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Thread: If we had a WIKI...

  1. #1

    Default If we had a WIKI...

    .
    To skip ahead in this thread to the end result of the discussion, see https://linen.miraheze.org.




    Since the semi-official WIKI seems to have gone belly-up, I was daydreaming about what a nice WIKI would look like, specifically the part with one page per aeroplane:


    • Aircraft Section (Eventually there could be other top sections, e.g. pilots)
    • 1903-1922 section, 1923-1953 section, 1954+ section
    • Entente Section and Central Powers Section (for 1903-1922)


    Each aircraft page would have:
    • Aircraft Name
    • Alternate Names
    • A link to the Wikipedia page (for historical data, specifications, etc.). No need to repeat everything here. I think we can feel free to add to wikipedia pages if we find the current ones inadequate.
    • A paragraph or two of description.
    • A free-to-use historical picture, if available.
    • A small stats box:
      • Primary User Countries
      • Number Built
      • Date of Introduction
      • "Tailing Off Date" (approx.)
      • Crew
      • Engine
      • Top Speed
      • Armament
    • Gaming Section
      • Wings of Glory
        • Official or Unofficial Stats (deck, damage type, damage pts, alt, climb)
        • Plane cards
        • Tips for pilots
      • Other games could be added here, e.g. In Clouds of Glory, Blue Max, ...?
    • Miniatures Sources
      • 1:144
        • Ares/Nexus Versions (can we post pictures?)
        • Plastic and metal kits
        • Shapeways links
      • Other scales (1:285, 1:350, ...)
    • Gallery?



    Where would it be hosted? We'd want a place with minimal advertising and no yearly fees. (Eventually someone will grow tired of paying them and the site will disappear... it happens all the time.) We'd want a handful of trusted people to have "administrator privileges" so that it's not orphaned if one person disappears. One I've looked at is Miraheze (www.miraheze.org).


    Rules: everything posted needs to have no copyright problems...it can still be licensed but needs to be under Creative Commons or similar license. That means no posting of "official" game materials (pictures or text) unless we get permission, no posting of random pictures found on the internet of dubious provenance.

    Comments? Concerns? Additions?
    Last edited by ReducedAirFact; 02-10-2018 at 21:55.

  2. #2

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    Good idea but a lot of work to set up and to upkeep. You would need a really, really enthusiastic volunteer or two and there aren't that many of those about!

  3. #3

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    Let's create a Wiki Contribution medal and you will see how many volunteers you will have

  4. #4

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    Truly a labour of love to duplicate pretty much everything we have available on the forum. I'm struggling to see the benefit of putting the data elsewhere I must admit.

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Truly a labour of love to duplicate pretty much everything we have available on the forum. I'm struggling to see the benefit of putting the data elsewhere I must admit.
    It's a question of organization... today you have to find the unofficial stats excel sheet under files, plane cards under about five different Albums, Series listings in one of several threads, sources for Shapeways miniatures in another excel sheet, flying tips in a forum thread somewhere, etc.

  6. #6

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    Daryl, if you have enough of energy, try to contact Andrea + Keith + Eric and ask them about their oppinions. When someone starts with entusiasm, others join, I believe.

  7. #7

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    I think that, rather than a Wiki, we need a comprehensive Index with links to all the great information (some of which is buried) already on this site.

  8. #8

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    One thing that would be useful would be painting guides/plane pics in color (right..not likely). Maybe even squadron postings for that airframe.

    But like they said above "Dats a lot o work N stuff".....

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I think that, rather than a Wiki, we need a comprehensive Index with links to all the great information (some of which is buried) already on this site.


    a comprehensive index would be great.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    It's a question of organization... today you have to find the unofficial stats excel sheet under files, plane cards under about five different Albums, Series listings in one of several threads, sources for Shapeways miniatures in another excel sheet, flying tips in a forum thread somewhere, etc.
    Oh I get that, spending time and effort researching and exploring the forum is part of the fun of it, putting it all elsewhere would detract from the forum for me is all, when we could possibly achieve the same with one sticky thread and links as mentioned already.
    Top tip - merge all your Excel sheets - makes life so much easier working with just one 'Wings' document tailored for personal use.

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    It's a question of organization... today you have to find the unofficial stats excel sheet under files, plane cards under about five different Albums, Series listings in one of several threads, sources for Shapeways miniatures in another excel sheet, flying tips in a forum thread somewhere, etc.
    Some albums containing cards:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=2850
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=2851
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3986
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3985
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=2929
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3056
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3057

    None of which are 100% in conformance with the stats, official or unofficial.

