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Thread: A new material: HP plastic (PA12)

  1. #1

    Default A new material: HP plastic (PA12)

    There's a new material in trial phases with Shapeways: "black and grey HP strong and flexible". First the caveats: Shapeways is still messing around with the materials and these new printers. The price will almost certainly change (perhaps in our favor, since the printers are rumored to be fast) and the material tolerances and minimums may change. Right now both the price and the minimums are the same as good old White Strong and Flexible. We do not know when this new material will be available for general purpose, so don't hold off thinking it will be soon. It may be tomorrow; it may be two years from now, so don't hold your breath. I'd guess it will be at least a few months as they experiment with pricing and tolerances.

    I'll start with the summary, based on my limited observations. Quality is the print quality -- flatness of surface, detail, etc.; Price is better=cheaper; Strength is how it's likely to stand up to play, storage, shipping.
    Material: WSF HP-SF FUD
    Print Quality Good Better Best (by far)
    Price Cheap ???¹ Expensive
    Strength Robust but can warp Strong, minimal warping Fragile
    ¹ = Originally it was the same price as WSF; currently it is double; hopefully Shapeways will find a middle ground.

    Here are some photos of Brandenburg C.I's in each material. They're all different series of Brandenburgs, so they differ slightly in details. I'll only show the HP gray material once -- it's got a lot of color variation that makes it hard to photograph, but the HP black is basically the same print that has been dyed, so you can expect the HP gray and HP black to be the same after they've been primed.

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    Now a closeup of the crew, which gives you a good idea of detail level. I held the flash at a shallow angle to make surface texture more visible.
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    Finally, the engine area, where you can see detail on the exhaust pipes and wings:
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    If I get a chance, I'll prime each model (with no further surface-prep) and post some pictures.

    I think this new material makes a good compromise between price and quality, and its strength is just what we need for gaming pieces.

    Full disclosure: I do work for HP, but I don't work in printers and I'm not going to see any HP incentive from this. I just want WoG fans to have good alternative sources for models.
    Last edited by ReducedAirFact; 12-27-2017 at 15:00.

  2. #2

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    Good to see Shapeways looking to better their printing. Quality looks ever so slightly better than WSF but hard to tell with one example.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Good to see Shapeways looking to better their printing. Quality looks ever so slightly better than WSF but hard to tell with one example.
    Yeah, and these pictures are not very forgiving since they are extreme closeups with a macro lens. There's a lot of detail and fuzz there that you would overlook with the naked eye.

  4. #4

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    Exciting news, thanks for updating us

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  5. #5

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    Yes, thanks for posting this.

    Any improvement in Shapeways prints has to be good news.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    There's a lot of detail and fuzz there that you would overlook with the naked eye.
    Yeh, esp. my eyes
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  7. #7

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    A second batch of aeroplanes in the HP black plastic has arrived. This time I thought I'd try some really big planes¹: an Austrian Brandenburg W.13 and a Curtiss H.12 "Large America". These are big planes, the Curtiss being about the same size as a Felixstowe F.2. At 1:144, that's an 8" wingspan (20cm), and the W.13 comes in at 5-3/4" (14.5cm) wingspan.

    The planes arrived with no visible warping from their packing and shipping, which is unusual for a plane this big. I think this material is much less vulnerable to such problems -- it seems very dense and strong. I've dropped them from desk height onto a carpeted floor and they've just bounced -- I have zero fear of breaking these under normal usage.

    The surface is much less fuzzy than WSF and yet you can still easily see details like wing ribs that are only 0.3mm in size. Again, it doesn't have the precision of FUD. But a Large America at this scale in FUD would cost you $80-100 instead of $20-30, and it would probably break the first time anyone tipped over its stand. (Not to mention long FUD wings seem prone to sagging.)

    It's hard to take good pictures of something that is completely black, but here's the results, including a couple close-ups. By the way, I've asked around at Shapeways and the difference between the HP Black and HP Gray (other than the coloring) is that the Black goes through the polisher. I wouldn't usually recommend that for planes, as it takes off too much surface-detail, but this material is strong enough I think it holds up well. So both black and gray will be good options.

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    ¹ = these are new designs, by the way, currently available in WSF for 1:144

  8. #8

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    Might be worth taking a crack at one of these days.

  9. #9

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    It will be interesting to see how this develops. Thank you for telling us about it, Daryl.

  10. #10

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    So it is possible to go ahead and order a currently WSF plane in the new material, and expect good results? At least at the present time? WSF is just too grainy, and frosted detail is just to brittle.

  11. #11

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    I, too, think this material makes a good compromise of properties for the gaming table.

    Just a couple weeks ago it went from a material where you had to be the designer AND sign up for their beta program to a material where any designer could order their own prints in it. That's a good sign -- it's usually the last step before making the material generally available for anyone to order.

