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Thread: OTT BE Mission 14: A Hard Day's Night - 21st May 1918 - by teaticket

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    Default OTT BE Mission 14: A Hard Day's Night - 21st May 1918 - by teaticket

    Near the end of May of 1918 the enemy staged a night bombing raid deep behind your lines. By the time the bombers were returning home, local squadrons had been alerted, planes sent aloft to intercept along the reported home bound route. Your squadron has sent three planes aloft into the darkness to try to exact some revenge on the raiding force. Stragglers are found and you go in for the attack!

    Historically some night bombing activities in May were on the 19th, 38 Gothas and 3 Giants took off for London, on the 21st and 22nd Gothas bombed Paris. Entente night raids behind German lines took place on the 21st, 22nd, 28th, 29th, 30th and 31st of May. (I’m sure there were more.)

    The easy part, The Mission
    The bomber force’s task is to fly across three matts to reach safety. A bomber is considered safe when the peg is off the playing surface.
    Your mission is to not let the bombers return home.

    Forces
    The enemy AI will fly two bombers. Preferably one Caproni, Handley Page, Gotha or Staaken and one two seater of your choice. If the 2 seater is as fast as any of your scouts, remove one of the straights from it’s movement deck in addition to the cards mentioned below in the bomber movement rules.

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    Your force will have three scouts. You will fly one, AI the other two. You can use any available scouts.

    Set Up

    The playing surface will be 3 matts joining along their long edges. If you don't have room for 3 matts you will have to remove the first after the planes have left the first matt and add in the third. Diceslinger does a nice job with photos showing the 'slide' in mission 18 of the Early Doors Campaign.

    The bombers will start ½ a measure on either side off of the center along a matt’s long edge, one with it’s rear base edge abutted to the matt edge., the other will start 1 full measure from the map edge.
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    Your force will start 1 ½ measures from the lead bomber positioned randomly with a d6. Clockwise from the left are vectors 1-6.

    Position rolled is for the center scout. Keep scouts ½ measure apart and 1 ½ measure away from nearest bomber placing them parallel to the board edge.

    Facing for your AI planes is also random, 1-2, place two cards in front of the lead bomber, the front center of the lead card is where the AI scouts point to. 3-4 = place one card, point AI scouts to front center. 5-6 = aim the AI scouts at the lead bomber's peg.

    The plane you control can have any facing.
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    In the set up example photo I rolled to see which bomber was in the lead and left or right of center. I then rolled for the interceptor force location(5), then facing(3). Albatros is controlled so can have any facing.


    Victory conditions

    To win you must shoot down both bombers.
    Knocking one down is a draw.
    If they both escape your superiors will be very irritated. (and you lose)

    Night bomber movement

    Whatever bombers you use, remove all but 1 turn in each direction, remove Immelmann card if available, remove the dive card. Place these in the removed pile. Put one of each turn at the top as you might need these.

    Shuffle the remaining deck and draw a card when needed to move the bomber. Place the used card in a discard pile that will be used again. When all cards have been used reshuffle the deck and go through it again, repeat as necessary.

    When drawing the climb card if not using altitude or not wanting to climb, treat it as a stall. If using altitude, use the stalls and straights for climbing and diving as you see fit.
    If the bomber moves multiple stalls in a row, so be it. It will not incur damage for an illegal maneuver. Write it off as to the difficulty of keeping visual contact during night flying.

    At any time the bomber is to move and is within 1 measure stick from a side edge, instead of drawing the top card from it’s shuffled deck, use one of the removed turns that will face the bomber away from that edge. After moving the bomber place this turn card back in the removed pile. Don’t let the bombers fly close to a side edge.

    If a bomber is not facing directly towards it’s exit edge and it’s next movement card would have it turn away further from it’s destination edge, place this turn card in the discard pile and play the next card.


    The not so easy part, Night Rules Get the latest version of Night Fighting 'HERE' The latest markers 'HERE' These are in the files-House Rules

    Night Rules for Wings of Glory WWI

    Before planes can fire at each other they first must spot the enemy.

    Spotting is done just before the firing phase on each maneuver card played. You do not have to have a plane in your firing arc to spot. You can attempt to spot any unspotted plane within close range.

    Attempts to spot a plane are done only at close range. For each spotting attempt, draw a ‘A’ card. On any non-special damage card, the plane is spotted. On any card with special damage or Boom, there might be a plane right in front of you but you just don’t see it! (reshuffle the Boom back into the deck!)

    If a plane spots another, place a spotted ‘eye#’ counter on the plane that ‘sees’ the other and a ‘Spotlight#’ counter on the plane that is seen, with matching #s to help keep track of who sees who. As long as close range is maintained, visual contact will be kept even if there is no firing. If close range is not maintained, visual contact will be lost and the ‘Eye’ and ‘Spotlight’ counters removed.

