Me 262 Enigma

[andron234]

As most of you know at the end of the war (WW2) the Germans were dreaming up new "Wonder weapons" In early 1943 a new idea of reusing old and outdated airframes was thought of by the Luftwaffe high command (OKL), and became known as the "Mistel Combination" (Mistletoe) also known as Vater und Sohn (Father and son) after a popular German strip cartoon,
The basic plan was to mount a fighter plane on top of a tripod attached to a war-weary bomber, with a modified nose cone, normally a Junkers Ju 88, the nose filled with explosive, the fighter would control both planes, after flying to the target the fighter would separate it's self, from the lower plane and return to base, the lower part gliding towards its target.
After initial testing, by Luftwaffe test unit KG 200, the results were promising enough to begin a program in earnest, code-named "Beethoven" and eventually, entering into full operational service in 1944.
The known Combination are as follows

• Mistel Prototype: Ju 88 A-4 and Bf 109 F-4
• Mistel 1: Ju 88 A-4 and Bf 109 F-4
• Mistel S1: Trainer version of Mistel 1
• Mistel 2: Ju 88 G-1 and Fw 190 A-8 or F-8
• Mistel S2: Trainer version of Mistel 2
• Mistel 3A: Ju 88 A-4 and Fw 190 A-8
• Mistel S3A: Trainer version of Mistel 3A
• Mistel 3B: Ju 88 H-4 and Fw 190 A-8
• Mistel 3C: Ju 88 G-10 and Fw 190 F-8
• Mistel Führungsmaschine: Ju 88 A-4/H-4 and Fw 190 A-8
• Mistel 4: Ju 287 and Me 262
• Mistel 5: Arado E.377A and He162

Now here comes the "Enigma" which is difficult to understand, A Messerschmitt Me 262 on top of a Messerschmitt Me 262,
Why was a Jet fighter, which was needed to defend the "Fatherland" was used as a bomb?

[Naharaht]

Shortage of pilots?

[milcoll73]

because hitler was obsessed with everything being a bomber of one sort or another. the more i look at the pic the more i think its a diorama with a photo background. i notice none of the tires are bulging due to weight and the front tire on the right side of the rig isnt even touching the "ground".

[OldGuy59]

because hitler was obsessed with everything being a bomber of one sort or another. the more i look at the pic the more i think its a diorama with a photo background. i notice none of the tires are bulging due to weight and the front tire on the right side of the rig isnt even touching the "ground".

HyperScale.com -Me262 Mistel Preview

www.48specialmodels.com - Mistel 4 Me 262 A1/A2-Me 262 A

[milcoll73]

HyperScale.com -Me262 Mistel Preview

www.48specialmodels.com - Mistel 4 Me 262 A1/A2-Me 262 A

aha! i thought so.

[andron234]

aha! i thought so.

You lost me, are you saying you think it's a model / Fake photo?

[clipper1801]

That won't stop the elves . . .

[OldGuy59]

HyperScale.com -Me262 Mistel Preview

www.48specialmodels.com - Mistel 4 Me 262 A1/A2-Me 262 A

aha! i thought so.

You lost me, are you saying you think it's a model / Fake photo?

It is a photo of a model.

http://i-am-modelist.com/2012/01/26/mistel-4/

[milcoll73]

You lost me, are you saying you think it's a model / Fake photo?

yep

[andron234]

This is driving me mad, almost every photo I find on the internet seems to be fake, I have to admire their work, BUT.........

[clipper1801]

This is driving me mad, almost every photo I find on the internet seems to be fake, I have to admire their work, BUT.........

Welcome to the new world . . . Everything is virtual from these days on . . .

[Rabbit 3]

This is driving me mad, almost every photo I find on the internet seems to be fake, I have to admire their work, BUT.........

Well, it`s a kit so presumably there must be some real info that the manufacturer based the model on, even if it was a paper project only.
Seems like a plausable "what if" at any rate.

[ChesterB]

We met a Mistel pilot years ago at an air show in Dallas. The signed print from our meeting is at our now adult son's house. The pilot,was amazing. He was astounded how well he was received at airshows. The air Museum recorded his story that day, they have an ongoing program to do that for all vets. I was there to hear about his last Mistel mission. He took out a bridge to slow the Russian advance. He was then shot down by Russians and crashed - in his own sister's yard. He played dead in the wreckage to fool Russian infantry. When they were gone his sister came out of hiding and helped him out of the wrecked 109. Together they fled West to American lines. He got very emotional at the end. Most Mistel pilots thought these were one way missions. He survived and was saved by his sister. What a gentleman.

[milcoll73]

This is driving me mad, almost every photo I find on the internet seems to be fake, I have to admire their work, BUT.........

there seems to be a lot of that these days. they crop up fairly regularly on several ww2 and ww1 interest group pages that im a member of on facebook sparking varying degrees of debate.

[milcoll73]

We met a Mistel pilot years ago at an air show in Dallas. The signed print from our meeting is at our now adult son's house. The pilot,was amazing. He was astounded how well he was received at airshows. The air Museum recorded his story that day, they have an ongoing program to do that for all vets. I was there to hear about his last Mistel mission. He took out a bridge to slow the Russian advance. He was then shot down by Russians and crashed - in his own sister's yard. He played dead in the wreckage to fool Russian infantry. When they were gone his sister came out of hiding and helped him out of the wrecked 109. Together they fled West to American lines. He got very emotional at the end. Most Mistel pilots thought these were one way missions. He survived and was saved by his sister. What a gentleman.

fascinating story! thanks for sharing!!!