    The bad part is that Shapeways simultaneously doubled the price of the new materials! This has drawn a lot of negative feedback and questioning (including from me). While I can understand how the powder might be a different price than WSF, and the overall printing time might be faster or slower, but I cannot understand how other factors such as handling would happen to be double that of WSF. I can only hope that better prices from competition -- or maybe just a better scientific study of their underlying prices with this new material -- will result in reductions. Their initial pricing was a complete guess (100% the same as WSF), which is understandable because they had no data to base it on. Unfortunately this new pricing just seems like a different complete guess.

    I guess I can only say, "we will see."

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    I, too, think this material makes a good compromise of properties for the gaming table.

    Just a couple weeks ago it went from a material where you had to be the designer AND sign up for their beta program to a material where any designer could order their own prints in it. That's a good sign -- it's usually the last step before making the material generally available for anyone to order.

    The bad part is that Shapeways simultaneously doubled the price of the new materials! This has drawn a lot of negative feedback and questioning (including from me). While I can understand how the powder might be a different price than WSF, and the overall printing time might be faster or slower, but I cannot understand how other factors such as handling would happen to be double that of WSF. I can only hope that better prices from competition -- or maybe just a better scientific study of their underlying prices with this new material -- will result in reductions. Their initial pricing was a complete guess (100% the same as WSF), which is understandable because they had no data to base it on. Unfortunately this new pricing just seems like a different complete guess.

    I guess I can only say, "we will see."
    But I suppose a non-designer can't order somebody else's design in it for now. Darn.

  13. #13

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    There's a workaround in that the designer could order it and have it shipped elsewhere, but they haven't opened up general-availability for it yet. I'm hoping they reduce the pricing before they do.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    There's a workaround in that the designer could order it and have it shipped elsewhere, but they haven't opened up general-availability for it yet. I'm hoping they reduce the pricing before they do.
    Thanks for keeping us in the loop, Daryl. Any updates since November?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Thanks for keeping us in the loop, Daryl. Any updates since November?
    Nothing. I was hoping they'd open it up for the holiday season, but no such luck. The feedback has been pretty universal that no one can understand or agrees with their recent repricing of the HP materials.

  16. #16

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    Shapeways made some pricing changes lately, and one of them works in our favor: they've reduced the prices on moderately-sized models in HP PA12 material. (As you've seen above it has some nice properties.)

    "Where is it price competitive with WSF/Versatile Plastic?"
    you ask? The prices work well for moderately-sized models like your typical two-seater. For smaller planes, there is a minimum model price that kicks in, and the minimum price is higher for PA12. So versatile plastic is still the cheapest choice there. For large models like two-engine bombers, the PA12 has a high price also -- I'm not sure why. But for ones in the Goldilocks sizing, like a typical two-seater, the price is pretty competitive. Close enough that I'm starting to make gray-PA12 the default for two-seater models.

    So the next time you put in an order, you might check to see if you can get a plane in PA12 material and see if you like it better than Versatile Plastic/WSF.

  17. #17

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    Thanks for that info Daryl. I'll be looking at it next time I put in an order.

  18. #18

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    How is the texture of the HP compared to the Versatile.

  19. #19

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    Thanks Daryl. I'll check it out next time I'm on.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  20. #20

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    Cheers Darryl - I had noticed it looked more favourable too.
    I'll try and add it to a few of my older models.

    I've been making mostly ships for a while and they take soooooo long I thought I'd have a go at WW1 again - completed a Dolphin in 3 days!

  21. #21

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    How did the Dolphin turn out?
    http://shpws.me/RVkW

    http://shpws.me/RVl2

    I'm pretty happy with it

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by decapod View Post
    http://shpws.me/RVkW

    http://shpws.me/RVl2

    I'm pretty happy with it
    Paul, good to see you back into the WWI airplane designing game. Time for me to make sure I have all of your planes on my Shapeways list.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Paul, good to see you back into the WWI airplane designing game. Time for me to make sure I have all of your planes on my Shapeways list.
    Indeed, I will try to keep the models list on the Wings of Linen wiki up to date as well. These days I see a very occasional addition by Kampfflieger and whatever I'm up to.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by decapod View Post
    I've been making mostly ships for a while and they take soooooo long I thought I'd have a go at WW1 again - completed a Dolphin in 3 days!
    I see you have a new (to me anyway) World War I freighter. Rather expensive in 1/700 scale. I have to finish the ones I already have before I order it.
    So how many books are in your personal library?

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Paul, good to see you back into the WWI airplane designing game. Time for me to make sure I have all of your planes on my Shapeways list.
    It really has been about 4 years since I did anything WW1 - Though I've done a few WW2 aircraft.


    Robert - the EFC1057 is a bit of a beast, quite large.

    If anyone you know has a 3D printer, I also put those freighters on Thingiverse for free at 1/350th - they can easily be scaled to 1/700.

    https://www.thingiverse.com/decapod/designs

    I've printed a few of my ship models at that scale on an FDM printer.



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