    When a plane is spotted, place a ‘Spotlight#’ counter on it. Any other planes at close range that spot it will receive a corresponding ‘Eye#’ counter.

    If any shots are taken by any plane, place a ‘Spotlight ALL’ on the planes that fired after all planes have fired. (Keep any other spotting/spotted counters that still apply.) It is now considered spotted by everyone for the next maneuver card. Any planes at close range when it fired will also acquire ‘eye’ and the firing plane ‘spotlight’ counters. (These are needed because if any ‘SpotlightALL’ plane does not fire and removes the ‘SpotlightALL’ counter, any plane that stays at close range will still see it.)

    At the end of a movement phase, any plane that has a ‘SpotlightALL’ counter on it and moves into close range will acquire a ‘Spotlight#’ while those that are now close to it get the ‘Eye#’.

    Firing on an enemy plane that was just spotted at close range without a ‘SpotlightALL’ already on it is treated as a long range shot. If you have visual contact on a plane without a ‘SpotlightALL’ for more than one maneuver card at close range, you will fire normally. (two damage cards at same altitude)

    Firing at planes that do not have a ‘Spotlight ALL’ counter on them can only be targeted at close range if they have been spotted.

    Firing at planes that have ‘SpotlightALL’ counters is done at normal full range and damage. As the enemy plane was seen to fire on the previous card this will negate the need for first fire at short range.

    When a plane does not fire in a fire phase, remove it’s ‘Spotlight ALL’ counter at the end of the firing phase.

    If an AI airplane has a shot at an enemy plane, it must be taken. Your controlled plane does not have to shoot.

    A plane on fire is spotted by everyone, place a ‘spotlight ALL’ counter on it.

    So in the normal sequence of the game one will after movement, check for any new spotting for planes coming into close range of planes without a 'SpotlightALL' counter. Also planes that moved out of close range and do not have a 'SpotlightALL' will lose any other 'Spotlight's on it. (with corresponding 'Eye's also removed)
    After the shooting phase, any plane that fires will acquire a 'SpotlightALL' counter. Any planes in close range to a plane that fired will acquire 'Eye' counters if they do not already have them, with the firing plane also receiving a corresponding 'Spotlight'.

    Blind Spot
    As this is night spotting, you are not allowed to sneak up and get into a blind spot behind the enemy with no ‘SpotlightALL’ that easy…you will have to achieve that after spotting. For first visual contact per plane, you are not considered to be in a blind spot. If first visual contact has you in the enemy’s blind spot, it can still shoot you if it spotted you, regardless of altitude. The blind spot is then treated normally if contact is kept. If a plane was spotted because it shot, (has a spotted ‘ALL’ counter) the blind spot is treated normally. Once visual contact has been lost, the spotting process will start over as well as the blind spot.



    Spotting Example +

    Turn X
    4 planes, HP = Handley Page bomber, 1, 2 and 3 = German scouts.
    After movement…
    1 is at close range and right behind and has the bomber in it’s firing arc.
    2 is at close range but to the left of the HP flying parallel, does not have the bomber in it’s gunsights.
    3 is just beyond long range but closing in.

    HP attempts to spot 1 drawing a 0 and succeeds. Place the ‘Eye1’ counter on the HP and a ‘Spotlight1’ counter on 1.
    1 attempts but draws a 5 pilot wound and does not spot the bomber.
    HP attempts to spot 2 drawing a 2 and spots 2. Place the ‘Eye2’ on the HP and the ‘Spotlight2’ on 2.
    2 attempts and draws a 0 gun jam and does not spot the bomber.
    3 is out of range so no attempt at spotting.
    Photo after moving and spotting.
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    Even though 1 would normally be in the HP’s blind spot, the HP gets to shoot at 1 as this is first firing immediately after spotting. The HP draws a 2 damage on 1. As the HP fired, place a ‘Spotlight ALL’ counter on it. As 1 and 2 are at close range and the HP fired, place an ‘Eye3’ on 1 and 2 and ‘Spotlight’ 3 on the HP.
    At this point 1, 2 and 3 see the HP. The HP sees 1 and 2.
    PHOTO after shooting
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    Turn X +1

