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View Poll Results: Which Observer Crew Hit Rules do you use?

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • One crew hit incapacitates the Observer

    18 45.00%
  • Two crew hits incapacitates the Observer always, the same as the Pilot

    8 20.00%
  • Playing missions then use the observer I use 2 crew hits for game play, otherwise it is one hit.

    1 2.50%
  • The Extended Crew damage from RAP, allows more that one crew to be hit

    10 25.00%
  • The Extended Crew damage from RAP except in Observer Missions

    0 0%
  • Other, please explain

    3 7.50%
Results 1 to 41 of 41

Thread: Do you use one crew hit incapacitates the Observer

  1. #1

    Default Do you use one crew hit incapacitates the Observer

    According to the rules it takes two Crew Hits to completely incapacitate the pilot, but only one for the observer. How do you play?

  2. #2

  3. #3

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    Two for the pilot, so two for the observer.

    Wounded Observer - takes one extra turn to unjam or reload, can NEVER have a +1 Aim bonus, needs two successful photographic attempts to secure a good photo, prevents pilot from performing Immelmann.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  4. #4

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    According to the rules I shuffle and draw one of the crew member tokens.

    I = pilot hit II = observer/rear gunner hit

    The observer/rear gunner is out of action after the first hit.

    (The good thing is, that twoseater pilots always have a 50 % not to be hit. )

    I think a observer/rear gunner is always in a more exposed position, so one hit is ok for me.


    I normally don't use the optional extended crew hits for planes with only two crew members. Don't ask me why.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  5. #5

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    The single wound on the observer is (in my view) a critical point of balance for the two seaters.

    Yes, it absolutely sucks when a recon mission has to be scrubbed because the observer was killed... I'm sure it sucked in real life, too, when your buddy died behind you.

    But this allows the rear gun to be silenced and helps give some genuine chance of vulnerability to two seaters.

    No reason why this can't be addressed, however, by purchasing Strong Constitution for your observer, so the solution sought here (two wounds for the Observer) is available via an additional points cost. Which is balanced, in my view.

    One thing I differ from the rules is regarding bombing. Rules as written, an incapacitated observer precludes bombing. That's just silly for most if not all of the planes modeled in WoG... the pilot was the one who released the bombs, not the observer. So I ignore that and just consider the observer to be there for defensive gunning, as in fact that's what the observer was there for on bombing missions.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    The single wound on the observer is (in my view) a critical point of balance for the two seaters.

    Yes, it absolutely sucks when a recon mission has to be scrubbed because the observer was killed... I'm sure it sucked in real life, too, when your buddy died behind you.

    But this allows the rear gun to be silenced and helps give some genuine chance of vulnerability to two seaters.

    No reason why this can't be addressed, however, by purchasing Strong Constitution for your observer, so the solution sought here (two wounds for the Observer) is available via an additional points cost. Which is balanced, in my view.

    One thing I differ from the rules is regarding bombing. Rules as written, an incapacitated observer precludes bombing. That's just silly for most if not all of the planes modeled in WoG... the pilot was the one who released the bombs, not the observer. So I ignore that and just consider the observer to be there for defensive gunning, as in fact that's what the observer was there for on bombing missions.


    I voted 'Other' as I'd go with Steve's option above, also using the multiple crew chits from the RAP.

    So, if you draw a single wound against the observer that crewman is incapacitated. The two wound rule for pilots allows the game to continue, if you draw that special damage card, not immediately end the game. In the extremely unlucky circumstance of drawing both crew wound cards in the same shot, well, that is just another version of a Boom Card.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-05-2017 at 09:15.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    One thing I differ from the rules is regarding bombing. Rules as written, an incapacitated observer precludes bombing. That's just silly for most if not all of the planes modeled in WoG... the pilot was the one who released the bombs, not the observer. So I ignore that and just consider the observer to be there for defensive gunning, as in fact that's what the observer was there for on bombing missions.
    Interesting; I hadn't read anything like this. Where would this information be?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  8. #8

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    One of my pet peeves about the game is about gunners, so I play only one hit.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    One of my pet peeves about the game is about gunners, so I play only one hit.
    How so?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Interesting; I hadn't read anything like this. Where would this information be?
    I believe it's in the special scenario rules under bombing, or else in the two-seater rules. Don't have my book in front of me, so I can't recall right now, but I do remember reading it and sort of shaking my head. I get it - from a gameplay perspective - but some things are just a bit too gamey in an historical game, and for me, this is one of them.