    This one is, but is very much a work in progress. On hold now till after Wintercon. About 100 new plane types.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3984

  12. #12

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    Thanks for that Zoe, I have added them to my FAQ & walk through threads.

    "He is wise who watches"

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I think that, rather than a Wiki, we need a comprehensive Index with links to all the great information (some of which is buried) already on this site.
    To right mate.

  14. #14

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    " o/~ If I had a wiki,/
    Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.... o/~ "

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    " o/~ If I had a wiki,/Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.... o/~ "
    I was thinking that myself the other day.

    I know a WIKI isn't the perfect solution for everyone, but I really like the idea of a single place you can go to get usage charts, plane stats, plane cards, miniatures sources, etc. So -- undaunted -- I've roughed out the prototypes of two pages, the Nieuport 17 and A.E.G. G.IV (those two picked somewhat at random). I didn't post real plane cards or Ares miniatures photos because I don't have the respective authors' permissions to do soš, but I did post some blurry samples to show what it could look like. The nice thing about a wiki is that anyone can edit and update it, whether it's a card artist adding a new plane card or the stats committee making an edit or a miniatures provider adding a new addition. Give the pages a look and feel free to add suggestions here:


    š All images on the wiki must be under Creative Commons Share-Alike license or public domain.

  16. #16

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    I've added in pages for each manufacturer (e.g. Nieuport) with "empty links" to each of the plane types (e.g. Nieuport 11, Nieuport 12, ...). I've left off any types that never got beyond the prototype stage and pure trainers. The result? 526 individual aeroplane-type pages to go. Well, at one a day, I can finish those off about in time for the 100-year anniversary of the armistice.

    It's interesting, though, to know there were 500ish distinct and interesting aeroplane types in WWI that saw combat missions.

  17. #17

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    So why not to stick to official cards / minis? Stil a huge number, but not as much...
    I can take two or three planes.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    I was thinking that myself the other day.

    I know a WIKI isn't the perfect solution for everyone, but I really like the idea of a single place you can go to get usage charts, plane stats, plane cards, miniatures sources, etc. So -- undaunted -- I've roughed out the prototypes of two pages, the Nieuport 17 and A.E.G. G.IV (those two picked somewhat at random). I didn't post real plane cards or Ares miniatures photos because I don't have the respective authors' permissions to do soš, but I did post some blurry samples to show what it could look like. The nice thing about a wiki is that anyone can edit and update it, whether it's a card artist adding a new plane card or the stats committee making an edit or a miniatures provider adding a new addition. Give the pages a look and feel free to add suggestions here:


    š All images on the wiki must be under Creative Commons Share-Alike license or public domain.
    I like this wiki idea, and I like the format of these two example pages. An index to this site would be nice, but is unlikely to come about without a decent search ability. Whenever I try to use the search function on this site, I can almost never find what I'm looking for.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdavis View Post
    I like this wiki idea, and I like the format of these two example pages. An index to this site would be nice, but is unlikely to come about without a decent search ability. Whenever I try to use the search function on this site, I can almost never find what I'm looking for.
    There are probably two good reasons search wasn't doing much when you tried it:
    1. I only had a handful of pages up and working at the time, so there wasn't much to search for. Now I've at least got stub pages in place for most plane types. (Admittedly they aren't very exciting in "stub state".)
    2. Secondly, I need to put in some "aliases" so that a search for, say, "AEG G.IV" will return the same thing as "A.E.G. G.IV".


    You can also start with one of the two plane icons at the top-level page and work your way down, e.g. Central Powers > Fokker > Fokker D.III.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    There are probably two good reasons search wasn't doing much when you tried it:
    1. I only had a handful of pages up and working at the time, so there wasn't much to search for. Now I've at least got stub pages in place for most plane types. (Admittedly they aren't very exciting in "stub state".)
    2. Secondly, I need to put in some "aliases" so that a search for, say, "AEG G.IV" will return the same thing as "A.E.G. G.IV".