    The HP moves forward. 1 moves forward staying behind the HP at close range. 2 side slips left and is now at long range, still parallel to the HP. Remove 2’s ‘Spotlight2’ and the Gotha removes it’s ‘Eye2’.
    3 closes in a bit and gets into long range with the HP in it’s arc.
    Photo after moving and spotting.
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    The HP now cannot fire at 1 as it is in the blind spot. The HP does not see 2 and 3 as both are at long range and do not have ‘SpotlightALL’ counters on them. 2 removes it’s ‘Spotlight2’ and the HP removes it’s ‘Eye2’. 1 fires drawing 2 cards. 3 fires drawing 1 card. Both 1 and 3 place “SpotlightALL’ counters on them as they have fired. After all firing is done, the HP removes it’s ‘SpotlightALL’ counter as it did not fire this phase. 3 does not get an ‘Eye’ counter as it is at long range.
    At this point the HP sees 1 and 3, 2 and 3 do not see the HP while the HP does not see 2.
    PHOTO after shooting
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    Turn X +2

    The HP stalls. 1 goes straight and overlaps the rear of the HP base. 2 turns right and gets to close range. Spotting attempt by the HP at 2 draws a 2 fire and it fails to spot 2. 2 draws a 0 and spots the HP, placing an ‘Eye3’ on 2. 3 stalls and stays at long range.
    Photo after moving
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    1 cannot fire as it is overlapping. (If using altitude, the HP may be able to fire at 1. If using the optional collision rules there is a possible collision as the front corners of 1’s base are overlapping the HP’s base.) 2 fires with 1 card on the HP. The HP fires on 3 long range drawing 1 card. 3 cannot fire as it is at long range and had lost visual contact when the HP did not fire last firing phase.
    After all firing is done, 1 and 3 removes their ‘SpotlightALL’ counters as they did not fire. The HP and 2 get ‘SpotlightALL’ counters. The HP also gets an ‘Eye4’ and 2 a ’Spotlight4’.
    At this point the HP sees 1 and 2. 1, 2 and 3 see the HP.
    Photo after shooting.
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    Night Rules Summary (I'm repeating myself here)

    Planes must be within close range to attempt to acquire visual contact on planes that have not fired previously. (i.e. no SpotlightALL) If spotting attempts are successful, place ‘Eye#’ and corresponding ’Spotlight#’ counters on the planes involved before the shooting phase.

    Planes within close range will keep their corresponding ‘Eye’ and ‘Spotlight’ counters even if neither has a ‘SpotlightALL’ counter on it. As long as you keep in close range of a spotted plane you will maintain visual contact.

    Before the firing phase, a plane with any ‘Spotlight#’ but no ‘SpotlightALL’ counters, that has moved out of close range, removes any ‘Spotlight#’ counters on it and corresponding ‘Eye#’ counters.

    At the end of the shooting phase in which a plane shoots it receives a “SpotlightALL’ counter and any other planes within close range receive the ‘Eye’ while this shooting plane gets corresponding ‘Spotlight’ counters. (if it doesn’t already have them)

    Any plane with a ‘SpotlightALL’ counter will remove it at the end of a shooting phase if it did not fire.

    Planes on fire always have a ‘SpotlightALL’ counter on it. (regardless of altitude difference)

    Planes cannot fire on a plane that does not have a ‘SpotlightALL’ or ‘Spotlight” counter that it does not have a corresponding ‘Eye#’ counter for.

    Visual contact rules ignore differences in altitude of 1 level. Spotting is always measured in the normal half and full measure stick distances. Planes that are 2 or more levels apart cannot attempt to spot but will see planes with “SpotlightALL’ counters on them.

    Here are the spotting markers you'll need. For this game you'll need to have four each of the Eyes 1-5 and their Spotlights 1-5, and 5 Spotlight 'ALL' markers. There are many more than you need but I am running a larger night battle at an upcoming show so put them all on one page. Maybe they'll come in handy for others.

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    Optional rules


    Collisions

    Collisions at night can happen at a higher rate as visibility is restricted. Collisions between at least one unspotted plane and any other plane will happen when there is a peg / base overlap as usual, but also when 2 corners of a base on one of the planes involved overlaps the other’s base. It’s important to know where the enemy and friendly planes are to lessen the chances of a collision.
    Spotting for friendly planes must be done as well as enemy. Do this for both sides.


    Blinded by Muzzle Flash

    If a firing plane is not fitted with guns that are shielded from the firer, (i.e., comic, Lewis on upper wing...) it will lose visual contact if you fire and the enemy target plane did not fire in the same phase. ( i.e., if you fire and there is no shooting at all by the targeted enemy plane, you will have to remove your 'Eye#' and reacquire visual contact.)


    Bright Moon Light

    If your mission is under a bright moon and clear skies it will be easier to keep your eye on the planes around you once you have spotted them. (you can roll randomly for it or set the Moon phase and weather as you see fit.)

    Spotting is now attempted at long range instead of close.

