Limited Ammo rules - a good corrective for "OP" cannons?

[surfimp]

We're gearing up for a big Battle of Britain engagement at my folks' place for the Easter holiday, and I just realized I've left my Limited Ammo cards at home and don't remember them!

Would some kind soul mind PMing the text of the Limited Ammo rule to me? I need to balance up the points a bit - the Germans are up about 100 as things stand on the table.

Thanks in advance!

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EDIT: Repurposing this thread for a broader discussion of Limited Ammo rules for other cannon-armed aircraft besides the Bf.109

"OP"= overpowered

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Hi Steve check out this post - http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...l=1#post436824

The card text is clearly captured on the photo.

[surfimp]

Thanks Carl! Wingmen are the best

[surfimp]

So we played with the Limited Ammo rules for the Bf.109E and they definitely made the game more interesting. With only 4 "shots" of cannonfire available, and the strong probability of missing, it gives the Bf.109 player some interesting choices around when and whether to use the cannon, or not.

We also tried using the Limited Ammo rules with the Bf.110 (which, historically, had even less cannon ammo than the Bf.109E - 180rds divided across three 60rd magazines, apparently). That was an interesting case to suss out, because the Bf.110 was more heavily armed than the Bf.109E, so when not firing the cannon (either by choice, or because you're out of cannon ammo), you have to then decide what the appropriate machine gun -only alternative is.

Has anyone given this thought, for other planes that were armed with both machine guns and cannons, and for which the Limited Ammo rule might be applied? I'm thinking of the Beaufighter, the Ki.61 that fires "D" at close range, and similar.

Those planes - and more specifically, the cannon damage they deliver - have been widely considered as a bit OP (overpowered) for years here, and based on my experience, I'm wondering if the Limited Ammo rule isn't a good solution to same.

Thoughts?

[Flying Helmut]

The average damage dealt by a 'B' chit are almost exactly the same as that dealt by a 'C' chit - Angiolillo himself came up with the stats.

Cannon are NOT "overpowered" - the large percentage of '0' chits level things out.

Anyway, if you're going to limit ammo on one type of lane, why not on all of them?

The Bf109 carried 44 seconds of MG ammo, but the Spitfire and Hurricane carried only 14 seconds worth - why are they not similarly penalised?

[surfimp]

The average damage dealt by a 'B' chit are almost exactly the same as that dealt by a 'C' chit - Angiolillo himself came up with the stats.

Cannon are NOT "overpowered" - the large percentage of '0' chits level things out.

Indeed! I had a sick day recently and sat down for some quality time with my WGF and WGS damage decks & chits and came up with this little analysis doc
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Anyway, if you're going to limit ammo on one type of lane, why not on all of them?

The Bf109 carried 44 seconds of MG ammo, but the Spitfire and Hurricane carried only 14 seconds worth - why are they not similarly penalised?

Good question - and in fact, the subject I am interested in discussing in this thread!

I think limited ammo adds an interesting wrinkle to the game - and I'm far from the first to have this impression as there are numerous threads here going back years.

However, as far as I know, the Limited Ammo card included with the Bf.109E Squadron Packs is one of (if not the) first times this idea has been made 'official' in any way.

So, towards that end, I'm interested in two questions:

1) How much real life firing should each ammo token account for?
In the case of the Bf.109E's 20mm cannon, my understanding was that there were approximately 6-8 seconds worth of ammunition (200rds). The recommendation vis-a-vis the Limited Ammo card is to represent this via 4 ammo tokens. By that reasoning, 2 seconds = 1 ammo token, give or take?

2) When an aircraft is *not* firing its cannons, either because it is out of ammo or because the pilot chooses not to, what is the appropriate "guns only" substitute?
In the case of the Bf.109E and its two 7.92mm MGs, the recommendation is A short / A long. Conversely, a Hurricane or Spitfire firing 8x .303 caliber guns accounts for BB short / B long. What would be appropriate for something like the Bf.110, Ki.61, FW-190 and Bristol Beaufighter, based on their historical armament?

