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Thread: Blood Red Skies

  1. #1

    Default Blood Red Skies

    Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere: another source of 1/200 WW2 models is on the way....

    http://www.warlordgames.com/advanced...eid=644facf4cf

  2. #2

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    We got the low down on this at Bovi - Basing is different, the models tilt forward, level & back to show positional advantage and it's intended to play big aerial clashes. No bomber models yet. Pieces come unpainted are single piece and snap fit to base but may well suit you modelling chaps wanting more Spits etc. no idea how accurate/detailed the pieces are though.
    £225 for the big bundle includes 47 aircraft. Think the basic pack was quoted 'around £40' inc 12 models.

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    At "Entoyment" on Saturday, Pete Valinsky showed me the first "leaked" photos of the models on Farcebook.............................

    Not a Farcebook devotee myself, and thankfully I have plenty of Spitfires/Hurricanes/Bf.109s/Bf110s/Stukas/Heinkel He-111s, so I need not get excited, but I can see how others might....................

  4. #4

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    Also not a Faceplant devotee but ... lol you guys beat me to it, was going to post a thread about this game. Have to say it looks fun and seeing as the first release is the battle of Britain issue and will come with 6 x 109s and six Spitfires looks like it could become popular for all the wrong reasons, lol

    Never knowingly under gunned !

  5. #5

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    So, another source of "pre-painted" miniatures in 1/200 scale. Nothing on the 'net concerning any particulars, and the pre-order sets are upwards of $120 USD each (25 planes, though, as a pre-order special?). Single-piece planes, with snap-on bases. No close-ups or reviews of the planes on-line, yet. Hmmm... A bit of modding and they might fit into Wings of Glory.

    Would like to see a bit of the game-play, though that appears to be obscured for IP reasons, until after the release date of "late 2017".
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  6. #6

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    I have not seen any images of the miniatures but I recall what the 1/100 scale miniatures for Wizards Axis and Allies WW2 air fighting game were like - plastic with a snap on base - and they were not very detailed. it will be interesting to see the first images.

    Interesting their choice of 1/200, likely an intentional strategy to piggy back on Wings of Glory.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    So, another source of "pre-painted" miniatures in 1/200 scale.
    Dave's post says unpainted - probably green plastic for RAF and grey for Luftwaffe.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Dave's post says unpainted - probably green plastic for RAF and grey for Luftwaffe.
    Frome the Blood Red Skies Facebook page:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The web page says:
    Blood Red Skies includes 12 coloured plastic fighter aircraft, 12 clear plastic Blood Red Skies Advantage flying bases...
    Which could mean anything, including single colour plastic moldings. The Facebook photo could be "painted by demo host", as it doesn't show any images of the contents clearly.

    This image is the best I could find, and to my eyes, it appears these are painted. I would assume (dangerous, I know) that they come with some colouring.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Frome the Blood Red Skies Facebook page:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	BloodRedSkies_FacebookMinis_19756612_1874190979571331_3880503162824237105_n.jpg 
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    The web page says:


    Which could mean anything, including single colour plastic moldings. The Facebook photo could be "painted by demo host", as it doesn't show any images of the contents clearly.

    This image is the best I could find, and to my eyes, it appears these are painted. I would assume (dangerous, I know) that they come with some colouring.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    They look very much like smaller versions of the Axis and Allies aircraft - all plastic, basic mold with no props or antennae. The 109s look a bit flat like the old metal Air 200 miniatures.

    PS someone should tell the company that Luftwaffe fighters did not fly in 'Kette' formation during the Battle of Britain.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    They look very much like smaller versions of the Axis and Allies aircraft - all plastic, basic mold with no props or antennae. The 109s look a bit flat like the old metal Air 200 miniatures.

    PS someone should tell the company that Luftwaffe fighters did not fly in 'Kette' formation during the Battle of Britain.
    But then, they'd need eight Bf-109s in a box, not six. It would ruin their marketing.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  11. #11