    Visual contact is maintained out to long range instead of close range even if no firing is witnessed.

    Crash Modifier:
    For this mission - and any other in the dark:
    Crashing a cumulative -1


    Suggestion… I strongly suggest you fly 4-5 turns trying out the night rules before you fly the mission as a spotting exercise. Place 2-3 planes in close range with another 2 at or just beyond long range and closing in. Reading it sounds more difficult that it is. Ok, I have playtested the bejesus out of this so I think they are not difficult, but I have a lot of practice.
    I also suggest if you use altitude have the bombers fly across 4 matts as it will be more difficult to get a shot at them.

    I have read lots of comments about the lack of night rules and decided to give a shot at it. I think what I've come up with works out quite nicely. I hope you folks enjoy it.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 11-19-2017 at 09:24. Reason: Crash Roll Modifier added

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    Suggestion… I strongly suggest you fly 4-5 turns trying out the night rules before you fly the mission as a spotting exercise. Place 2-3 planes in close range with another 2 at or just beyond long range and closing in. Reading it sounds more difficult that it is.
    I have read it, printed it and read it again.
    I will definitely take you up on your suggestion, Peter.

    This looks really interesting and I hope I am up to your challenge.

  3. #3

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    This looks great Peter, took me a while to get my head around the random facing bit but it is still early here ! I got it now. I will get into this at the end of the month when I get home from my hols.
    For now I have put the nominal date of May 21st on it but players can select the date they prefer from those given by your research.
    Last edited by flash; 07-31-2017 at 23:26.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

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    Great mission Peter. The German Navy had a Marineflieger nghtfighting unit equipped with Halberstadt CL.IIs, any objections to giving my two seater lads a run?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Great mission Peter. The German Navy had a Marineflieger nghtfighting unit equipped with Halberstadt CL.IIs, any objections to giving my two seater lads a run?
    I didn't try it flying 2 seaters. It will be interesting to see how it turns out with them so go for it. You'll have to judge during the battle if you need the 4th matt or no, assuming you'll use altitude. I say this as having 2 seaters give you a bit more firing opportunities. Maybe you should play the Muzzle Flash optional rule?
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-01-2017 at 12:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I have read it, printed it and read it again.
    I will definitely take you up on your suggestion, Peter.

    This looks really interesting and I hope I am up to your challenge.
    As I said, reading it may look intimidating but after flying for a few turns it will fall into place and isn't difficult at all.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    This looks great Peter, took me a while to get my head around the random facing bit but it is still early here ! I got it now. I will get into this at the end of the month when I get home from my hols.
    For now I have put the nominal date of May 21st on it but players can select the date they prefer from those given by your research.
    Enjoy your time away Dave. We'll be waiting for your AAR when you return.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I didn't try it flying 2 seaters. It will be interesting to see how it turns out with them so go for it. You'll have to judge during the battle if you need the 4th matt or no, assuming you'll use altitude.
    I always use altitude so I suppose I better get the 'big' table out!

    Thanks.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Enjoy your time away Dave. We'll be waiting for your AAR when you return.
    Might be last knocking's of August before that happens - or even September !

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    OK I think I've got it. Your example with photos was a great help. Shall run a trial as suggested - good idea that. Unlike Dave, I haven't quite got my head around the random direction bit when setting up, but I've only read it through once. I'll get there in the end. Interesting mission Peter. thanks. Likely to be running late as haven't written AAR for thirteen yet, but hopefully by mid month I'll have cracked this one too.

    Have a fun holiday Dave

  11. #11

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Might be last knocking's of August before that happens - or even September !
    Yeah that looks the same for me as I wont be back home until after mid August & got lots of Tractor & Machinery Club stuff coming up like AGM & pre Rally meetings etc.

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    Ok, I see that the random set up direction for our scouts isn't clear. I'll fix that now.

    Should be on a 1-2, place two cards in front of the lead bomber, the front center of the lead card is where the AI scouts point to. 3-4 = place one card. 5-6 = just aim the AI scouts at the lead bomber's peg.

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    Summer I find a tough time keeping up. Lots to do in the garden under the wifey's supervision!

    Get to it when you can gentlemen. I'll try to get mine in this weekend so you can have more spotting examples.

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    I added this to the spotting rules, maybe it will help as it mentions where in the normal turn sequence spotting is done.

    So in the normal sequence of the game one will after movement, check for any new spotting for planes coming into close range of planes without a 'SpotlightALL' counter. Also planes that moved out of close range and do not have a 'SpotlightALL' will lose any other 'Spotlight's on it. (with corresponding 'Eye's also removed)
    After the shooting phase, any plane that fires will acquire a 'SpotlightALL' counter. Any planes in close range to a plane that fired will acquire 'Eye' counters if they do not already have them, with the firing plane also receiving a corresponding 'Spotlight'.