    You can also start with one of the two plane icons at the top-level page and work your way down, e.g. Central Powers > Fokker > Fokker D.III.
    Sorry, I meant that the wingsofwar.org forum is very difficult to search. Some have suggested that a wiki isn't needed because we have so much information on wingsofwar.org, but I'm saying that the search ability on this site doesn't work very well, and that an index for the information on wingsofwar.org is unlikely to ever be created.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdavis View Post
    Sorry, I meant that the wingsofwar.org forum is very difficult to search. Some have suggested that a wiki isn't needed because we have so much information on wingsofwar.org, but I'm saying that the search ability on this site doesn't work very well, and that an index for the information on wingsofwar.org is unlikely to ever be created.
    Ah, thanks for clarifying. Yes, that's one of the things I'm hoping to improve: today the stats are in this file, the miniatures list is over here, the plane cards are scattered among six galleries, etc. All stellar work on their own, but difficult to browse.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by brdavis View Post
    Sorry, I meant that the wingsofwar.org forum is very difficult to search. Some have suggested that a wiki isn't needed because we have so much information on wingsofwar.org, but I'm saying that the search ability on this site doesn't work very well, and that an index for the information on wingsofwar.org is unlikely to ever be created.
    One of the great unused functions of this site are thread tags; virtually none are tagged (much like some tumblr sites I go to).
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  23. #23

    Default Wiki Update

    Update: The "Wings of Linen" Wiki is still coming along at https://linen.miraheze.org. I've got all of the unofficial stats on their respective pages, along with sources for miniatures including Ares, Nexus, Shapeways, Valom, Red Eagle, Reviresco, CinC, and Heroics & Ros. (Did I miss any?)

    I've got most of Guntruck's cards on the pages and Zoe's originals. Putting the cards on the wiki is tricky because their provenance is not very well documented... frequently someone would post other peoples' cards in their album just as a way of collecting them together, or someone would take a card by someone else and correct the numbers. Those are all laudable efforts! But it leaves it difficult determining who owns the copyright on the card.

    German planes and some Entente types have date-usage timelines where the width of a country's line shows how many of a type of plane were active.

    There is still a of work to add a paragraph or three of description to each plane type (I've mostly done the ones I had already prepared text for in Shapeways) and turn stub pages into real ones.

    As this is a Wiki, anyone who is interested in making a positive contribution is certainly invited. The wiki itself is "public property", just like Wikipedia.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    One of the great unused functions of this site are thread tags; virtually none are tagged (much like some tumblr sites I go to).
    Karl
    I think anybody can add tags and rate thread with stars. I try to tag at least my threads. Is there anybody who does this too?

  25. #25

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    Never heard of tags on Forums......................

    How does it work?
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  26. #26

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    So let's have an inroduction to tagging (threads, not walls )

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Everybody can easily add a tag to the thread. Ehn you simply click on the tag after, site will find you all threads with the same tag.

    Of course, the best would be when all members will be used them, but...better something then nothing...

  27. #27

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    Certainly something to do in my spare time
    And it will make searching this great heap of knowledge easier
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  28. #28

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    I have read this a few times and everything I see mentioned is already here. I don't see any advertising and a point mentioned is its free. "no yearly fees. (Eventually someone will grow tired of paying them and the site will disappear... it happens all the time.)". I have been here for 6 years and there are people that have been here much longer who make many contributions to this site. The site is free and you only pay if you want certain privileges. On WIKI, which I assume is WIKIPEDIA, I receive pleas to donate to keep it running. I donate to them, because I use it, and I am a member here. What's the difference between being a member here or making a donation to WIKI to keep it running ? Here there are a number of people, many I have had the honor of meeting, that you get to know. On WIKI there is no interaction, just information which you can get from the people here that make this a great place. Don't mean to offend anyone but just my thoughts.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    I have read this a few times and everything I see mentioned is already here. I don't see any advertising and a point mentioned is its free. "no yearly fees. (Eventually someone will grow tired of paying them and the site will disappear... it happens all the time.)". I have been here for 6 years and there are people that have been here much longer who make many contributions to this site. The site is free and you only pay if you want certain privileges. On WIKI, which I assume is WIKIPEDIA, I receive pleas to donate to keep it running. I donate to them, because I use it, and I am a member here. What's the difference between being a member here or making a donation to WIKI to keep it running ? Here there are a number of people, many I have had the honor of meeting, that you get to know. On WIKI there is no interaction, just information which you can get from the people here that make this a great place. Don't mean to offend anyone but just my thoughts.
    Hi Bob,

    The wiki is not intended to be competition to or replacement for the Wings of Glory Aerodrome (wingsofwar.org). As you sagely point out, it certainly can't provide the sense of community the Aerodrome provides. A wiki is lousy place for discussions, painting galleries, Q&A, campaigns, after-action reports, book reviews, announcements, national discussions, and all the other things the Aerodrome does very well. But the Aerodrome is not designed to be a good place to find logically-organized, current information -- that's not its specialty or format. Nor should it be.

