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Thread: Blood Red Skies

  1. #51

  2. #52

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    Better put than I Carl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    I downloaded the rules and went over them last night. BRS reminds me more of the Axis & Allies Air Force Miniatures game than Wings of War/Glory. As a beer and pretzels diversion I can see where some would find it entertaining, but it did confirm this is not the game for me.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  3. #53

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    So what type of plastic do Warlord intend to do these in - rigid or flexible?
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  4. #54

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    Hmmm... Do I see a repeat of poor research?

    This image is from Ken's blog post:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I think I can see cannon blisters (circles) on this wing, where there shouldn't be any blisters. Also, there are only three access panels for the MGs, where there should be four (arrows point out where there should be two rectangles, not one).

    PS: the wing isn't right for a few more panel lines, now that I'm trying to figure out what they've done. Small thing, really, but not correct.

    This image from the examination of the Nexus and Ares Mk I and II Spitfires:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    From this thread: Spitfire - Wings of War vs Wings of GLory

    Both companies put cannon blisters on the 'A' wing, which shouldn't have been there.

    It appears that Warlord attempted to put MG access panels on the wing, but perhaps scale made putting all four a bit crowded. The wing, if it does have a blister as indicated by the circle, would be a mix of a type 'A' and type 'C' wing, that never existed. So, as with Nexus/Ares models, all that would be needed for a Mk V would be to fill in the panel lines for the inner MG access, and put brass rod (or sprue) cannons on the leading edges.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-27-2017 at 07:53.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Yes, but if they fixed the canopy I'd be a lot happier. Still, you cant have everything
    Well they are pre-production models, with luck they may have corrected them by the time they get released, if not maybe a little corrective surgery might do the trick ? Thanks for showing them off, they might be an option for WGS players even if they don't like the look of BRS, especially if they start churning out some wish list favourites.

    "He is wise who watches"

  6. #56

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    Carl if it ANGLES 20 (A&A) I know what you mean. I have the game but much prefer WoG. It reminded me of Check Your Six or Squadrons which are both hex based.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    Carl if it ANGLES 20 (A&A) I know what you mean. I have the game but much prefer WoG. It reminded me of Check Your Six or Squadrons which are both hex based.
    That's the one Bob. I have it as well,with about 30 aircraft. Yes it is hex based but incorporates deflection shooting, angling the aircraft on the stand, and other aspects similar to BRS.

  8. #58

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    I also have a number of planes but like WoG better and the planes are a softer material. A number of them have bent wings because of that. Also as with War@ Sea they stopped after the 2nd set they put out.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    I also have a number of planes but like WoG better and the planes are a softer material. A number of them have bent wings because of that. Also as with War@ Sea they stopped after the 2nd set they put out.
    Yes mine are in a box tucked away somewhere. I originally bought it for my son to play when he was younger due to the bigger and sturdier models and ease of play. But again it was just a dogfighting game and I prefer a system with a wider scope.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Hmmm... Do I see a repeat of poor research?

    This image is from Ken's blog post:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I think I can see cannon blisters (circles) on this wing, where there shouldn't be any blisters. Also, there are only three access panels for the MGs, where there should be four (arrows point out where there should be two rectangles, not one).

    PS: the wing isn't right for a few more panel lines, now that I'm trying to figure out what they've done. Small thing, really, but not correct.

    This image from the examination of the Nexus and Ares Mk I and II Spitfires:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    From this thread: Spitfire - Wings of War vs Wings of GLory

    Both companies put cannon blisters on the 'A' wing, which shouldn't have been there.

    It appears that Warlord attempted to put MG access panels on the wing, but perhaps scale made putting all four a bit crowded. The wing, if it does have a blister as indicated by the circle, would be a mix of a type 'A' and type 'C' wing, that never existed. So, as with Nexus/Ares models, all that would be needed for a Mk V would be to fill in the panel lines for the inner MG access, and put brass rod (or sprue) cannons on the leading edges.
    Very good spot - I had not seen the cannon blisters at all and now have a red face. Yes there is a very slight bulging on the wings . That is I suppose a good and a bad thing - as Mike points out it is incorrect, however it does make it easy to make this into a MkV

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    So what type of plastic do Warlord intend to do these in - rigid or flexible?
    My understanding is rigid the same as their Bolt Action infantry. Although I don't know for sure they have been teaming up with Italeri for their most recent plastic tanks etc. If that follows then they should be crisp and clear sprues. Fingers crossed.