    Also see the clearer explanation of interceptor set up facing.

    As Dave already posted the scenario on the campaign page, check the original BRF posting for these latest edits.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-02-2017 at 09:02.

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    Updates added Peter, as I told you in my PM I managed to find a window to play this and it went pretty well - other than my 'three blind mice' !!
    The only bit I think I may have got wrong is the first part of this:
    Firing on an enemy plane that was just spotted at close range without a ‘SpotlightALL’ already on it is treated as a long range shot. If you have visual contact on a plane without a ‘SpotlightALL’ for more than one maneuver card at close range, you will fire normally. (two damage cards at same altitude)
    if I saw 'em i gave 'em the beans !
    I also had to make a slight accommodation for shooting peg to peg - I spotted peg to base but fired peg to peg so sometimes I could spot but only get a long range shot in, though most were close range bursts as it worked out. If I hadn't have done that I may not have seen anything at all !
    Are you going to write these up and stick them in the files section ?

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Updates added Peter, as I told you in my PM I managed to find a window to play this and it went pretty well - other than my 'three blind mice' !!
    The only bit I think I may have got wrong is the first part of this:

    if I saw 'em i gave 'em the beans !
    I also had to make a slight accommodation for shooting peg to peg - I spotted peg to base but fired peg to peg so sometimes I could spot but only get a long range shot in, though most were close range bursts as it worked out. If I hadn't have done that I may not have seen anything at all !
    Are you going to write these up and stick them in the files section ?
    Thanks for adding the updates.

    I figured when you spotted a plane it would be either a surprise or you would not have an easy time reacting to get off a good shot. So I thought first shot when spotting was only 1 card.

    I will post them in the files section after we play through this. I'd like to have them tested by the OTT group before it goes out to the public. If there are any problems anyone finds I'd like to fix them first. After seeing everyone's comments I will give them a go over and maybe be able to make it all cleaner.

    So what do you think after one try at it?
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-02-2017 at 12:18.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    ....So what do you think after one try at it?
    Yeah, it was good, lost sight of each other almost immediately so had to reacquire quite a few times - hence giving them the beans on first sight I suppose; totally missed that before or didn't understand it - the searchlight all was a saviour as that allowed my scouts to get a lock on for a direction to head in otherwise I wondered how we dealt with lost or no contacts ? I decided pretty quickly that if I saw nothing I'd keep within the boundaries and wend my way up & across the table in hope of tripping over something.
    As you say, let the chaps have a play, refine it and it should be good to go. i will try to get the AAR done asap.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

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    Ah, something obvious to me that I didn't write down! Fly as normal, i.e. use the regular heading procedure to approach the enemy. You just can't shoot until you can see them.

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    Didn't occur to me straight away so opted for zig zagging up the table if it came to it - it didn't in the end but had to have something ready just in case.
    Something else I just thought of is penalties for Crashing & E&E in the dark ?! -1 for each perhaps ? or maybe -2 for each ?
    What do you think ?

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  20. #20

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    set up direction for our scouts
    That's now quite clear. Thanks for the update. Shall get my head around the rest of the updates later. Cheers for the mo.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Didn't occur to me straight away so opted for zig zagging up the table if it came to it - it didn't in the end but had to have something ready just in case.
    Something else I just thought of is penalties for Crashing & E&E in the dark ?! -1 for each perhaps ? or maybe -2 for each ?
    What do you think ?
    Crashing definitely a -?. E&E probably much easier to get away if you survive the crash,a +2?

  22. #22

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    I would say Crashing a cumulative -1
    and Escape/Evasion +2

    Harder to crash "safely" if you can't see
    and easier to hide when they can't see you.

  23. #23

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I would say Crashing a cumulative -1
    and Escape/Evasion +2

    Harder to crash "safely" if you can't see
    and easier to hide when they can't see you.
    That sounds right Peter!

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    Uncle says:

    For this mission - and any other in the dark:
    Crashing a cumulative -1

    and nothing for Escape/Evasion - reason being that its not dark forever and positives would anull being BEL, in SEA, WIA, EXP, FLM and that cannot be right !

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Historically some night bombing activities in May were on the 19th, 38 Gothas and 3 Giants took off for London, on the 21st and 22nd Gothas bombed Paris. Entente night raids behind German lines took place on the 21st, 22nd, 28th, 29th, 30th and 31st of May. (I’m sure there were more.)