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    I've already ranted my initial dislike of this game five times today, don't make me make it six lol.....
    If you look at the pre-orders the kits are as follows. Yak-1, Spitfire Mk.II, Bf-109E, and here is where it gets weird, A6M5 and P-51D.
    You have two planes that are out of place by four years. Also, despite the upgrades, I think we can agree the A6M5 isn't the best choice for late war Japanese aircraft.
    So you have three nations with 1940 planes, one nation with a late war design that isn't that good of a design, and one nation gets its premium late war air superiority fighter. I really don't know what the game designer was thinking but this is a horrible set up.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    I've already ranted my initial dislike of this game five times today, don't make me make it six lol.....
    If you look at the pre-orders the kits are as follows. Yak-1, Spitfire Mk.II, Bf-109E, and here is where it gets weird, A6M5 and P-51D.
    You have two planes that are out of place by four years. Also, despite the upgrades, I think we can agree the A6M5 isn't the best choice for late war Japanese aircraft.
    So you have three nations with 1940 planes, one nation with a late war design that isn't that good of a design, and one nation gets its premium late war air superiority fighter. I really don't know what the game designer was thinking but this is a horrible set up.
    Lucas,
    Come on. You know what's being done. It is an appeal to the masses, not the historians, or marginally informed gamers.

    I didn't even look at the mix of planes. Being that the company is promoting the release as somehow connected to the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Britain, there isn't any mention of Hurricanes, or other British planes. I'd have to go back to the company web site, but I don't recall any mention of targets (bombers) for the game.

    So, for this game, it appears to be about getting stuck in, shooting each other, not about accuracy (year of operation, theatre of operation, capability balance, etc...). If you are going to market to an American clientele, you have to put in P-51s, despite, IIRC, P-51s and Zeros were not really opponents.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  13. #13

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    The small print says," Models supplied unassembled and unpainted".

    Does anyone know what the reference to "3 Blenheim IV / Dornier Do17 Z2 bombers" means? Are these cardboard targets?

  14. #14

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    And the price tag is $300....I find it a non-starter for that reason alone!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    The small print says," Models supplied unassembled and unpainted".

    Does anyone know what the reference to "3 Blenheim IV / Dornier Do17 Z2 bombers" means? Are these cardboard targets?
    It says 'cards', maybe something like an old Wings of War aircraft card with firing arcs.

    Taking another look at the plastic aircraft on the 'leaked' photo they look very much like the Axis and Allies ground war miniatures game aircraft.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    But then, they'd need eight Bf-109s in a box, not six. It would ruin their marketing.
    Yeah, it's perfect for their marketing as it is - you have to buy a squadron box of 6 to get 12.... you did see Andy Chambers authored the game right ?!
    Last edited by flash; 07-10-2017 at 22:45.

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #17

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    Well not for me I am sticking with ARES got more than enough painting for other games

  18. #18

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    According to the Faceache site: Inside the core box for Blood Red Skies you get…

    12x plastic fighter coloured aircraft,
    12x clear plastic advantage flying bases,
    10x combat dice,
    12x Pilot Skill level discs,
    3x Gaming booklets: Rules, Expanded rules, Scenarios.
    45x cards to use in game,
    38x markers to use in game,
    2x Quick Reference Sheets
    A set of tools: a movement template, range finder and navigation caliper
    Each Expansion set contains six more planes and cards that allow you to use these planes in your games. Ace expansion sets come with one plane and the unique stats for the Ace

    Presumably the movement template differs from plane to plane, as much as WoG has different manoeuvre decks? I shall curb my enthusiasm until I can actually see the goods, as like Tim I am not short of the basics for BoB.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  19. #19

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    I bought the Axis & Allies when it came out but never played it. Much prefer our Wings.

  20. #20

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    Hi Gents

    I've got it and played it and it works a treat. Couple of Blog Posts about it

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/...ope-stirs.html

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/...st-sortie.html

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/...red-skies.html

    Also a look at the resin prototypes

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/...have-said.html

    The starter set is going to be 6v6 Battle of Britain. That's good as far as it goes but whoever had the controls at Warlord when they decided on the releases must have been on something because there is little coherency after that.

    I'm watching this with interest

  21. #21

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    I would rather sit all day and try to platt fog.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  22. #22

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    Really - that's a shame because the game mechanics are very good, far better than WGS in my opinion. Why do you say that? Any experience or just knee jerk?

  23. #23

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    No, because I'd rather sit and platt fog. You could sit and Kreigspeile this without all the bits and pieces. But the main thing is the cost. far too much.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  24. #24

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    Hang on, the starter set is going to be retailing at about £40 including 12 planes, rules, cards etc. That's not bad at all.