    Fortunately, there is no reason to pick between one and the other. They can co-exist quite happily. This isn't a zero-sum game.

    The wiki is more intended to help with this kind of question-set: "I'd like to get an AEG C.IV. Where can I get a model? What WoG stats should it have? Can I get a plane card to go with it? Would it be historically appropriate for an April 1917 scenario?"

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I had no idea that I had implied this was some sort of competition or that you could read the initial post as being in comparison to this site. It wasn't intended that way.

  30. #30

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    I think both can live together. I started several threads "like wiki" here (General Overviews, for example), but this is not quiet easy to maintain. I support all volunteer projects for WoG and have not a suspicion there should be some moneymining.
    Anyway, good to talk about it.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    Fortunately, there is no reason to pick between one and the other. They can co-exist quite happily. This isn't a zero-sum game.

    The wiki is more intended to help with this kind of question-set: "I'd like to get an AEG C.IV. Where can I get a model? What WoG stats should it have? Can I get a plane card to go with it? Would it be historically appropriate for an April 1917 scenario?"

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I had no idea that I had implied this was some sort of competition or that you could read the initial post as being in comparison to this site. It wasn't intended that way.
    I didn't see any such implication myself.
    You are absolutely correct in that this site, great fun as it is, is a fantastic source of piles and piles of knowledge and information which is almost impossible to locate by searching!
    Your "question-set" above is exactly the kind of information I want but just can't find by searching the Forum.

    Personally, I would be happy to pay fees to help support the kind of Wiki you are proposing.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  32. #32

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    Sorry if I misinterpreted your intentions. They would compliment each other in many ways as you have pointed out. Your idea just shows how people in here think of things to expand the hobby.

  33. #33

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    Update: I'm still plugging away at the "Wings of Linen" Wiki at https://linen.miraheze.org during my spare hours, and I like the way it is rounding out. Where the copyright owner of plane cards is clear, they're posted directly on the site; where it is murky, there is instead a hotlink back to the card here on the Aerodrome site. I've got cards and/or links from all our Aerodrome card artists (at least, the ones I know about). There are introductory paragraphs on all French aeroplanes and about half the rest (with the British planes currently with the most stubs). All the miniature sources (including Ares) are already linked there.

    As always, anyone is free to contribute. There is a FAQ on the front page and some instructions on posting card images or links. They hardest part is being careful about copyright. I wish there were an easier way to determine which things were in the public domain -- it is pretty difficult figuring out when an author died and their "copyright countdown" began, and the laws vary from one country to another. I blame Disney.

  34. #34

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    I had one started before Andrea started the "semi-official" one--and he knew about it as soon as I launched--but darnedif I can remember the URL.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  35. #35

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    After several more weeks of pouring through source books and making additions...I'm happy to announce that Phase I of the Wings of Linen WIKI is done! https://linen.miraheze.org

    What does that mean?
    • 563 pages on individual airplane types, with only forty still as stubs (mostly because I don't have much data on those types).
    • 79 pages on manufacturers or designers.
    • Wings of Glory plane statistics where known (official or from the committee).
    • Hundreds of Wings of Glory plane cards directly posted or linked to the appropriate pages.
    • Statistics on the planes: dates, engine, armament, etc.
    • Sources for miniatures in 1:144 through 1:350 scale: Ares, Nexus, Shapeways, Valom, Red Eagle, Reviresco, CinC, Goblintooth, H&R.
    • Usage timeline charts where known.
    • Orthographic drawings where available.
    • Bibliography & references.
    • The completist obsessive-complusive in me can take a break for a few weeks. :-)


    Feel free to peruse a random page (link here), make suggestions, corrections, or other contributions.

    There are two special categories currently:
    1. Types for which we have a 1:144 model but no WoG stats (attention: stats committee)
    2. Types for which we have a 1:144 model but no WoG plane cards (attention: card artists)

  36. #36

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    Great effort Daryl, I've already spent an hour or so perusing the wiki.


  37. #37

  38. #38

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    Only looked at a few of the planes but great job.

  39. #39

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    Incredible work. REP! Wish there was a medal.