    Bright Moon Light

    If your mission is under a bright moon and clear skies it will be easier to keep your eye on the planes around you once you have spotted them. (you can roll randomly for it or set the Moon phase and weather as you see fit.)

    Spotting is now attempted at long range instead of close.

    Visual contact is maintained out to long range instead of close range even if no firing is witnessed.
    I did some homework on the phases of the moon over northern France and Belgium in May 1918, and discovered there was a reason why there were so many missions flown between 21 - 31 May - the full moon was on 26 May. Lunar illumination for those dates went from 84.7% on 21 May to a peak of 100% on 26 May, then back down to 72% on 31 May. Lunar illumination was over 90% from 22 May to 28 May.

    I would suggest that if you set your missions between those dates the use of the bright moonlight rules would be very appropriate.

    Source data - https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/bel...th=5&year=1918

  26. #26

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    Yes, on the 21st of May 1918 there was a waxing gibbous moon.(I did a little homework myself as I wrote up my AAR; Posting later today as I have to get all the spotting explanations correct.) But a bright moon does not automatically mean clear sailing. Cloud conditions also come into play. Cloud conditions over head at the Aerodrome may not be the same as 20 miles away and can change quickly depending on the weather.

    Bright moonlight conditions were not used in my testing of this scenario. It will definitely give the interceptors an advantage in my opinion. It will be interesting to see the results if you use altitude, 4 mats and bright moonlight conditions. Maybe to offset the bright moonlight it would be back to 3 mats?
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-06-2017 at 07:27.

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    Just a question on altitude. A common tactic for nightfighters was to fly under the bombers to see them silouhetted against the cloud cover or the lighter sky. But the rules say we can't spot at long range. Any 'illumination' on this point? Perhaps aircraft at 1 altitude level difference but within 1/2 ruler separation can attempt to spot?

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    Another question do you check to spot friendly aircraft in order to plan evasive manouevres to avoid collisions?

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Another question do you check to spot friendly aircraft in order to plan evasive manouevres to avoid collisions?
    Rest, stand clear - found the answer in the optional rules section under collisions.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Just a question on altitude. A common tactic for nightfighters was to fly under the bombers to see them silouhetted against the cloud cover or the lighter sky. But the rules say we can't spot at long range. Any 'illumination' on this point? Perhaps aircraft at 1 altitude level difference but within 1/2 ruler separation can attempt to spot?

    "Visual contact rules ignore differences in altitude of 1 level. Spotting is always measured in the normal half and full measure stick distances. Planes that are 2 or more levels apart cannot attempt to spot but will see planes with “SpotlightALL’ counters on them."


    Above is 2nd paragraph above the counters. (Had it covered!)

    Spotting ignores an altitude difference of 1 level. Spot the same for a plane at 1 level different altitude. Shooting is treated the same as normal rules. So a plane that spots another by drawing a successful card at 1 level difference can shoot if in arc. The tactic you mention is still valid.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    "Visual contact rules ignore differences in altitude of 1 level. Spotting is always measured in the normal half and full measure stick distances. Planes that are 2 or more levels apart cannot attempt to spot but will see planes with “SpotlightALL’ counters on them."


    Above is 2nd paragraph above the counters. (Had it covered!)

    Spotting ignores an altitude difference of 1 level. Spot the same for a plane at 1 level different altitude. Shooting is treated the same as normal rules. So a plane that spots another by drawing a successful card at 1 level difference can shoot if in arc. The tactic you mention is still valid.
    I should have read that again, sorry Peter. I am about half way through - the first few turns were a little laborious but once you have them down the night rules flow well.

    It also helps when you set a bomber on fire!!!!

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    the first few turns were a little laborious but once you have them down the night rules flow well.
    Thats why I suggested if you had the time to run through a few turns of practice spotting. After a few turns it gets much easier. By the end of the game you'll have it down.

    Setting a bomber ablaze is the best way to have all your planes find it!
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-15-2017 at 15:49.

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    Well this is the first chance I have had to look at the mission Peter and it certainly looks to be a show stopper. Like the rest of you august is a busy time so it might be late in the month before I play it


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

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    Played my "trial run" today.
    Decided to fly as Entente vs Central since it was just for grins ...


    3 N28 vs a Gotha and a Hannover

    9 turns.
    In the final phase the Gotha's peg was just off the map.
    [Technically I suppose he was "safe"]
    Having drawn a BOOM earlier - which I counted as 14- he was at 26 damage of 27.
    I let my N28 (whose guns had just been unjammed) take a final shot ...

    Gun Jam!

    and a 1

    Down it went!

    The Hannover had been downed at about the halfway mark, after being set on fire.
    One of the N28s was also set on fire and downed.