    More importantly, the rules really work to recreate dogfights, which if were being honest is not really the case with WGS which is still a card game at heart

    As to "you could sit and Kreigspeile this without all the bits and pieces" really? Cards on the table have you actually played the game, read the rules or done anything other than just make a stupid judgement followed by a fatuous statement?

    I have played both games. I love Wings, particularly the WW1 version, but having actually played both, BRS is miles ahead of WGS in everything except the quality of the models. Then again they are significantly cheaper, and you do need more.

    Give it a chance when it gets full release, you will be doing yourself a favour

  25. #25

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    Just throwing fat into a fire here, but is there altitude in this new game? Or is that another abstraction left out of yet another supposedly 3-dimensional aerial combat game?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  26. #26

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    Watched a couple of the videos of this game and see that there are cards associated with it. Movement is with a ruler rather then using a card. The Me 109 moved 7 and then turned. Combat is with dice rather then the chits used with the WWII game. To each their own on what game they like better. For me WoG.

  27. #27

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    Well said Bob. I just don't have money to burn when I already have one, why do I need another.....oh damn that's me buying Bolt Action when I have hoards of 6mm! Hoist by me own petarde...again!
    See you on the Dark Side......

  28. #28

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    Keep your eyes open for it being played at one of the shows then we can see what all the fuss is about - or not, whatever the case may be.

    Never knowingly under gunned !

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Just throwing fat into a fire here, but is there altitude in this new game? Or is that another abstraction left out of yet another supposedly 3-dimensional aerial combat game?
    That is rather a good point, so rather than ask how accurately WGS represents altitude, which is pretty much impossible on a table anyway, I'll try and answer it reasonably.

    They have a very interesting mechanism to represent the fluidity of a fighter engagement. Rather than trying to represent altitude, they class aircraft as advantaged, neutral or disadvantaged in relation to each other. That status changes as the action moves. Advantage can represent altitude, but it can also represent a lot of other things like energy state, or even awareness. Planes can only be shot down when disadvantaged, but you can reduce advantage by manoeuvre. You can also choose a pilot action for each plane that can either improve your own status or possibly degrade an opponents status in the hope of setting him up for a shot later. Getting onto the tail of a target automatically disadvantages him (for instance), UNLESS he has a friend covering him, ie a game where a wing-man actually works. As initiative is variable and based on advantage, then speed, it is possible for a slower aircraft with advantage (ie height) to convert that advantage into an attack.

    I appreciate I'm dealing with a hostile crowd here. Please remember I've been playing Wings of War for a long time, I've been a member here for over seven years now, I know it like the back of my hand, its many strengths and also its weaknesses. I'm not here to cause a fight. But my honest assessment is that Wings is or was the least worse way to play a WW2 air game on a tabletop because it did the best job of representing something we really cant really handle. I think having played both now the new least worse way to play WW2 aircraft is BRS.

    That is not to say it is perfect - not by far, but I would humbly suggest that if you try it with an open mind you may well come to the same conclusion I did. Don't take my word for it - download the free basic rules and give them a try. Then if you don't like them, at least you are speaking from a position of some knowledge rather than ignorance.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    That is rather a good point, so rather than ask how accurately WGS represents altitude, which is pretty much impossible on a table anyway, I'll try and answer it reasonably.

    They have a very interesting mechanism to represent the fluidity of a fighter engagement. Rather than trying to represent altitude, they class aircraft as advantaged, neutral or disadvantaged in relation to each other. That status changes as the action moves. Advantage can represent altitude, but it can also represent a lot of other things like energy state, or even awareness. Planes can only be shot down when disadvantaged, but you can reduce advantage by manoeuvre. You can also choose a pilot action for each plane that can either improve your own status or possibly degrade an opponents status in the hope of setting him up for a shot later. Getting onto the tail of a target automatically disadvantages him (for instance), UNLESS he has a friend covering him, ie a game where a wing-man actually works. As initiative is variable and based on advantage, then speed, it is possible for a slower aircraft with advantage (ie height) to convert that advantage into an attack.

    I appreciate I'm dealing with a hostile crowd here. Please remember I've been playing Wings of War for a long time, I've been a member here for over seven years now, I know it like the back of my hand, its many strengths and also its weaknesses. I'm not here to cause a fight. But my honest assessment is that Wings is or was the least worse way to play a WW2 air game on a tabletop because it did the best job of representing something we really cant really handle. I think having played both now the new least worse way to play WW2 aircraft is BRS.