  40. #40

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    Fantastic job!!
    One little thing would be fine to add - the link to painting showcase official thread for particular airplane.
    Nothing necessary. Just an idea. Today I spent unadequately much time to find the thread for MiG-3 for example.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kubajs View Post
    Fantastic job!!
    One little thing would be fine to add - the link to painting showcase official thread for particular airplane.
    Nothing necessary. Just an idea. Today I spent unadequately much time to find the thread for MiG-3 for example.
    Thanks! I'll think about the painting showcase question. I'd love to post some nice color paintings or photos of the planes and models, but most of those would run into copyright problems. Links to other sites aren't generally a problem, though, so that might work.

  42. #42

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    Better get back to making more cards.. the AEG G.IVk is a pain...

  43. #43

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    Very nice; I plan of a leisurely look soon. Yard work today
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  44. #44

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    Great work on the files, just noticed one thing, you have Friedrichshafen G.III as having no stats.
    The Friedrichshafen G.III is an official aircraft from the Wings of War Flight of the Giants box set, think I got a card also for this one Ill try and post

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    Great work on the files, just noticed one thing, you have Friedrichshafen G.III as having no stats.
    The Friedrichshafen G.III is an official aircraft from the Wings of War Flight of the Giants box set, think I got a card also for this one Ill try and post
    There are a handful of planes like that, where I don't have a copy of the model and all the internet-pictures obscured the stats on the stand. So any updates are appreciated.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    There are a handful of planes like that, where I don't have a copy of the model and all the internet-pictures obscured the stats on the stand. So any updates are appreciated.
    Hi Daryl

    Friedrichshafen G.III XD. 25. 2

    Crew 3. pilot (3) front gun (1). Rear and ventral gun (2). At least I think its ventral
    Guns all B
    Ill try and get the cards scanned and posted up here

  47. #47

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    I thought it might be useful to add categories (lists) of planes with a model available in 1:144, 1:200, 1:285-288, 1:300, and 1:350. (Those are all links.)

    It's remarkable: as of this writing, at 1:144 scale there are 252 WWI plane types with models available from one source or another. That is roughly half of the plane types that saw combat in the war (even in tiny numbers).

  48. #48

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    After the little 'down time' of the Forums, and external Wiki seems better than ever. I do think the writeup for the AEG G.IV is a bit incorrect. Page 22 of Windsock Datafile 51 on the AEG G.IV shows a 1000kg PUW bomb being loaded on such an aircraft. I don't think that would be considered 'light.'
    So how many books are in your personal library?

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    Hi Daryl

    Friedrichshafen G.III XD. 25. 2

    Crew 3. pilot (3) front gun (1). Rear and ventral gun (2). At least I think its ventral
    Guns all B
    Ill try and get the cards scanned and posted up here
    In addition Daryl from the Updated Tactical Walkthrough:
    Friedrichshafen G.III - XD deck
    Strengths - Uber Tough, 3 MG positions (G.IIIa also has gun tunnel)
    Weakness - 1 pilot; 2 engines; only 2 MG positions manned at a time !
    Users - Central Powers 17/Q3 to 18/Q4
    This aircraft has a crew of 3, is similar to the Gotha, and is another uber tough machine with 25 damage points, very slow speed with a climb rate of 5 and a max altitude of 10. It may suffer for having one pilot and having just two engines will mean three damages will take it out (1 or 2 damages are scored per engine hit). Having 2 gunners can be a weakness as if one goes down it can become very vulnerable ! This aircraft has a front, rear & side MG - only rear or side can be fired after each movement phase not both as they are operated by the rear gunner - Tip: don't get into its right front quarter or you may receive two lots of love !
    If you have a G.IIIa variant it has a gun tunnel so when playing altitude rules ignore the blind spot for targets at lower altitude as they can be engaged by the rear gunner via a tunnel through the aircraft's underside.
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...Aircraft-lt-lt

    "He is wise who watches"

  50. #50

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    Thanks for the updates Dave and Robert. I'll be happy to make those corrections when I get a chance!

    I will mention, however, that the Wings of Linen WIKI is open for editing by anyone. (At least, anyone making constructive additions.) I have always hoped that over time it would grow into more of a community effort, sort of like a hyper-focused version of Wikipedia. Creating an account is simple, and I think you can even edit anonymously if you prefer. While some of the constructs for tables and charts are a bit arcane, editing of already-existing text is straightforward. I'm not trying to push the edits off on you, I'm just pointing out that the option is there if you want to try it.

    The only hard restriction we have is to avoid the use of any copyrighted works (at least, unless we have the permission of the owner). I would love to have example paint jobs for each plane like the ones by Bob Pearson, but the copyright line is one that we cannot cross.

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