  11. #11

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    I apply a slightly twisted expanded crew damage rule to two-seaters. Anyway for 'added realism' this rule provides a chance that an attack may hit more than one of the crew in a bomber...so someone thought why not in a two seater. Made sense to me, so I use it, and have done in OTT, for years. For quickness, rather than faff about with tokens (which I hate), I roll a D6: 2,3 hits the pilot, 4,5 hits the gunner, 1,6 hits them both. I have refined it at times depending on the angle of attack where 1 hits both and split the 3 to 2 against the crewman nearest the gun firing at them.
    I sometimes couple it with this optional rule from the OTT campaign to prolong the life of an observer:
    Wounded Observer: option for obs/recon/bomb missions:
    a. You knock him down for the remainder of the turn he is hit in
    b. He stays down the whole next turn
    c. He returns to action at the beginning of the next turn with these penalties applied.
    ie 4 move gun jam, can only fire at short range & not after steep moves.
    d. A second hit and observer is killed.

    "He is wise who watches"

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    How so?
    Historically, pilots behind gun(s) were better than a gunner. That is why 2 seat observation aircraft were shot down more often than they shot down a fighter. In this game the gunner is a lot better historically then they were. It was not a fair match.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Historically, pilots behind gun(s) were better than a gunner. That is why 2 seat observation aircraft were shot down more often than they shot down a fighter. In this game the gunner is a lot better historically then they were. It was not a fair match.
    Well, maybe. There are a couple of reason that more observation than fighter were shot down.
    1. Confirmation bias. There are a whole lot of biographies, histories, etc about the fighter pilots, particularly the aces. It is those that people in general tend to focus on, so of course, there is the great impression that the two-seaters were more vulnerable, automatically. But two-seaters were also more numerous overall than the fighters...after all, the original purpose of aircraft in general was simple reconnaissance, and that trend continued throughout the war. More aircraft means more targets, means more two-seaters shot down.
    2. In the majority of air combats, there was little classic dogfighting. (Two famous exceptions being Richthofen's victory over Hawker, and Voss' fight with a flight from No. 56 Squadron). In this, the two seaters were usually hampered by the fact that they had another job to do: artillery spotting, trying to visually or photographically reconnoiter a specific part of the battlefield. The aircrew's attention, in many, many combat situations was on their primary mission, as it should have been. On the other hand, the fighter pilot's attention was on his primary mission, as it should have been: finding the opponent, and stopping his mission. Richthofen is alleged to have said: "Rove your assigned airspace, spot your enemy, shoot him down. Anything else is nonsense."

    One of the weaknesses of Wings of Glory is that there is no mechanism for accounting for the advantages of first spotting. In this lies the rub...the aircraft with initial sighting can position itself to give the advantage over another. So, yeah, in the game, the two-seaters actually have a great advantage over their historical counterparts. In view of that, and for some other more esoteric reasons, IMHO, incapacitating the observer with a single wound, and the pilot with two, restores some of the balance.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Historically, pilots behind gun(s) were better than a gunner. That is why 2 seat observation aircraft were shot down more often than they shot down a fighter. In this game the gunner is a lot better historically then they were. It was not a fair match.


    i was reading a book about the diary of an unknown aviator (american in british service) where he related his feelings about attacking 2 seaters. he was of the opinion that it was a nasty job and that they were more than a match for scouts. i posted the passage in an earlier post but i have no idea how to find it. reading that led me to believe wog got it right when it comes to the difficulty value of 2 seaters.