    That is not to say it is perfect - not by far, but I would humbly suggest that if you try it with an open mind you may well come to the same conclusion I did. Don't take my word for it - download the free basic rules and give them a try. Then if you don't like them, at least you are speaking from a position of some knowledge rather than ignorance.
    I wouldn't say you are dealing with a hostile audience, Ken. An old, cantankerous, fixed-in-our-ways audience maybe...

    However, when looking at the links and AARs provided, I thought the plane positioning was a bit ridiculous. Could be that is just trying to represent the "advantaged", normal, "disadvantaged" status of each plane, I suspect. I'd rather another indicator than tilting the planes (such as the dice marker used for the Bf-110s).

    I think it would be worth a play or two, but it might mean another financial/storage problem to deal with. We'll see if anyone wants to demo it here on the island, and go from there.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    If you look at the pre-orders the kits are as follows. Yak-1, Spitfire Mk.II, Bf-109E, and here is where it gets weird, A6M5 and P-51D.
    You have two planes that are out of place by four years. Also, despite the upgrades, I think we can agree the A6M5 isn't the best choice for late war Japanese aircraft.
    So you have three nations with 1940 planes, one nation with a late war design that isn't that good of a design, and one nation gets its premium late war air superiority fighter. I really don't know what the game designer was thinking but this is a horrible set up.
    This is 100% accurate and I agree 100% with the main points, but it doesn't give the full picture. The game designer had little control over the actual release sequence. I agree the first releases are bat**** crazy choices, and to be honest the choice seems to have been made by someone who doesn't have a basic grasp of the subject, but they are just the initial releases. The rules are solid and they're planning a second wave as soon as the first goes live to include Hurricane, 190, P47 etc. The point being the stats for a rather large group of aircraft will be available too - there are 4 different 109 variants, E, F, G & K, 4 Spits II, V, IX & XIV, nineteen US types and counting etc etc. They're not saying you cant use the models you already have either or that you have to use their models.

    Personally I would have screamed "Just do the Battle of Britain" for launch with Spits, Hurricanes vs 109s and 110s, but for whatever reason (I think the suits thought that they would not sell to the US market without a P51 in the initial release) they have gone for this scatter-gun approach. I'd also have said follow up BoB with a Midway set with Zeros, Wildcats and the like to appeal to the US market.

    Oldguy So, for this game, it appears to be about getting stuck in, shooting each other, not about accuracy (year of operation, theatre of operation, capability balance, etc...). If you are going to market to an American clientele, you have to put in P-51s, despite, IIRC, P-51s and Zeros were not really opponents.
    Appearances can be deceptive. There is a whole section of the advanced rules about how to modify the basic scenarios to take account not only of Theatre, but also Period and Doctrine. Bombers are also covered, but this IS about fighters

    but just for one moment can I humbly ask you all to look at the releases for Wings of Glory Second World War in the same light you are using for BRS? Who recalls the joyful recreation of the Battle of Britain that original Delux box set offered, you know with the Wildcats and Zeros mixing it with the 109s and Spitfires? Who recalls the thrill of the second release when we got a Falco, Yak, Tony and a P40 in French colours FCS? In this respect Warlord have some good company it seems

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I wouldn't say you are dealing with a hostile audience, Ken. An old, cantankerous, fixed-in-our-ways audience maybe...

    However, when looking at the links and AARs provided, I thought the plane positioning was a bit ridiculous. Could be that is just trying to represent the "advantaged", normal, "disadvantaged" status of each plane, I suspect. I'd rather another indicator than tilting the planes (such as the dice marker used for the Bf-110s).

    I think it would be worth a play or two, but it might mean another financial/storage problem to deal with. We'll see if anyone wants to demo it here on the island, and go from there.
    Yes - bear in mind the pics are just a scratched together game using planes we have available at the time. They're our bases not the "official" ones, nor are they the Warlord planes - in fact they're 1:144 from a wide range of sources. That caused problems with spacing on table. Rather than try and rescale the movement and shooting ranges I left them as they were. To be fair I think the "official" bases are a bit too gimmicky too from what I've seen (which is just pictures) but I'm 100% certain the "Official Base Police" will not be calling around to arrest anyone if they use another system to represent status. I'm planning to get some perspex ones laser cut to mount my Staffeln of Zerstorer on that I've ordered from Dave at Armaments in Miniature.