    I think the Excel sheet I made to help keep track of everything helped.
    At first I thought the Close Range Spotting was making it too difficult (and sooooo frustrating to be in a good shooting spot)
    but, in the end, I suppose it all worked out.

    Big thumbs up to your spotting methods, Peter.


    Question (in case it comes up):
    Should the opposing team be allowed that final shot when the target has only just exited the map?

    I also wonder about my chances if I fly against an HP o/400 in the "real" one ....

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    Pete, if by chance the peg gets off the map, it has exited and cannot be shot at.

    Close range for spotting, it is nighttime after all. Maybe with more bombers the bright moon could be used as that will make spotting a lot easier. I don't want this to be too easy!

    Good luck with the real run at it.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-13-2017 at 17:59.

  36. #36

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    Well mine is done.

    I think i should have used this.

    Bright Moon Light

    If your mission is under a bright moon and clear skies it will be easier to keep your eye on the planes around you once you have spotted them. (you can roll randomly for it or set the Moon phase and weather as you see fit.)

    Spotting is now attempted at long range instead of close.

    Visual contact is maintained out to long range instead of close range even if no firing is witnessed.
    Over in 7 turns - I think I would have had more chances if it was 4 maps instead of 3 or had used the Bright Moon option.
    Forgot about the extra -1 for darkness - better recheck my C&W results ...

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    I've posted a cleaned up and better organized version of Night Fighting Rules for Wings of Glory WWI in the WWI House Rules Forum.

    There is a change to spotting larger planes, making it a bit easier to spot them. To be fair, all you OTTrs that have yet to play out Mission 14, please stick with the original non-special damage / special damage for spotting all planes.

    What do you think? Any concerns or other things to consider? I have purposely tried to keep this simple and want to keep it simple.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-27-2017 at 18:25.

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    Looks good Peter, the only rule I don't like is the 'blind spot rule', if you're lucky enough to come upon the target in that position you should reap the benefit, rather than the target plane getting a shot where he cannot physically see or shoot under normal circumstances.
    I have added a link to your thread to Mission 14 so people can check out the AAR if they wish to to see how the games play.
    Last edited by flash; 08-28-2017 at 00:15.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

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    New version of rules looks good to me. Thanks, Peter, for posting them and I look forward to seeing the WW2 version as well

    the only rule I don't like is the 'blind spot rule'
    Not sure what I think of the "Blind Spot" Rule. Seems fair enough to apply the restriction/rule to any aircraft controlled by a player. But, perhaps questionable for an AI controlled aircraft. After all it is hard enough for the latter to make any sort of contact, and if they do, pretty random where they end up. So arriving at a blind spot would seem ok to me under those circumstances. I agree with Dave in that case.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Looks good Peter, the only rule I don't like is the 'blind spot rule', if you're lucky enough to come upon the target in that position you should reap the benefit, rather than the target plane getting a shot where he cannot physically see or shoot under normal circumstances.
    I have added a link to your thread to Mission 14 so people can check out the AAR if they wish to to see how the games play.
    My thinking on the Blind Spot rule is I think one would be quite lucky to stumble upon an enemy plane and when you find it be in the blind spot. Stumbling on it in the dark at the correct altitude to be in the blind spot to me seems a bit easy. I see it this way, as you are flying around looking for that enemy you are sure is up here somewhere, on the turn you do find it you don't have the time to get off a great shot.

    AI planes have to shoot but your controlled plane does not. You could get the full 2 card damage on your first shot if you spot the bomber and wait one more movement card before shoot.

    This thought came from the solo playing side. You know the enemy bomber is making for home so getting behind it is rather easy. The chance of spotting smaller planes is 60%, I changed the odds for spotting larger planes to 71%. Now stumbling on the blind spot is a bit safer but not guaranteed. Once the shooting starts the blind spot is easier to get into if the bomber is shooting. I know it is not that it is easy to begin with but I think this should be a challenge.

    Thanks for putting in the link.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-28-2017 at 06:21.

  42. #42

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    One problem I had was, my planes were within a ruler but not within a half ruler, so I could not spot them.
    What if you changed the first contact to being able to spot at a ruler length but not fire on that turn. After the first contact you can fire normally.

  43. #43

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    I think your game was an anomaly. I play tested this scenario many many times and never had trouble having all AI planes have several spotting opportunities over 3 game mats. With the plane I controlled I usually went after the lead bomber and always found it. I didn't always shoot it down but did spot it. The AI scouts, depending on the starting position and facing, always spotted at least one if not both of the planes.