  12. #62

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    Hmmm... Better look again at the other planes.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Appears to me that the Bf-109 has 'K' wing panels, not 'E' wing panels:
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    The tips look OK, though, even if the leading edge slats are not all the way to the tips.

    Found a really nice page for version drawings: www.hobbymex.com - Bf-109 Drawings F-K
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-28-2017 at 12:14.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Hmmm... Better look again at the other planes.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Appeats to me that the Bf-109 has 'K' wing panels, not 'E' wing panels:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The tips look OK, though, even if the leading edge slats are not all the way to the tips.

    Found a really nice page for version drawings: www.hobbymex.com - Bf-109 Drawings F-K
    Lol - lets hope they can fix this. Makes me wonder where they got the masters from? Have to admit I just ignored the panel lines but now its pointed out..... Best have a look at the others too

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Panel lines on the Zero look like the A6M2 not the A6M5
    Last edited by PilGrim; 08-28-2017 at 13:38.

  14. #64

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    I'm going to let a PTO expert jump into the discussion on versions of Zeros. Same for the Russian Front, as I haven't done many cards for the Russians, either.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Panel lines on the Zero look like the M6A2 not the M6A5
    I think you mean "A6M", not "M6A" -- IJN lettering put "acft. class" first, then number, then builder-designator. ("M6A" was the "Seiran" collapsible float-plane bomber on the _I-400_-class subs.)

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    I think you mean "A6M", not "M6A" -- IJN lettering put "acft. class" first, then number, then builder-designator. ("M6A" was the "Seiran" collapsible float-plane bomber on the _I-400_-class subs.)
    Nothing wrong with a bit of dyslexia among friends, eh? As long as your not spotting/laying down artillery fire
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    I think you mean "A6M", not "M6A" -- IJN lettering put "acft. class" first, then number, then builder-designator. ("M6A" was the "Seiran" collapsible float-plane bomber on the _I-400_-class subs.)
    Yes - fat finger syndrome there Gents. Fixed

  18. #68

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    Said the German farmer as 6 mortar shells ruined his chicken coup in '83!

    Neil

    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Nothing wrong with a bit of dyslexia among friends, eh? As long as your not spotting/laying down artillery fire
    Karl
    See you on the Dark Side......

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Said the German farmer as 6 mortar shells ruined his chicken coup in '83!

    Neil
    Hehe I bet the safety officer got a kick in the pants!

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Said the German farmer as 6 mortar shells ruined his chicken coup in '83!

    Neil
    If the chickens were attempting a coup then they got what they deserved!

  21. #71

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    Well there is a lot of heated disscussion going on, but to be fair each to their own. Me I am staying with ARES as I have not come across a better game system (that includes models rules ect) and BRS does not measure up. That is my view.

  22. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    Well there is a lot of heated disscussion going on, but to be fair each to their own. Me I am staying with ARES as I have not come across a better game system (that includes models rules ect) and BRS does not measure up. That is my view.
    Hi Doug - Fair enough, and each to their own. I only got "vexed" when there were some rather offhand and IMHO uninformed comments made earlier. Anyway that boat has sailed.

    At the moment more concerned at the errors the guys here are pointing out - with varying degrees of glee :-) in the prototypes. We all are sharing pretty much the same model pool and they should be interchangeable from system to system, so it is in everyone's best interest that we get some nice, reasonably costed 1:200 toys. The problem is the more we look at these the more question marks are being raised. I'm not sure how welcome my comments are going to be at Warlord, but I don't work for them and won't buff a product I don't think is up to scratch to stay in favour. I'm a bloody minded person, as can probably be seen from my earlier comments and that works both ways.

    Which leads to an interesting point - how good does a model have to be to be good enough? On one side we have the "that looks about right" (TLAR) and at the other end of the scale there are "rivet counters" (RC). So far these models are falling firmly in the TLAR side of the scale. Of course you can never totally please the RCs but is that an excuse to produce inaccurate models? Using these as an example I'm happy to write off the canopy issue with the 109 as that is probably the result of the production method tolerances, but the wing panel issue is just poor research. I wonder what % of the market these issues matter to?

    I feel a poll coming on

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Said the German farmer as 6 mortar shells ruined his chicken coup in '83!

    Neil
    Not responsible for that were you Neil?