  33. #33

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    For £40 it will be worth getting to check out the game mechanics if nothing else. At the very least the aircraft scale is the same as WGS, so future releases will hopefully offer a (reasonably cheap?) source of additional aircraft types for WGS even if you don't like the game.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  34. #34

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    At Partizan last week they had a demo game going on the Warlords stand, had a quick look at it.
    Didnt get chance to have a go due to sailing against the Spanish but had a 10 min chat with the presenters.
    I liked the look of the models and the bases, these moved up and down aka gimbals but not left and right.
    Bigest thing for me was the models come unpainted. Not an issue as I can paint and enjoy doing so but it may affect others from buying. I did like the fact that the packs came with multiple aircraft, their sqn packs are really like a sqn with 6 models, for me though not too sure about moving back to dice, may indulge in the starter set.
    Last edited by Boney10; 08-25-2017 at 00:30.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Hi Gents

    I've got it and played it and it works a treat. Couple of Blog Posts about it

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/...ope-stirs.html

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/...st-sortie.html

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/...red-skies.html

    Also a look at the resin prototypes

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/...have-said.html

    The starter set is going to be 6v6 Battle of Britain. That's good as far as it goes but whoever had the controls at Warlord when they decided on the releases must have been on something because there is little coherency after that.

    I'm watching this with interest
    I appreciate your enthusiasm Ken but I am afraid they lost me here:

    Rather than trying to choreograph the whole process of one plane half looping to counter a split S then the opponent reacting with a scissors or hard break to get into a firing position, Andy Chambers has assumed all that just happens and the result is either advantage, disadvantage or neutral. Players can choose to improve their advantage status by sacrificing manoeuvre or shooting options, or convert advantage to additional move distance. 3d is out the window, and now planes are simply in better or worse tactical positions.

    Call me a bluff old traditionalist if you will but I find one of the most rewarding aspects of aerial combat games in particular Wings of Glory is outflying your opponent and it appears this system 'streamlines' manoeuvres to a level of abstraction that does not excite me. Also no 3D? I know some play Wings in two dimensions but for myself from the first time my first miniatures hit the table I used altitude rules. IMHO if it doesn't have altitude you might as well be playing with ships or tanks.

    The miniatures I saw were not painted and lacked detail. For 40 quid you would be better off buying some of Dave Schmid's AIM 1/200 scale models for US$4.00 each and painting them up yourself. I am pretty sure you could buy a lot more than twelve for that price.

    To be honest I was surprised Wings of Glory was never mentioned in any of the reviews. WW2 air combat game, 1/200 scale, no hex or grid movement - plenty to talk about there. After all the article does mention Check your Six, Canvas Eagles and Blue Max. To me it was almost as if the reviewer was unwilling to bring up WGS as any comparison may not have cast BRS in a favourable light.

    After reading all the reviewers notes, looking at the Kickstarter and checking out the gameplay on various social media platforms my response is "Thanks, but no thanks."

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    I appreciate your enthusiasm Ken but I am afraid they lost me here:

    Rather than trying to choreograph the whole process of one plane half looping to counter a split S then the opponent reacting with a scissors or hard break to get into a firing position, Andy Chambers has assumed all that just happens and the result is either advantage, disadvantage or neutral. Players can choose to improve their advantage status by sacrificing manoeuvre or shooting options, or convert advantage to additional move distance. 3d is out the window, and now planes are simply in better or worse tactical positions.

    Call me a bluff old traditionalist if you will but I find one of the most rewarding aspects of aerial combat games in particular Wings of Glory is outflying your opponent and it appears this system 'streamlines' manoeuvres to a level of abstraction that does not excite me. Also no 3D? I know some play Wings in two dimensions but for myself from the first time my first miniatures hit the table I used altitude rules. IMHO if it doesn't have altitude you might as well be playing with ships or tanks.

    The miniatures I saw were not painted and lacked detail. For 40 quid you would be better off buying some of Dave Schmid's AIM 1/200 scale models for US$4.00 each and painting them up yourself. I am pretty sure you could buy a lot more than twelve for that price.

    To be honest I was surprised Wings of Glory was never mentioned in any of the reviews. WW2 air combat game, 1/200 scale, no hex or grid movement - plenty to talk about there. After all the article does mention Check your Six, Canvas Eagles and Blue Max. To me it was almost as if the reviewer was unwilling to bring up WGS as any comparison may not have cast BRS in a favourable light.