[RFT]

well, we know, assuming that close range is the baseline firepower, that's then reduced for long range what a token represents

A token - 1 or 2 small (7.xmm) guns. Single .50
B token - 4 small mgs, 2 .50 cals.

So, it should just be a question of subtracting the Cs or Ds from any firepower value, and if nothing remains, then give an A as minimum firepower.


going long-short...

Bf110 is AC/BCC, so it would be A/B - that fits, as the B is representing the 4 small MGs, then dropping to an A at long range.

Ki-61 Kaid is AD/BDD, so again A/B Our B token is representing 2 50s, instead of 4 small ones, but still consistent.

FW190D is AC/BCC and again it's A/B with the B being the two 13mm MGs which are equiv to a .50

Beauf is AC/ABCCCC so, A/AB Representing the 6 303s - which again shakes out as sensible as it's as close as we can get to 3/4s of a spit/hurri's output, if we assume an A is half a B.

So, WGS's damage system already has this baked in, so to speak- the tokens have already seperated the cannon from the MGs so leaving just the MGs looks simple.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Beauf is ACC/ABCCCC so, A/AB Representing the 6 303s - which again shakes out as sensible as it's as close as we can get to 3/4s of a spit/hurri's output, if we assume an A is half a B.

Don't forget on the early Beaufighters the four nose mounted 20mm cannon were fed from 60 round drum magazines which the navigator could change in flight, accessing the breaches from the cabin. Note also long range firepower is ACC.

[Lord_Ninja]

I played around with the idea a few years ago but in a bit more of a literal manner of trying to figure out the exact number of turns each gun of the Series 5 planes but then moved and forgot to continue to get the numbers for the rest. http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-I-hate-myself

[RFT]

thanks for that, typo'd the long one.

I'm not an expert on Beaufighters, so I didn't know the cannons were reloadable in flight. I suppose in that case, the Bristol just wouldn't be subject to it - unless you wanted to complicate things further with an "in-flight reload" rule (no left or right moves for a couple of turns so the nav can reload the guns)

[surfimp]

well, we know, assuming that close range is the baseline firepower, that's then reduced for long range what a token represents

A token - 1 or 2 small (7.xmm) guns. Single .50
B token - 4 small mgs, 2 .50 cals.

So, it should just be a question of subtracting the Cs or Ds from any firepower value, and if nothing remains, then give an A as minimum firepower.

going long-short...

Bf110 is AC/BCC, so it would be A/B - that fits, as the B is representing the 4 small MGs, then dropping to an A at long range.

Ki-61 Kaid is AD/BDD, so again A/B Our B token is representing 2 50s, instead of 4 small ones, but still consistent.

FW190D is AC/BCC and again it's A/B with the B being the two 13mm MGs which are equiv to a .50

Beauf is ACC/ABCCCC so, A/AB Representing the 6 303s - which again shakes out as sensible as it's as close as we can get to 3/4s of a spit/hurri's output, if we assume an A is half a B.

Looks good to me! I was operating along similar lines in my own thinking.

I'm not an expert on Beaufighters, so I didn't know the cannons were reloadable in flight. I suppose in that case, the Bristol just wouldn't be subject to it

According to Wikipedia, they had 240 rounds per gun, so I'd think they'd be just as subject to ammo restrictions as any other cannon-armed plane, all of which seemed to carry around 180-240 rounds per gun (sometimes on belts, as in the case of the Bf.109E, and sometimes in drums, as in the case of the Beaufighter and Bf.110)

On the theory that 1 token = approximately 2 seconds of fire / ~40-50 rounds - which is based on the verbiage of the Limited Ammo card vis-a-vis the Bf.109E3's armament - I guess that'd give the Beaufighter 5 tokens? Still more than plenty to delete an enemy or three.