  15. #15

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    i always give other aircrew 2 hits like pilots. i see no logical reason for them to be less hale and hearty than their pilot brethren. especially for german aircrew since the observers were often the higher ranking, more experienced crewmen and commanded the aircraft.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    The single wound on the observer is (in my view) a critical point of balance for the two seaters.

    Yes, it absolutely sucks when a recon mission has to be scrubbed because the observer was killed... I'm sure it sucked in real life, too, when your buddy died behind you.

    But this allows the rear gun to be silenced and helps give some genuine chance of vulnerability to two seaters.

    No reason why this can't be addressed, however, by purchasing Strong Constitution for your observer, so the solution sought here (two wounds for the Observer) is available via an additional points cost. Which is balanced, in my view.

    One thing I differ from the rules is regarding bombing. Rules as written, an incapacitated observer precludes bombing. That's just silly for most if not all of the planes modeled in WoG... the pilot was the one who released the bombs, not the observer. So I ignore that and just consider the observer to be there for defensive gunning, as in fact that's what the observer was there for on bombing missions.
    Likewise except for the 1914-1915 planes where it was normally the observer who chucked the bombs out (except for the BE2c)

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    i was reading a book about the diary of an unknown aviator (american in british service) where he related his feelings about attacking 2 seaters. he was of the opinion that it was a nasty job and that they were more than a match for scouts. i posted the passage in an earlier post but i have no idea how to find it. reading that led me to believe wog got it right when it comes to the difficulty value of 2 seaters.
    More than a match for scouts. If two seaters were superior or even closely matched to scouts, why did all sides build scouts, they would just built two seaters. I totally disagree with your premise. I do not disagree with the unknown aviator because that is what he experienced.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenlizard View Post
    Well, maybe. There are a couple of reason that more observation than fighter were shot down.
    1. Confirmation bias. There are a whole lot of biographies, histories, etc about the fighter pilots, particularly the aces. It is those that people in general tend to focus on, so of course, there is the great impression that the two-seaters were more vulnerable, automatically. But two-seaters were also more numerous overall than the fighters...after all, the original purpose of aircraft in general was simple reconnaissance, and that trend continued throughout the war. More aircraft means more targets, means more two-seaters shot down.
    2. In the majority of air combats, there was little classic dogfighting. (Two famous exceptions being Richthofen's victory over Hawker, and Voss' fight with a flight from No. 56 Squadron). In this, the two seaters were usually hampered by the fact that they had another job to do: artillery spotting, trying to visually or photographically reconnoiter a specific part of the battlefield. The aircrew's attention, in many, many combat situations was on their primary mission, as it should have been. On the other hand, the fighter pilot's attention was on his primary mission, as it should have been: finding the opponent, and stopping his mission. Richthofen is alleged to have said: "Rove your assigned airspace, spot your enemy, shoot him down. Anything else is nonsense."

    One of the weaknesses of Wings of Glory is that there is no mechanism for accounting for the advantages of first spotting. In this lies the rub...the aircraft with initial sighting can position itself to give the advantage over another. So, yeah, in the game, the two-seaters actually have a great advantage over their historical counterparts. In view of that, and for some other more esoteric reasons, IMHO, incapacitating the observer with a single wound, and the pilot with two, restores some of the balance.
    Mainly because the two seater usually were hampered by flying characteristics like max speed, turn radius ect.

    "More aircraft means more targets, means more two-seaters shot down." It also means more scouts would have been shot down if the fighting capabilities were nearly equal.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    More than a match for scouts. If two seaters were superior or even closely matched to scouts, why did all sides build scouts, they would just built two seaters. I totally disagree with your premise. I do not disagree with the unknown aviator because that is what he experienced.


    hey, i was just relating the gist of what he wrote. if you want to disagree feel free to dig him up and do so. as for my opinion, ill go with what i read from a guy that was actually there. to each their own.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    hey, i was just relating the gist of what he wrote. if you want to disagree feel free to dig him up and do so. as for my opinion, ill go with what i read from a guy that was actually there. to each their own.
    You are making a decision about what one unknown guy wrote.

