring kills", as "breaking up the attack" to minimize the damage on the ground; some sort of "morale" mechanic might be in order, plus a greater weight on "did the bomber hit the target".

  19. #19

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    Some things will simply have to wait for more money. Though now that I think about it, Strategicon is in a less than two weeks here in SoCal, and I have about fifty "dealer dollars" saved up and likely to get more, and at least one dealer will have Wings of Glory (even if it is just the starter set, that frees the online order up from that). Hmmmmm...

    Recalculating with the starter set presumed to be bought at the convention independent of my Miniature Market budget.
    1 Spit (+2 from set)
    3 Hurricane
    2 Me 109 (+2 from set)
    3 Heinkel 111

    Mental math...$126, about what I budgeted. While not the more versatile approach in plane mix, I have a basic starting point that I can add to in complete groups.

    Edit in: counting change in bowl. Oh hey, another $30!

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    Last edited by Dawn Patrol; 08-22-2017 at 19:01.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    Some things will simply have to wait for more money. Though now that I think about it, Strategicon is in a less than two weeks here in SoCal, and I have about fifty "dealer dollars" saved up and likely to get more, and at least one dealer will have Wings of Glory (even if it is just the starter set, that frees the online order up from that). Hmmmmm...

    Recalculating with the starter set presumed to be bought at the convention independent of my Miniature Market budget.
    1 Spit (+2 from set)
    3 Hurricane
    2 Me 109 (+2 from set)
    3 Heinkel 111

    Mental math...$126, about what I budgeted. While not the more versatile approach in plane mix, I have a basic starting point that I can add to in complete groups.

    Edit in: counting change in bowl. Oh hey, another $30!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    A very well considered and workable plan

    Stukas and Bf 110s can wait. Perhaps if other players are involved they could be encouraged to buy their own to add to the mix?

  21. #21

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post

    Normal tactic was for Hurricanes to hit bombers and spitfires the fighters, or was that the other way round. UKWingCo would know for sure.

    Neil
    No you got that right Neil.
    Spits for the Fighters!

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strangely Brown View Post
    As Skafloc has already said, RAF should be in 3's for BoB, Luftwaffe fighter in pairs and bombers in 3's.

    When playing scenarios the RAF should always be at a numerical disadvantage even if that is just by one airframe. Obviously you have to "run what you've brung", but I would invest in at least 4x 109's and 3 111's which should be a core element. Against 3 spits and 3 hurricanes these would offer a "fair fight". Throwing in a single 110 to the mix and it gets far trickier for the RAF.

    If you're going to increase either side, favour the Luftwaffe, particularly with bombers (which can be left to autopilot on a straight course, (defending themselves) leaving the Axis players to concentrate on providing fighter cover.

    This is how I weight my demo games at cons.
    As it stands for the moment, it will be difficult to get your hands on the He.111 H-3s (Splinter green planes). Unless you want to fly the He.111 H-5s in winter camo, or repaint them to splinter green for the Battle of Britain campaign. Either are good for the BoB Theatre, but the winter camo is definitely not period. The planes will play correctly, regardless.

    Being in California, there might be a store or two around that has some H-3s on a peg somewhere. That would be pretty lucky.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    As it stands for the moment, it will be difficult to get your hands on the He.111 H-3s (Splinter green planes). Unless you want to fly the He.111 H-5s in winter camo, or repaint them to splinter green for the Battle of Britain campaign. Either are good for the BoB Theatre, but the winter camo is definitely not period. The planes will play correctly, regardless.

    Being in California, there might be a store or two around that has some H-3s on a peg somewhere. That would be pretty lucky.
    I'll take what I can get and worry about appearances later!