    I made these rules for overall night missions. The game has lacked these and the only one I saw I wasn't happy with how it was done. I'm sure there are a few attempts at night rules I haven't seen. This is just my attempt to make night fighting possible. The OTT BE Mission 14 used the rules as written but that is only my scenario. You can do whatever you please with this rules set. Most people play Wings differently from everyone else. Look at all the altitude rules that people have come up with. Pick and choose what you like and play the way that makes you happy.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    My thinking on the Blind Spot rule is I think one would be quite lucky to stumble upon an enemy plane and when you find it be in the blind spot.
    Precisely my point, it won't happen often but when it does it seems a bit harsh that the enemy could get a free shot on you when in normal circumstances he wouldn't because he can't see enough of you to get a bead on you.
    Many night fighters used to look up to see if they could spot the EA against the lighter night sky and many of these machines that were equipped to fire upwards, they expected to come up from under the target; should they make the blindspot they shouldn't be punished for it is all I'm thinking. They're likely only going to get one card of damage on the target anyway and you will only get a second pop on the next phase if the target's still in arc, you've not overrun it, or, collided with it !

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

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    But we are not flying blind as in the real world. We know exactly where the target plane is and can maneuver to tail it with the plane you control. Should every AI pilot that good? I don't think so. The best pilot of the flight is you're controlled plane and you have the option not to shoot and wait to get a normal shot on the next card.

    On a dark night you don't think a rear gunner could get the jump on a plane looking for him?

    If you look at the cleaned up version of Night Fighting rules I posted you will find on the bright moon option you ignore this part that you don't like.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    ...On a dark night you don't think a rear gunner could get the jump on a plane looking for him?
    Not through a part of the plane he can't see or shoot through I don't !

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    But we are not flying blind as in the real world. We know exactly where the target plane is and can maneuver to tail it with the plane you control.
    That's where I went wrong then - I flew all the planes on AI until contact was made then took control of mine until it lost visual then vectored it onto the last sighting with the AI to try and pick up the visual once more. I wouldn't vector my own machine onto target - that isn't flying blind to me.
    Worry not, I'll play it as I like it 'cos it works for me.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Not through a part of the plane he can't see or shoot through I don't !


    That's where I went wrong then - I flew all the planes on AI until contact was made then took control of mine until it lost visual then vectored it onto the last sighting with the AI to try and pick up the visual once more. I wouldn't vector my own machine onto target - that isn't flying blind to me.
    Worry not, I'll play it as I like it 'cos it works for me.
    I didn't want the bombers to always be the ones to take the first hit since you could clearly get in the blind spot of a plane you don't even know is there. I would think a bomber could turn a little to get off a shot at an incoming unsuspecting scout if it was spotted coming in. This only happens if the bomber spots the scout. If the scout spots the bomber and is not seen, the scout fires and from then on firing is normal, blind spot is normal.

    Flying totally blind to find the targets would be silly to me. There would be way too much luck in even having a chance to spot an enemy. I didn't want to waste anyone's time setting up a game and have no sightings! To make it more realistic I'm sure it would be much more difficult than I have made it. This is not an easy thing to model in this game system. I took a shot at it and feel I found a game-able solution. As in all rules, everyone is free to play it the way they prefer making any changes to their taste.

    The new version also has the chances of spotting larger planes increased compared to spotting a smaller plane.

    I'll see how this goes in a few weeks with multi-players when I run a game with several Gothas returning from a mission attacked by the Home Defense Force. The Gothas will be running for their lives playing hide and seek against a larger number of player controlled angry British scouts!
    Last edited by Teaticket; 08-29-2017 at 17:06.

  48. #48

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    Flying totally blind to find the targets would be silly to me. There would be way too much luck in even having a chance to spot an enemy. I didn't want to waste anyone's time setting up a game and have no sightings! To make it more realistic I'm sure it would be much more difficult than I have made it. This is not an easy thing to model in this game system. I took a shot at it and feel I found a game-able solution. As in all rules, everyone is free to play it the way they prefer making any changes to their taste.

    Peter,
    This is what I did and it was more of an experiment on my part than anything.
    The next time I play a night mission I will play closer to your proposed rules.
    I did find them highly acceptable for night fighting.
    And as you know, players will do what players want with whatever rules are out there.
    Thanks for coming up with the night fighting rules.

  49. #49

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    Yes, we gamers always feel the urge to change things!

    I wasn't sure if you had a positive experience so its good to hear you like the rules.

    Wheres Carl...two more days until Mission 15!!!!!

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Yes, we gamers always feel the urge to change things!

    I wasn't sure if you had a positive experience so its good to hear you like the rules.

    Wheres Carl...two more days until Mission 15!!!!!
    Finally found time to write up my Epilogue for Mission 14, now I can think about Mission 15.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...l=1#post456468



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