    Lets look at some facts: Jasta 2 (or B) in 1916 had 86 victories and 10 losses (killed, wounded and POWs)

    57 victories were over 2 seaters for a loss of 2, that makes a ratio of 23.5 to 1
    Actually it was only 1 because Ltn.d.R. Hans Joachim von Arnim is KIA over Le Transloy was assigned to FA 207(A) but was carried on Jasta 2 roster.

    29 victories were over scouts for a loss of 4, that makes a ratio of 7.25 to 1

    also 2 loses from accidents and 1 unk.

    LOL, go to dig up what some unknown dead pilot said. That was a very good pun.
    Last edited by john snelling; 04-06-2017 at 18:16.

  21. #21

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    Quite a number of gunners from two seaters became aces, did they not?

    I think they were probably quite a bit easier to catch off-guard than a typical scout pilot, both because of their work as well as the fact that there were only two guys in one plane, as opposed to a whole flight.

    But, when and if they did spot an attacker, I think many of the two seaters were quite capable of defending themselves, especially in 1v1 situations.

    Certainly has been the case in my experience with flight sims, versus human opponents. Attacking from below is definitely the best solution, but even then, an aggressive pilot and a sharpshooting observer will make your life hell...

    Unless you bounce them, of course

    I think WoG does a pretty good job of capturing the above.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    Quite a number of gunners from two seaters became aces, did they not?

    I think they were probably quite a bit easier to catch off-guard than a typical scout pilot, both because of their work as well as the fact that there were only two guys in one plane, as opposed to a whole flight.

    But, when and if they did spot an attacker, I think many of the two seaters were quite capable of defending themselves, especially in 1v1 situations.

    Certainly has been the case in my experience with flight sims, versus human opponents. Attacking from below is definitely the best solution, but even then, an aggressive pilot and a sharpshooting observer will make your life hell...

    Unless you bounce them, of course

    I think WoG does a pretty good job of capturing the above.
    Not at all when compared to scouts. There were between 182 French aces. 7 were recon and Bomber pilot aces and 7 gunners.

    There were only 3 ace gunners for the A-Hs.

    The exception of this is the British Bristol F2b fighter which I cannot make any sense out of.

    Jon Guttman wrote "relatively few German aircrews attained acedom in two-seaters largely because pilots that showed the requisite aggressiveness were swiftly recommended for fighter training". from Reconnaissance and Bomber Aces of WW1, Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #123.
    Last edited by john snelling; 04-07-2017 at 08:13.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    The exception of this is the British Bristol F2b fighter which I cannot make any sense out of.
    Once its aerobatic capabilities were realised the Bristol F2b was flown like a fighter with an extra gunner. So unlike standard recon or bombing two seaters they went looking for trouble.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Once its aerobatic capabilities were realised the Bristol F2b was flown like a fighter with an extra gunner. So unlike standard recon or bombing two seaters they went looking for trouble.
    Carl, you are correct but, I was not clear at all, the Bristol fighter combined with the British victory system.

    I consider the Bristol along with the Camel and SE5a to be game changers.

  25. #25

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    Treating the observer different always caused a bit of a fuss with my guys. They like consistency over play balance. I agree. If you want a perfect balance - play checkers but even there someone has to go first. But that's just us.

  26. #26

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    BTW great poll question.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyking20 View Post
    BTW great poll question.
    Thanks

  28. #28

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    I chose "other" as I feel there's a chance for a kill as well as a chance for a glancing, or disorienting, wound. I use a simple table and a D6 to determine the who (for two-seaters) and the how bad of a hit. One pilot marker is Glancing, two pilot markers is serious, anything beyond is a kill.