    Or was he the victim of fowl play......
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Hi Doug - Fair enough, and each to their own. I only got "vexed" when there were some rather offhand and IMHO uninformed comments made earlier. Anyway that boat has sailed.

    At the moment more concerned at the errors the guys here are pointing out - with varying degrees of glee :-) in the prototypes. We all are sharing pretty much the same model pool and they should be interchangeable from system to system, so it is in everyone's best interest that we get some nice, reasonably costed 1:200 toys. The problem is the more we look at these the more question marks are being raised. I'm not sure how welcome my comments are going to be at Warlord, but I don't work for them and won't buff a product I don't think is up to scratch to stay in favour. I'm a bloody minded person, as can probably be seen from my earlier comments and that works both ways.

    Which leads to an interesting point - how good does a model have to be to be good enough? On one side we have the "that looks about right" (TLAR) and at the other end of the scale there are "rivet counters" (RC). So far these models are falling firmly in the TLAR side of the scale. Of course you can never totally please the RCs but is that an excuse to produce inaccurate models? Using these as an example I'm happy to write off the canopy issue with the 109 as that is probably the result of the production method tolerances, but the wing panel issue is just poor research. I wonder what % of the market these issues matter to?

    I feel a poll coming on
    I'm remembering we did one a couple years back; or just a thread
    For me, I can accept a few minor glitches at this scale and purpose; the Bf-109k was a bit much, esp. after it seemed that it was right in pre-production. And we won't mention the T****h***d in WGF
    I think when we're counting panels on a 1/200 model for gaming, it's too far. Others feel differently, and that's fine.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  25. #75

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    Yes The T**pe H***d was something of a low point

    edit - no with some afterthought the "Belgian" RE8 is the hands down winner. Luckily there are so few Belgians it didn't seem to matter

    At least I think so, however who knows what will come?
    Last edited by PilGrim; 08-29-2017 at 03:35.

  26. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Lol - lets hope they can fix this. Makes me wonder where they got the masters from? Have to admit I just ignored the panel lines but now its pointed out..... Best have a look at the others too...
    Seems like BRS has more in common with WGS than we at first thought !

    "He is wise who watches"

  27. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Seems like BRS has more in common with WGS than we at first thought !

  28. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    ...

    ... I'm not sure how welcome my comments are going to be at Warlord, but I don't work for them and won't buff a product I don't think is up to scratch to stay in favour. I'm a bloody minded person, as can probably be seen from my earlier comments and that works both ways.

    ...
    For what it's worth, I used Warlord's site to put in an observation about the planes. I have yet to receive a reply that wasn't automated.

    It may be far too late in the production process to fix this now, without pushing the release date back.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  29. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Yes The T**pe H***d was something of a low point
    [Blackadder] Oh, you meant the Sopwith Triplane? [/Blackadder]

  30. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    It may be far too late in the production process to fix this now, without pushing the release date back.
    I suspect so. As is often the case we punters get to see the stuff far too late to be able to fix issues. The problems aren't all that bad as far as I'm concerned, mostly invisible on a gaming table, but even so its irksome.

  31. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Yes The T**pe H***d was something of a low point
    Low point.... low point

    No I am not a fan of that model.... can someone pass me the pills please

  32. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    Low point.... low point

    No I am not a fan of that model.... can someone pass me the pills please
    Here you go, with some port to chase them down
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  33. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    Low point.... low point

    No I am not a fan of that model.... can someone pass me the pills please
    Really? I thought the Belgian RE8 was very much worse. Did anyone ever get to the bottom of why the Triplane and RE8 ended up so wrong. Also, is there any evidence the inaccuracies caused a loss of sales?

  34. #84

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    Hi the RE8 did not get published like this

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/alb...hmentid=101556

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/alb...hmentid=101555

    And to show here is one next to a Shapeways

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/alb...hmentid=101554

    Dont know about sales but I for one have never used a Triplane in action, except Shapeways or my repaired Ares version, this was the one aircraft I was really looking forward to and initial pictures of the prototype looked perfect, then it was released and I been anti ever since, no I will not let it go

  35. #85

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    To get back to the topic of BRS, not too sure about this one, the demo I saw at Partizan 2 caught my attention, as mentioned previously I did like the fact that when you buy a sqn pack, it is a sqn pack and comes with a number of models, I did not get chance to look closely at the models so again cannot comment nor did I get to have a go due to our own Sails of Glory Demo.
    I would like to have a go to compare to WGS and to check out the gameplay, it will be good to get another source of models and if sales goes well we may get some German bombers , Do17 and Ju88 long before Ares publish them so it cant be that bad, plus it should be pretty simple to convert between the two systems so you can choose your own preference.
    Last edited by Boney10; 08-30-2017 at 02:27.