    After reading all the reviewers notes, looking at the Kickstarter and checking out the gameplay on various social media platforms my response is "Thanks, but no thanks."
    Thanks Carl. I was not specifically trying to exclude Wings from comparisons, actually the intent wasn't to make direct comparisons at all rather than to try and explain why I like the system. I'll happily do a comparison to Wings in a while (see later) but I'm wary of setting up an "us against them" situation. Clearly I think BRS is superior as both a game and a simulation to WGS, and I think that comes across pretty obviously. Any comparison I make would therefore now look partisan. I also think (possibly irrationally) that WGF is superb, but you may hold a different and equally valid view. If you think I am scared of putting Warlord in a less than shining light you clearly are a cad and a scoundrel for making such scurrilous comments ! however I can assure you I'm happy to p*ss on their chips when honesty requires it. The detail "not review" of the 109 I'm completing now may interest you on that score. Should be up tonight

    I agree out manoeuvring is rewarding, and both systems represent that in different ways. Both are massive abstractions (clearly) but I feel on balance the BRS system allows a player more tactical options. I know that sounds counter intuitive as it relies in part on dice, but it is rather hard to explain in a few sentences. If you get a copy of the BRS rules (free download) and play them with your current collection it may be a quicker to understand. I've played about a dozen games with simple Spit II v 109E using the basic rules and I'm hooked. I'm also learning that the BRS system is a lot more nuanced than it initially appears. I should also point out it allows a single player to handle four fighters with ease, something I would find difficult in WGS.

    As far as "no 3d" that's me waxing lyrical about the faux 3d we try and impose on our games. There are altitude rules, but they are part of the Advantage system and a lesser extent the scenarios. Rather than being one (arbitrary) altitude level higher a plane will have advantage over another. As with altitude you get to trade that for options, as you would in real life. Rope a Dope is very real in BRS. There is also a lot going on with the cards which don't play in the way most people expect (me included initially). You wont get the full picture without the advanced rules and the cards (which are not on free download) but the complete set are going (as I understand it) to be included in the starter set - just to put your mind at rest this isnt a "collectable" game where you have to buy one plane just to get a "magic" but essential card

    Your comment about AIM etc is interesting. I'm just waiting for my latest of several orders from Dave, and these will be used for BRS and WGS. I'm going to do a direct comparison once the BRS models come out, as at the moment the only ones being shown are resin prototypes. For the record the 12 models from Dave would cost $48 which at current prices is £38, so rather than "a lot more" you could probably afford a half a 109, but you would not get the flight stands, rules, cards dice etc etc. Detail is another interesting point. Not wishing to give too much away, and with the caveat I have only got my hands on pre production prototypes, I don't think anyone will be too disappointed. Click image for larger version. 

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    BRS isnt getting released until the Christmas \ New Year, and as already mentioned, so I cant do a direct comparison, and I don't have versions of the same models (yet) to show side by side.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post

    Cards on the table have you actually played the game, read the rules or done anything other than just make a stupid judgement followed by a fatuous statement?
    Well, that was unnecessarily rude.

    Not worthy of the high standard usually adhered to on this Forum.

    I was going to post my experiences of Blood Red Skies, but shan't bother now, in case I also attract a salvo of childish vitriol.

  38. #38

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    I'll stick with _Mustangs_.

  39. #39

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    Ken I understand your enthusiasm for another air combat game. I have already outlayed more than enough for a set of rules which to me IMOHO, are quick, easy to learn and fun. With the house rules on the site you can add as much 'realism' as you want to whatever floats your boat, apologies Tim, flys your plane I should say.

    I don't want to throw another £40 into another game, even if in your OHO it is the best thing since sliced bread.

    To answer another of your points with one of my own "Have you ever played Kreigspiel, I mean the game with wooden blocks?" To me that was the most simplistic best fun game I've had, albeit owned by someone else. The fun aspect came in arguing why this should happen over that should happen then agreeing and working out the results. )Long time since I played it).

    If BRS is what you want to play then great, set up another forum and pedal your wares there and see how many takers you get. I hope it is very successful. All I am saying is that I for one wont be, having read the free downloadable rules it just doesn't float my boat (and in my OHO could be played using a kreigspiel type of game), there I go again Tim.