    Wounded Pilot/Crew Determination

    1-2: Pilot
    3-4: Crew
    5-6: Both

    1st Wound

    1: Killed
    2: 2 Markers (Serious)
    3-6: 1 Marker (Glancing)

    2nd Wound

    1-3: Killed
    4-6: 2 Markers (Serious)

    Effect

    Glancing: Per Rules (exception: Crew may fire Machine Gun)
    -1 DRM for all actions requiring a die roll

    Serious: Per Rules plus Pilot cannot perform Steep Maneuvers (except Stall and Dive)
    -2 DRM for all actions requiring a die roll

    For multiple-engine aircraft, I either adjust the pilot/crew determining die roll accordingly or just use the chits.
    Last edited by BellMW54; 04-17-2017 at 19:44. Reason: My table format didn't translate properly.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Historically, pilots behind gun(s) were better than a gunner. That is why 2 seat observation aircraft were shot down more often than they shot down a fighter. In this game the gunner is a lot better historically then they were. It was not a fair match.
    I'm completely in agreement with you on this, John. WGF is very poor at depicting the relative difficulty that an observer had hitting an attacking aircraft and seems to materially overstate the efficacy of non-pilot operated guns. As a quick and dirty sample I looked through the 19 Sqn RFC war diary and of the 20 pilots killed, wounded or taken PoW in the course of 1918 one or less (there is some ambiguity in the instance of Major Carter's shooting down) were the result of fire from German two seater aircraft. This is not surprising as it is much harder to hit a moving target from an aircraft when you are not also flying the plane and able to line up the aircraft with your target. The observer/gunner had to anticipate not only the movement of the target but also that of his own plane. Anyone who has fired an unstabilised weapon from a moving vehicle can attest to just how difficult this is to do. Another way of illustrating this is to compare claims made by USAAF gunners in B-17s and B-24s in WWII. On the Schweinfurt-Regensburg raid on 17 Aug 1943 B-17 gunners claimed 288 kills; German records show only 40 aircraft shot down (and it's worth noting that the escorting P-47s and Spitfires put in claims for 21 aircraft). Similar levels of over claiming by B-17 and B-24 crews were evident on the missions over Berlin flown by the 1st and 2nd Divisions of the 8th Air Force over Berlin in March 1944.

    Personally, I'd suggest a house rule for WGF observer manned guns to only use an adjusted B deck which removes half of all the active damage cards (rounded down), giving a 59% chance of a 0 result. Fire from observers would be much less effective and replicate much better the intimidating/distracting effect they had rather than overstating their destructiveness.

    Tom

  30. #30

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    I answered "Other" above, and using the Strong Constitution Ace Skill for those important missions. However, other things have come to mind.

    First: "Multiple Crew" chits for bombers. It is possible to take out the entire crew, is it not, if you draw the right (wrong) chit? Perhaps on the second wound, I guess, as I just looked at the chits. For 1-3 crew, you hit one or two members. For 4+ crew, you can hit up to three at a time.

    So, with bad luck, you could hit the pilot for a wound on the first hit, and some other crew, and follow it up with a second hit that takes everyone out. The pilot still takes two hits in these rules, as well.

    Second: Someone just asked me to do up a special "Crew Hit" card. I did one up, and it is nasty. It also requires the pilot to be the age of majority to use. If the requester permits, I'll post it. Those attending Prague Con 2017 will get the first look, otherwise.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    I believe it's in the special scenario rules under bombing, or else in the two-seater rules. Don't have my book in front of me, so I can't recall right now, but I do remember reading it and sort of shaking my head. I get it - from a gameplay perspective - but some things are just a bit too gamey in an historical game, and for me, this is one of them.
    No, I meant that the pilot triggered the bomb release. I was to understand that the observer did so.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  32. #32

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    We should have some things in mind.
    First, if observer gets two wounds it would disbalance damage distribution, as two-seater would get more chances for a pilot to avoid bein wounded, and "Wounded Crew" damage is limited. Second, in WoG rear gun is designed to be incapacitated after first wound. If that is to be changed, two-seaters will get stronger than they shuold be in game terms. Expand this to the bombers, and any crew will be very hard to incapacitate.