  24. #24

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    Bruce,
    Your selection looks good from a purely gaming stand point.
    My BOB order was:
    Starter Set
    3 Hurricanes
    5 Spitfires
    3 Stukas
    4 109s

    Actually the Starter Set was a birthday present. And I am trying to make plans to purchase 2 more Spitfires and 3 Hurricanes.
    As far as getting an answer to your original question, most of these guys on here go for historical fights or recreating historical battles.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    ...Being in California, there might be a store or two around that has some H-3s on a peg somewhere. That would be pretty lucky.
    Got the BoB starter set at the convention (full price, but hey, literal wooden nickels was all I paid). No hard-to-find BoB planes there, but I did snag Goering's Fokker D.VII hiding behind a Warhawk.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    Got the BoB starter set at the convention (full price, but hey, literal wooden nickels was all I paid). No hard-to-find BoB planes there, but I did snag Goering's Fokker D.VII hiding behind a Warhawk.
    Should have gotten the Warhawk. All P-40s are hard to find. If you don't want it I guarantee you'll find someone who'd be willing to work a trade with you.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    Should have gotten the Warhawk. All P-40s are hard to find. If you don't want it I guarantee you'll find someone who'd be willing to work a trade with you.
    The convention is over, but if I feel like driving a bit, the actual store that had it has stuff hidden in the depth of its bowels from the seventies.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    The convention is over, but if I feel like driving a bit, the actual store that had it has stuff hidden in the depth of its bowels from the seventies.
    What's the name of the store?

  29. #29

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    Add some Dewoitine D.520 for the Battle of France as a prelude? Not familiar with French fighter formations.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    Add some Dewoitine D.520 for the Battle of France as a prelude? Not familiar with French fighter formations.
    Hi Bruce,

    I can help you out a little with the early war Armee del'Air formations.

    In 1939, the tactical unit was the "groupe" (group) composed of two or sometimes three "escadrilles" (squadrons). 2-3 "groupes" could be organised into an "escadre" (wing).

    Each "escadrille" would have 9-12 planes. They were used in different kinds of "patrouilles" (flights), often depending on how many operational aircraft were available:
    - "Patrouille simple" = 3 planes
    - "Patrouille simple légčre" = 2 planes
    - "Patrouille double" = 6 planes
    - "Patrouille double légčre" = 4 planes
    - "Patrouille triple" = 9 planes
    - "Patrouille triple légčre" = 6 planes

  31. #31

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    Thanks. Think I'll get four then, and can cover several options that way.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    Thanks. Think I'll get four then, and can cover several options that way.
    Good plan

  33. #33

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    And...the final tally (well, within the opening batch).
    ME 109 x 4
    Spitfire x 3
    Hurricane x 3
    Heinkel x 3 (sigh, kinda winterized, but I got what I could while it was still available)
    Beaufighter x 1
    ME Bf.110 x 1 (Schupp, in the mail still)
    Dewoitine D.520 x 4
    Edit in: added the Ju-87 x 3 and a second Schupp Me Bf.110

    I gave up the three Stukas I had intended to get for the Dewoitines. Probably a good thing, even though I have to get some French decals (the Italian pilot, which doesn't fit in as well), because the day after I got these, Miniature Market finally sold out for forever. Oh, and my old Wings of War version of the game, which I recently found and which prompted all this.

    My own personal recommendation for anyone stumbling onto this thread at a later date trying to figure out what to buy, is if you are on a limited budget is to get the minimums to run the "Advanced Scenarios" in the BoB game rather than aim for historical formations. Which would be:

    Heinkel x 2
    Hurricanes x 3
    Stuka x 1 (variant would require another Stuka and a third Me 109 and works with the Hurricanes above)
    Beaufighter (can be varianted out in favor of Hurricanes)
    Fiat Cr.42 x 2 (or five in the variant)

    So you could play all the scenarios in the BoB set with as few as eight planes, and only six if you want to skip the Italian biplanes (I am figuring on Battle of France, so will eventually add some).
    Last edited by Dawn Patrol; 10-13-2017 at 08:23.

  34. #34

    Thumbs up

    Nice collection Bruce but it would be good to grab a couple of Stukas when you can.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    Should have gotten the Warhawk. All P-40s are hard to find. If you don't want it I guarantee you'll find someone who'd be willing to work a trade with you.
    ...months later at the the next convention down the line...not only was the Warhawk still there, the dealer had two. Now I am up to three - not that I have any use for them at the moment (beyond I like Warhawks).

  36. #36

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    Nice find on the Warhawks! They are one of the few older planes I still look out for. Reading this late I am glad you decide on the Beaufighter. With the original list, only including Spitfires and Hurricanes from the British side would get old faster than the more diverse German airplanes you were getting. Are you enjoying WGS so far?



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