    Dogfights, man have you not played on Simons Battle of Britain extravaganza at York, never played squadron sized games, which I have and thoroughly enjoy and working out squadron tactics and then having it all go to rat crap once first contact is made then it's basically every man for himself. Now that to me in my OHO is fun, flying towards then enemy, trading off (as a squadron) this and that to get this and that and maybe coming out on top is not dogfighting, where's the tally ho, achtung spitfires? Roll a dice and look up a chart or fly using your skill against anothers no contest IMOHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Hang on, the starter set is going to be retailing at about £40 including 12 planes, rules, cards etc. That's not bad at all.

    More importantly, the rules really work to recreate dogfights, which if were being honest is not really the case with WGS which is still a card game at heart

    As to "you could sit and Kreigspeile this without all the bits and pieces" really? Cards on the table have you actually played the game, read the rules or done anything other than just make a stupid judgement followed by a fatuous statement?

    I have played both games. I love Wings, particularly the WW1 version, but having actually played both, BRS is miles ahead of WGS in everything except the quality of the models. Then again they are significantly cheaper, and you do need more.

    Give it a chance when it gets full release, you will be doing yourself a favour
    See you on the Dark Side......

  40. #40

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Ken I understand your enthusiasm for another air combat game. I have already outlayed more than enough for a set of rules which to me IMOHO, are quick, easy to learn and fun. With the house rules on the site you can add as much 'realism' as you want to whatever floats your boat, apologies Tim, flys your plane I should say.

    I don't want to throw another £40 into another game, even if in your OHO it is the best thing since sliced bread.

    To answer another of your points with one of my own "Have you ever played Kreigspiel, I mean the game with wooden blocks?" To me that was the most simplistic best fun game I've had, albeit owned by someone else. The fun aspect came in arguing why this should happen over that should happen then agreeing and working out the results. )Long time since I played it).

    If BRS is what you want to play then great, set up another forum and pedal your wares there and see how many takers you get. I hope it is very successful. All I am saying is that I for one wont be, having read the free downloadable rules it just doesn't float my boat (and in my OHO could be played using a kreigspiel type of game), there I go again Tim.

    Dogfights, man have you not played on Simons Battle of Britain extravaganza at York, never played squadron sized games, which I have and thoroughly enjoy and working out squadron tactics and then having it all go to rat crap once first contact is made then it's basically every man for himself. Now that to me in my OHO is fun, flying towards then enemy, trading off (as a squadron) this and that to get this and that and maybe coming out on top is not dogfighting, where's the tally ho, achtung spitfires? Roll a dice and look up a chart or fly using your skill against anothers no contest IMOHO.
    Great reply Neil!

    Could not have said it better.

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Well, that was unnecessarily rude.

    Not worthy of the high standard usually adhered to on this Forum.

    I was going to post my experiences of Blood Red Skies, but shan't bother now, in case I also attract a salvo of childish vitriol.
    Sorry Tim, that was not intended as rude, vitriol, childish or otherwise. I was simply responding to the comments along the lines of "I would rather platt fog" etc based on what appeared (and actually has since been confirmed) as no actual information or experience. If you took offence I apologise. Furthermore I would appreciate you explain your experience of Blood Red Skies as I am genuinely interested in the view of someone else who has actually seen and or played the game.
    Last edited by PilGrim; 08-25-2017 at 17:55.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Ken I understand your enthusiasm for another air combat game. I have already outlayed more than enough for a set of rules which to me IMOHO, are quick, easy to learn and fun. With the house rules on the site you can add as much 'realism' as you want to whatever floats your boat, apologies Tim, flys your plane I should say.
    You didn't say that did you Neil? You said "I would rather platt fog" as dismissively as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    I don't want to throw another £40 into another game, even if in your OHO it is the best thing since sliced bread.
    i didn't ask you to