[Guntruck]

From 'Me 262 Volume 2' by J Richard Smith and Eddie J Creek:

"By 1944, the problem with the conventionally powered Mistel was its vulnerability to enemy fighters before the lower component could be released on its target. Therefore, in November 1944, a proposal was put forward to use two Me 262s as the upper and lower components of a new Mistel 4. The upper component was to be a Me 262 A-2a/U2 with the Bomberkanzel (bomber nose) housing a second crew member who would help to aim the lower component at its target. It was estimated that this upper component would have a take-off weight of 6,985 kg (15,400 lbs) with a fuel load of 2,570 litres (680 Imp gallons).

The combination was mounted on a special five-wheeled trolley weighing 20 tons developed by Rheinmetal-Borsig. The lower Me 262 was mounted on the trolley, after which the mother aircraft would be lifted on top and connected to it by struts fitted with explosive bolts. Take-off was accomplished with the aid of four Walter 501 rocket units, the five-wheeled trolley being jettisoned shortly afterward in the manner of the early At 234 prototypes.

Three versions of the lower component were proposed, known as the Ausfuhrung A, B and C. Version A was to have an armoured fuselage nose with liquid explosive, Version B was to have the forward fuselage formed of solid explosive with similar material in other fuselage areas, and Version C was to have the forward fuselage of Version B but with liquid explosive in other areas. The first combination would have a total take-off weight of 16,900 kg (37,250 lbs), the second of 18,635 kg (41,080 lbs) and the third 17,100 kg (37,720 lbs).

Two Me 262s were delivered for conversion as Mistel during December 1944 but, as far as is known, the composite never flew before the end of the war. ...... There was also a proposal to use the Me 262with a Ju 88 lower component (possibly jet powered) and some authors have claimed (although this has yet to be confirmed by documentary evidence) that there was a project to combine the Me 262 with a Ju 287 as the explosive carrier"

[Hedeby]

When it comes to finding the actual facts within what appears to be fake news - Guntruck is your man.
fascinating thread this full of twists and truths, truths and untruths - we need more of this on the forum, well done chaps

[Jager]

Lots of very interesting (and weird) paper projects in the 3rd Reich, esp. towards the end of the war.
Now if they had gotten a radar homer in the lower part, even a 1st gen model, that might have scared the navies a bit
(still had range to deal with though ).
Karl

[andron234]

Do you have the ISBN number Steve, re 'Me 262 Volume 2' ?

From 'Me 262 Volume 2' by J Richard Smith and Eddie J Creek:

"By 1944, the problem with the conventionally powered Mistel was its vulnerability to enemy fighters before the lower component could be released on its target. Therefore, in November 1944, a proposal was put forward to use two Me 262s as the upper and lower components of a new Mistel 4. The upper component was to be a Me 262 A-2a/U2 with the Bomberkanzel (bomber nose) housing a second crew member who would help to aim the lower component at its target. It was estimated that this upper component would have a take-off weight of 6,985 kg (15,400 lbs) with a fuel load of 2,570 litres (680 Imp gallons).

The combination was mounted on a special five-wheeled trolley weighing 20 tons developed by Rheinmetal-Borsig. The lower Me 262 was mounted on the trolley, after which the mother aircraft would be lifted on top and connected to it by struts fitted with explosive bolts. Take-off was accomplished with the aid of four Walter 501 rocket units, the five-wheeled trolley being jettisoned shortly afterward in the manner of the early At 234 prototypes.

Three versions of the lower component were proposed, known as the Ausfuhrung A, B and C. Version A was to have an armoured fuselage nose with liquid explosive, Version B was to have the forward fuselage formed of solid explosive with similar material in other fuselage areas, and Version C was to have the forward fuselage of Version B but with liquid explosive in other areas. The first combination would have a total take-off weight of 16,900 kg (37,250 lbs), the second of 18,635 kg (41,080 lbs) and the third 17,100 kg (37,720 lbs).

Two Me 262s were delivered for conversion as Mistel during December 1944 but, as far as is known, the composite never flew before the end of the war. ...... There was also a proposal to use the Me 262with a Ju 88 lower component (possibly jet powered) and some authors have claimed (although this has yet to be confirmed by documentary evidence) that there was a project to combine the Me 262 with a Ju 287 as the explosive carrier"

[Jager]

Do you have the ISBN number Steve, re 'Me 262 Volume 2' ?

Probably this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Me-262-Two-Ri...+Eddie+J+Creek
Karl

[Guntruck]

That's the one Karl.

[Jager]

I don't have the for the 262 books; the Fw.190 set is fantastic! And now quite pricey
Karl

[Guntruck]

Just pre-ordered the reprint of the Do 335 book and the new Condor book. That's 95 squids I won't see again

[Jager]

Just pre-ordered the reprint of the Do 335 book and the new Condor book. That's 95 squids I won't see again

Oh you just had to mention the 335!
Karl

[Guntruck]

Oh you just had to mention the 335!
Karl

Thought that might push a button or two

[Flying Helmut]

"Pushed buttons?"

I think it's more like someone just got unzipped!

[clipper1801]

Why stop there, why not a 635?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Like this Steve?

[Guntruck]

Not seen that illustration before. What's the bottom bit supposed to be?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I'll have a look see, can't remember where I found it might take some searching.

Neil

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Found it quicker than I thought.

ME 262A-1a control aircraft with Junkers JU 287B-1 explosive carrying drone.

If that helps?

Neil

[Guntruck]

Interesting. The only bits that appear to be left of the original 287 is the wings and tail. even the engines are smaller units and moved to the wings.

[Jager]

Rather weird; take off 2 of the engines, and pack it HE? A real pipedream.
http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/...2/Mistel-4.htm
Karl