Rear Guns on RNAS DH-4 Bomber Ares B1

[gully_raker]

I have almost finished Squadron Leader Bartlett's WW1 diary published by his son as "In the Teeth of the Wind" & a great read it is.

Bartlett's DH-4 B1 with the Red rear fuselage & tricolour elevators is one of the Aircraft made by Area in the DH-4 reprints however its base & card show a B firing rear gun whilst Bartlett's description clearly states all their later DH-4's including B1 had twin Lewis guns for the "gunlayer" which is what the Observer was called in RNAS Bombers.

There is a picture of one of his best friends manning such an installation.

Also attached is a pic of B1 & the Squadron lining up for a bombing mission.

I wonder if we can get Ares to modify the Gun letter as one of the original DH-4 models was a B/A equipped one.?

[flash]

They got it back to front then ? I note from the pic that it had a red nose to match the tail & a four bladed prop !
Great info Baz

[Zoe Brain]

Aircraft flying at high altitude used single guns, as the observer couldn't swing a 2 gun mount around at subzero temperatures and with little oxygen. Below 12000 ft, 2 guns was normal. At 15000 or above, with movement restricted by multiple layers of heavy clothing - temperature decreases about 10C per 3000ft - so 20C on the ground is -30C - and with only half the oxygen available on the ground, doing anything strenuous is extraordinarily difficult.

[gully_raker]

They got it back to front then ? I note from the pic that it had a red nose to match the tail & a four bladed prop !
Great info Baz

Yes Dave it looks like the various Flights had different coloured noses.

[john snelling]

Why does Ares have to do it?

If in your scenario the DH-4 has twin guns in the rear then so be it.

Just announce it in the beginning of your game so the all players know.

[gully_raker]

Why does Ares have to do it?

If in your scenario the DH-4 has twin guns in the rear then so be it.

Just announce it in the beginning of your game so the all players know.

Yeah that's not a problem John but it would be nice for Ares to make it official via a FAQ post.
I was thinking from the point of the Solo Campaign I am in on the Forum & do not like to add something unofficial.
Games Club---No Problems.

[john snelling]

Yeah that's not a problem John but it would be nice for Ares to make it official via a FAQ post.
I was thinking from the point of the Solo Campaign I am in on the Forum & do not like to add something unofficial.
Games Club---No Problems.

Funny, the different (not wrongly) the way we look and see things. I never have any doubt or remorse changing any rule or stat
that does not reflect reality or my perceived reality.

Words cannot express my thoughts to the terrible and tragic situation in Britain and now in Egypt. May one day we defeat this evil.

[Ken at Sunrise]

Didn't Wings of War have an rear A firing DH4?

[flash]

Yeah that's not a problem John but it would be nice for Ares to make it official via a FAQ post.
I was thinking from the point of the Solo Campaign I am in on the Forum & do not like to add something unofficial.
Games Club---No Problems.

Don't think it 's a problem if you can evidence it as you have Baz, I've recently seem an image of a RE.8 with a rear twin mount !
There are twin mount markers with the bombers that will help.

Didn't Wings of War have an rear A firing DH4?

The US versions by Nexus & Ares are twin rear guns Ken

[brdavis]

Don't think it 's a problem if you can evidence it as you have Baz, I've recently seem an image of a RE.8 with a rear twin mount !
There are twin mount markers with the bombers that will help.



The US versions by Nexus & Ares are twin rear guns Ken

The Nexus Atkey model also.

[gully_raker]

Didn't Wings of War have an rear A firing DH4?

Yes Ken one of the Original release (USAS) had a rear A firing stat.

[Hedeby]

The Nexus American DH 4 is an A/A firing beastie - really nasty opponent

[gully_raker]

The Nexus American DH 4 is an A/A firing beastie - really nasty opponent

G'day Chris! Bartlett mentions in his book that one of his DH-4's also had the twin Vickers firing forward but not sure how often his Squadron did this. Apparently the upgraded Rolls Royce engines extra power allowed the extra weight.

[Doug]

Looks like I will have to modify my DH4"s and at least 1 x RE8.

[Naharaht]

Make yourself an equipment card giving the observer two guns.

[OldGuy59]

Would something like these be useful?





Edit: Corrected to RFC

[flash]

Nice cards Mike - if you can do ones for the Bregeut & Bristol you should have it covered !
You might also consider some for the Germans - this is a Hannover CL.III

[Naharaht]

Well done, Mike! Those are what are needed.

[OldGuy59]

[OldGuy59]

[Nicola Zee]

Tacking on a Lewis Mark I machine gun onto a swivel mount does not add a huge amount of extra weight. A Lewis Mark I machine gun weighs 17lbs and the extra reinforced ring and attachment adds only an extra say 3 pounds. Add say three 96 drums at 9lbs each (27lbs) and the total is a remarkably low 47lbs.