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    To answer another of your points with one of my own "Have you ever played Kreigspiel, I mean the game with wooden blocks?" To me that was the most simplistic best fun game I've had, albeit owned by someone else. The fun aspect came in arguing why this should happen over that should happen then agreeing and working out the results. )Long time since I played it).
    Yes I have, quite a bit as it happens. What has that got to do with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    If BRS is what you want to play then great, set up another forum and pedal your wares there and see how many takers you get. I hope it is very successful. All I am saying is that I for one wont be, having read the free downloadable rules it just doesn't float my boat (and in my OHO could be played using a kreigspiel type of game), there I go again Tim.
    Ah "pedal my wares" - I'm not selling anything, I'm exercising my rights as a member of this forum to comment on a post on this forum and respond to posts on this forum. You got an issue with that? I'm also trying to be as informative as possible because (not totally surprisingly given the nature of the information released officially) there seems to be a very false impression of what the game actually is , but clearly I'm failing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Dogfights, man have you not played on Simons Battle of Britain extravaganza at York, never played squadron sized games, which I have and thoroughly enjoy and working out squadron tactics and then having it all go to rat crap once first contact is made then it's basically every man for himself. Now that to me in my OHO is fun, flying towards then enemy, trading off (as a squadron) this and that to get this and that and maybe coming out on top is not dogfighting, where's the tally ho, achtung spitfires? Roll a dice and look up a chart or fly using your skill against anothers no contest IMOHO.
    Err yes - you remember - fat bloke stood next to you at Sheffield, York, Gateshead etc?? and just out of interest which chart are you referring to, because I must have missed that one?

    Sorry Neil, were clearly miles apart on this one.

  43. #43

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    I'm going back to this comment?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I wouldn't say you are dealing with a hostile audience, Ken. An old, cantankerous, fixed-in-our-ways audience maybe...

    ...
    I attempted to get the "free" rules, but it required an account, so setting one up for spam. Therefore, not free.

    Could you PM me a copy of the rules to me, so I can attempt a trial?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  44. #44

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    Getting back to the matter at hand, thanks for posting the pic of the P51 Ken. Recessed panelling looks like the trenches on the outside of the Death Star, but given it's a close up of a 1/200 scale plane probably won't be so bad once you paint it up. I for one would be interested in getting a few, especially if they turn out an accurate 109 G/K, albeit for WGS.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  45. #45

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    To end and to put the record straight:

    1. I have downloaded the rules, basic though they are and not wisdhing to pay £40 for something that may or not be an advancement.

    2. It doesn't impress me, that is my own honest opinion.

    3. I'm not childlike or make childish comments, although I play with toy soldiers and aeroplanes and boo hoo to anyone who says it's childish to indulge in playing with toys.

    4. And yes to me platting fog would be preferable.

    Take the comments as you wish.

    Enjoy your new game, I do hope it takes off. (There you go Tim a non sailing pun).

    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Sorry Tim, that was not intended as rude, vitriol, childish or otherwise. I was simply responding to the comments along the lines of "I would rather platt fog" etc based on what appeared (and actually has since been confirmed) as no actual information or experience. If you took offence I apologise. Furthermore I would appreciate you explain your experience of Blood Red Skies as I am genuinely interested in the view of someone else who has actually seen and or played the game.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  46. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    Getting back to the matter at hand, thanks for posting the pic of the P51 Ken. Recessed panelling looks like the trenches on the outside of the Death Star, but given it's a close up of a 1/200 scale plane probably won't be so bad once you paint it up. I for one would be interested in getting a few, especially if they turn out an accurate 109 G/K, albeit for WGS.
    Yup, another source of models is always welcome, though the packaging in squadrons (ok I know) of six plus the associated cards may be an issue if you only need a couple. No confirmed price but I expect the boxes will be somewhere around £20-25. The panel lines are not so obvious when viewed at hand, but are clearly and deliberately over scale. the choice of models in the initial release is unfathomable - but then again so was WGS to some extent. Again I have to stress these are resin pre production models so I cant really comment on the final plastic ones - have to wait and see. For WGS they may be a viable alternative for Shapeways or other suppliers but I don't see them competing on quality with the official WGS models any time soon, but obviously the price implication cannot be ignored.

    Ive posted up a more detailed look at the 109E model on the blog. I think it is a fair assessment - others may disagree.

    http://twtrb.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/...109e-emil.html

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    ?..the packaging in squadrons (ok I know) of six plus the associated cards may be an issue if you only need a couple.
    Foolish person - there is no such thing as "only needing a couple"
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  48. #48

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    the Emil looks pretty serviceable Ken, and six for about twenty quid is a reasonable price whichever game you choose to play with them.

    "He is wise who watches"

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    the Emil looks pretty serviceable Ken, and six for about twenty quid is a reasonable price whichever game you choose to play with them.
    Yes, but if they fixed the canopy I'd be a lot happier. Still, you cant have everything

  50. #50

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    I downloaded the rules and went over them last night. BRS reminds me more of the Axis & Allies Air Force Miniatures game than Wings of War/Glory. As a beer and pretzels diversion I can see where some would find it entertaining, but it did confirm this is not the game for me.

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