    On the other hand, it sounds unfair to let pilot have two wounds and kill other crew with just one.

    I was thinking about that and came up with this ideas:
    1. Observer has two wounds. After first wound he can't shoot or take pictures next three cards.
    2. After wounded observer shoots or takes photo, he must wait three cards to take action again. This goes for mechanics as well. Unjamming the guns lasts on more card and can't be interrupted with other action.
    3. Wounded observer can't shoot after steep maneuvers (reversal card included). He, however, may take pictures after such maneuvers.
    4. No +1 damage whatsoever for wounded observer (even if he is an Ace).
    5. Card that brought second wound to the observer is fully public. It's numerical damage is written down, and the card is shuffled back into approriate deck. Of course, observer is finaly incapacitated.

  33. #33

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    In 48 Squadron there were a fair few Aces behind the pilot as well as in front of the rear gunner.

    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Historically, pilots behind gun(s) were better than a gunner. That is why 2 seat observation aircraft were shot down more often than they shot down a fighter. In this game the gunner is a lot better historically then they were. It was not a fair match.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  34. #34

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    It also depends on what kind of game I am playing. My solo games tend to be campaign orientated so aircraft can bug out when on fire, extensive damage or for other reasons (it might be raining....snoopy!) I use the extended rules from the RAP pack. (Have to use my nice counters some time).

    For games at shows it is 2 for the pilot 1 for the rear.

    For friendlies decide and agree before hand.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  35. #35

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    Plus if they are new players I'm a lot for forgiving of damage.

  36. #36

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    This photograph shows a Mk. I Drift Sight mounted on the side of an Airco DH.4. The lever just in front of the bomb aimer's fingertips sets the altitude, the wheels near his knuckles set the wind and airspeed. Notice that it is on the side of the observer's cockpit (The Scarff ring is visible). The pilot would be too busy flying the plane to adjust all the settings.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	220px-Drift_Sight_Mk._I_on_DH4.jpeg 
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  37. #37

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    Good information David. After reading all the posts I am totaly unsure as to give the gunner two lives or one?

  38. #38

    Setarius's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
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    I use the one and down rule for observers. That doesn't mean that he is dead, it just means he can't do his job.
    To figure out if he is dead I'll roll on the Crash and Wound table in the OTT Campaign rules.

  39. #39

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    I tend to use my own version of crew injuries. Works for me, but then I have been playing mostly solo games for the last four years.

    Crew Member Injuries: If drawing the ‘Crew Member Hit’ Special Damage card, with multiple crew positioned aircraft, use Flight of the Giants rules to determine which crew members are injured. Each crew member can sustain up to two draws of ‘Crew Member Hit’ before being killed. A wounded pilot or observer/gunner cannot fire weapons in the same phase the aircraft executes any steep maneuver or Immelmann turn. A wounded pilot or observer/gunner takes an additional phase longer un-jamming weapons and can not fire for an additional straight maneuver phase.

    Roll 2d6; plus four, for the total number of weeks out of service.

  40. #40

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    MvR had a healthy respect for observer guns. His stated policy when attacking a 2-seater was to shoot the observer *first*, then worry about the rest.

    I prefer the standard one-hit rule. Anythings else is probably best handled with a more comprehensive critical hit system. If you're running a campaign, you may need to know if he's wounded or dead after the battle, but it's not required on the spot, as it is with the pilot.

    (I'd flip this poll on it's head... why should *pilots* get the extra hit point anyway?)
    Last edited by mrinku; 04-14-2018 at 16:16.

  41. #41

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    I would say as the rules. However, i think i read a house rule somewhere where only the pilot or observer could shoot in the same maneuver (nothing to do with wounds). Wouldnt that reduce the perceived superiority of 2-seaters in the game?



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