Yet at the start of the war very few two-seaters carried an extra gun and it was only later on in the war that it started to become fairly common?

I don't think there is a great mystery to this. At the start of the war, the planes were so underpowered every pound counted. When the RFC requested volunteers there was a specific request for men of light build - for obvious reasons! Later on in the war the engines became more powerful in terms of raw oomph and - just as importantly - they became better built and more reliable.

In the case of the British DH-4 (as the war progressed) many were built with the excellent Rolls-Royce 230hp and this was later upgraded to 375hp - plenty of spare oomph to carry extra weight.

The poor RE8 was not so fortunate and (with a few exceptions made by Belguim) had a barely sufficient 150hp engine. It was, also, infamous for having a relatively high stall speed. The combination of low power and high stall resulted in the instruction to observers that they must not stand up at low speed (such as the final circuit for landing)! Based on this I think that there should be a penalty for up-gunning the RE8.

[gully_raker]

Great work Mike!
Worthy of Rep which will be inbound.

[flash]

...The poor RE8 was not so fortunate and (with a few exceptions made by Belguim) had a barely sufficient 150hp engine. It was, also, infamous for having a relatively high stall speed. The combination of low power and high stall resulted in the instruction to observers that they must not stand up at low speed (such as the final circuit for landing)! Based on this I think that there should be a penalty for up-gunning the RE8.

And yet it could carry 224lb of bombs as well as it's standard gun load out so maybe it's more capable than you think.

[Nicola Zee]

And yet it could carry 224lb of bombs as well as it's standard gun load out so maybe it's more capable than you think.

Capable maybe - but then again a BE2 could be described as capable. It could serve its purpose.
On the other hand - highly powered? No!
The general consensus is that the RE8 was slow and lumbering.
Maybe the general consensus is wrong.

[Added Link]
http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...ory-be2-series


[Added]
'Although produced by the Royal Aircraft Factory, the majority of BE2's were made by private contractors which led to the RAF being able to concentrate on the development of other aircraft. The BE2 was capable of reaching 10,560 feet and could carry a load of 450 pounds.'

So the BE2 was very capable!

[flash]

I never said it was highly powered but trying to infer that as it was capable of carrying up to 224lb of bombs and its guns, then as a recon machine, that wouldn't be bombed up, it would be more than capable of carrying the extra 47lb of a second gun and ammo you ascribed to it.
It certainly had it's issues and was slow without doubt - The Aussies seemed to have some success with it. http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...uction/history

[Nicola Zee]

I never said it was highly powered but trying to infer that as it was capable of carrying up to 224lb of bombs and its guns, then as a recon machine, that wouldn't be bombed up, it would be more than capable of carrying the extra 47lb of a second gun and ammo you ascribed to it.
It certainly had it's issues and was slow without doubt - The Aussies seemed to have some success with it. http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...uction/history

When judging these things I tend to use power-to-weight ratios as a rough guide.
Let us take the max weight quoted on the site - 2,862lbs - as a very rough guide.
Knock off 224lbs for not carrying the bombs - and for good measure let's not even add in the extra weight of the extra gun and ammo.
This gives 2,638lbs. Divide by the hp of the 150 engine and this gives a power-to-weight ratio of an unimpressive 17.58.
Now we can quibble about the actual load weight and so on - but I hope you agree the power-to-weight ratio of the RE8 was unimpressive.

Do the same for a DH4 with 375 hp and I hope you will agree the power to weight ratio of a DH4 is very impressive and puts the RE8 to shame.
Loaded weight of say around 3,472 lb - it's a heavier plane than the RE8.
Engine 375hp
Power-to-weight 9.26
Even with the much smaller 230 engine it's still much better than the RE8.

Now we can quibble about the exact figures but I hope you agree the power-to-weight ratio of the DH4 was significantly better than the RE8!

[flash]

..Now we can quibble about the exact figures but I hope you agree the power-to-weight ratio of the DH4 was significantly better than the RE8!

What the.. huh.. did I ever say it wasn't, did I even mention a DH4 ?? Think I'll leave you to it Nicola.

[Nicola Zee]

What the.. huh.. did I ever say it wasn't, did I even mention a DH4 ?? Think I'll leave you to it Nicola.

The overall point I was making - and I still think it is a reasonable one - was that (even without the bombs), the power-to-weight ratio of the RE8 is a lot closer to the BE2c than it is to the DH4.

I agree the Australians did extremely well flying the RE8's but the power-to-weight ratio (and the general consensus) indicates this may be more to do with their exceptional abilities than the performance of the RE8!