  36. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    Hi the RE8 did not get published like this

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/alb...hmentid=101556

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/alb...hmentid=101555

    And to show here is one next to a Shapeways

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/alb...hmentid=101554

    Dont know about sales but I for one have never used a Triplane in action, except Shapeways or my repaired Ares version, this was the one aircraft I was really looking forward to and initial pictures of the prototype looked perfect, then it was released and I been anti ever since, no I will not let it go
    True - but the RE8 has the wrong engine AND they represented this by leaving the exhausts off so you couldn't even repaint it

    My Triplane didnt have such a bendy wing problem but I went to Shapeways anyway and "retired" the Ares model

  37. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    To get back to the topic of BRS, not too sure about this one, the demo I saw at Partizan 2 caught my attention, as mentioned previously I did like the fact that when you buy a sqn pack, it is a sqn pack and comes with a number of models, I did not get chance to look closely at the models so again cannot comment nor did I get to have a go due to our own Sails of Glory Demo.
    I would like to have a go to compare to WGS and to chevk out the gameplay, it will be good to get another diurce of madels and if sales goes well we may get some German bombers , Do17 and Ju88 long before Ares publish them so it csn be that bad, plus it should be pretty simole to convert between the two systems so you can choose your own preference.
    As I said before, I think the rules are very sound, but in deference to what others here have said, they are very different in approach to WGS. Although I think much of the criticism comes from a lack of experience and not getting the full picture of how they work, it is undeniable that they simplify the precise planning and manoeuvring element that you can get with WGS so if that's your thing, BRS may not be. I get the impression the rules are very well thought through, which is no surprise as Andy Chambers has been doing this sort of thing for a long time. I also get the impression the rules are something of a pet project for him that he's managed to get into production rather than a corporate suit master plan.

    I think it will succeed and we will see more models in due course, and I would expect the Do17 & Blenheim will probably be around quite early as these are part of the core game. I know they are planning a Hurricane, Fw190 and iirc P47 as the second set of releases but it will depend on how the game takes off.

  38. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    True - but the RE8 has the wrong engine AND they represented this by leaving the exhausts off so you couldn't even repaint it

    My Triplane didnt have such a bendy wing problem but I went to Shapeways anyway and "retired" the Ares model
    IIRC, Belgium did use some with the RAF4a engine. It is really too much to expect a different sculpt for 1 in 3 planes of the release.
    For the Tripe, I suspect the finished height of the model prevented it from fitting into the standard box, hence the squish
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  39. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    IIRC, Belgium did use some with the RAF4a engine. It is really too much to expect a different sculpt for 1 in 3 planes of the release.
    Karl
    Yes, the majority of them had the standard engine fitted.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  40. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Yes, the majority of them had the standard engine fitted.
    Actually that's not true as I understand it, the majority had the Hispano engine fitted and the rest were converted. However even if that was not the case why do Ares remove the exhaust stacks?

  41. #91

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    More BoB is enough of a deal killer for me. From my perspective on the West Coast of the USA BoB was a skirmish before the real war began on December 7, 1941. Before you throw boots at my head please realize I am joking.

    I am not buying into BRS but am familiar with Warlord games and am in the process of building USMC and Japanese forces from their Blot Action Line. The quality of the molds and options for decking out the troops is amazing for the price. Warlord offers high quality miniatures and produce them in quantities sufficient to support a thriving player base. If you cannot find a particular model at your FLGS store then you can order up what you need right from their web store. They throw out scenario themes, such as summer tank battles, and then put a dozen of their tank types on sale at 25% off. Overall Warlord's engagement with the community is high.

    Why am I getting into all of this? From a business perspective it doesn't matter if BRS has better or worse models because Warlord offers excellent product so they will be good enough. It doesn't matter if the rules are better or worse than WGS as long as people like their rules. Historic accuracy is always going to be a moving target in the gaming world (and real world) of differing perspectives, alternate facts, and the buyer's desire to have what they want when they want it! What really matters in the BRS vs WGS competition is who engages the potential customer base more effectively. Riddle me this Batman: Which product line BRS or WGS will be the first to release the iconic Corsair?

  42. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokhuah View Post
    More BoB is enough of a deal killer for me. From my perspective on the West Coast of the USA BoB was a skirmish before the real war began on December 7, 1941. Before you throw boots at my head please realize I am joking.

    I am not buying into BRS but am familiar with Warlord games and am in the process of building USMC and Japanese forces from their Blot Action Line. The quality of the molds and options for decking out the troops is amazing for the price. Warlord offers high quality miniatures and produce them in quantities sufficient to support a thriving player base. If you cannot find a particular model at your FLGS store then you can order up what you need right from their web store. They throw out scenario themes, such as summer tank battles, and then put a dozen of their tank types on sale at 25% off. Overall Warlord's engagement with the community is high.

    Why am I getting into all of this? From a business perspective it doesn't matter if BRS has better or worse models because Warlord offers excellent product so they will be good enough. It doesn't matter if the rules are better or worse than WGS as long as people like their rules. Historic accuracy is always going to be a moving target in the gaming world (and real world) of differing perspectives, alternate facts, and the buyer's desire to have what they want when they want it! What really matters in the BRS vs WGS competition is who engages the potential customer base more effectively. Riddle me this Batman: Which product line BRS or WGS will be the first to release the iconic Corsair?
    That will be the RN Corsair with the 20mms?

    Yes I think I agree. Warlord will deliver in a way Ares can't so we will all benefit

  43. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    That will be the RN Corsair with the 20mms?

    Yes I think I agree. Warlord will deliver in a way Ares can't so we will all benefit

    Whatever looks like Baa Baa Black Sheep because that is what people want, even though that show is terribly inaccurate.

    If BRS is successful everyone except Ares will benefit. Well, people who want pre-painted minis will also be boned by Ares discontinuing production, so let's hope that does not happen.

  44. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager
    For the Tripe, I suspect the finished height of the model prevented it from fitting into the standard box, hence the squish
    Karl
    That was my conclusion.

  45. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    For the Tripe, I suspect the finished height of the model prevented it from fitting into the standard box, hence the squish
    Now all I can think of is squished animal intestines...

  46. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokhuah View Post

    If BRS is successful everyone except Ares will benefit. Well, people who want pre-painted minis will also be boned by Ares discontinuing production, so let's hope that does not happen.
    I don't think that is going to happen, or rather the ongoing success of WGS has little to do with BRS. I think we forget that Ares don't base their releases on anything to do with the historical wargames market. They're a board games company who happen to produce a board game that wargamers have "adopted". If you need any reassurance just look at their release schedule - there is no suggestion of any real coordinated release plan. We already have a wide selection of other games and model producers and so far that hasn't seemingly impacted on Ares decision making.

  47. #97

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    So just to sum up, and concentrating on just the models and details

    Me109 - Cockpit frame "disappointing" and 109K wing panels not Es
    Spitfire - Cannon bulges
    Zero - no cannon and A2 panels
    Yak - nothing reported
    P51 Nothing reported

    That seem about it?

  48. #98

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    Apologies for dredging up a thread several months dormant, but I'm curious if anyone has heard/seen anything else regarding the minis attached to this game? The release date draws nigh... and I'm not opposed to some kind of advantaged/disadvantaged mechanic in air combat games.

    Either way, fascinating discussion.

  49. #99

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    I asked my FLGS today and the distributor still does not have a release date. On the website Warlord promises a December delivery of pre-orders and general release one month later. So probably by the end of February at the latest.

    I do not need any more BoB airplanes included in the BRS starter box since I have x3 original Spits, x2 additional from the new set. etc. so I passed on the pre-order. For me there are no 'must have' needs regarding the initial airplanes but I have my eye on this product for future releases because Warlord will offer airplanes that the greatest number of people really want at a faster pace than Ares.

    At the end of the day I have no interest in the BRS system and am not going to jump games. However, I may jump into more models depending on how long it takes Ares to produce the stuff I want.

  50. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokhuah View Post
    I asked my FLGS today and the distributor still does not have a release date. On the website Warlord promises a December delivery of pre-orders and general release one month later. So probably by the end of February at the latest.
    Thanks for the inquiry and info, Scott.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokhuah View Post
    At the end of the day I have no interest in the BRS system and am not going to jump games. However, I may jump into more models depending on how long it takes Ares to produce the stuff I want.
    I'm willing to look, at least... I've always thought that WGS could use a little tweaking. And I won't say "no" to well-made playing pieces Ares has yet to produce...

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