Spitfire, Wings of War vs Wings of GLory

**Teaticket** · 04-03-2017 07:52

I was late to getting into WGS. I tried to fight it and stay only with WWI but grew weak and am now immersed in WW2 airplanes along with WWI. (not a complaint!) Until the recent BoB release I only had one older Spitfire from a Wings of War deluxe set. Upon opening the new Spitfire I noticed it has 2 more cards in the maneuver deck. The new Spitfires have one more (5 total) turn cards in each direction. I guess I'm lucky to only have to only make one pair of cards to update my Spitfire to current standards. Interesting that ARES has given the Spitfire another turning option improving its maneuverability.

**OldGuy59** · 04-03-2017 08:33

There was a discussion about this, buried in the Battle of Britain thread somewhere. The Spitfire was supposed to be more maneuverable than the Bf-109, and this was the fix. It comes with an optional equipment card to balance this, the sputtering engine.

As stated by the designer, you can consider the Nexus plane as the pre- constant speed propeller version. Not as satisfying as a fully maneuverable Spitfire, IMHO. I have four Spitfires.

**Teaticket** · 04-03-2017 08:48

If previously discussed I missed it. I don't think adding one turn card R&L is a big deal, until I get to fly a Spit and use it!

**Flying Helmut** · 04-03-2017 09:54

I have an undisclosed number of Nexus Spitfires.

I hope the task of providing them all with extra turn cards is not an onerous one.

**OldGuy59** · 04-03-2017 10:00

Originally Posted by Teaticket

If previously discussed I missed it. I don't think adding one turn card R&L is a big deal, until I get to fly a Spit and use it!

Originally mentioned in that thread at: WGS - Battle of Britain Update - Post 263

**OldGuy59** · 04-03-2017 10:03

Originally Posted by Flying Helmut

I have an undisclosed number of Nexus Spitfires.

I hope the task of providing them all with extra turn cards is not an onerous one.

I foresee sleeved cards and a common home-printed backing for all, to hide the new turn card. PITA!

**Tokhuah** · 04-03-2017 11:07

Moving forward I plan to handle differences in the Spitfires with the point system. The BoB planes have a different cost so comparing 2-3 of my original planes, the new Spits, and 109's will mean different skill amounts to level the point values.

The point system has created a perception shift for me. Of course the Zero seems inferior to the F-4 until you start bridging that point gap with abilities like Sniper. Zeros as printed are better than people give them credit for as long as the point system is used.

I am not trying to derail the discussion away from modifying cards, rather looking at alternatives to balancing planes. Even with more complex missions that include bombers I think the point system provides a valuable guideline.

Where is a step off a soap box emoji when you need it?

**Guntruck** · 04-03-2017 12:42

Originally Posted by Flying Helmut

I have an undisclosed number of Nexus Spitfires.

I hope the task of providing them all with extra turn cards is not an onerous one.

I've got a load of Nexus Spits as well, so not an impossibility, I would say

Anybody else noticed the incorrect wing type for the Mk I Spit?

**Stumptonian** · 04-03-2017 21:37

I have 7 originals, (2 of each plus the one from the Deluxe Set) 7 new ones and 6 Mk IX

Haven't had a chance to compare them at all yet.

I venture to sat that Tim has a few more than me ....

Wait for it .....

**Flying Helmut** · 04-04-2017 01:06

Originally Posted by Stumptonian

I have 7 originals, (2 of each plus the one from the Deluxe Set) 7 new ones and 6 Mk IX

Haven't had a chance to compare them at all yet.

I venture to sat that Tim has a few more than me ....

Wait for it .....

I believe you are correct, Sir......................................

**Marechallannes** · 04-04-2017 08:22

So I'm shure the "new" Mitsubishi Zeroes will get an upgrade for their movement decks, too.

**Teaticket** · 04-04-2017 09:02

Originally Posted by Marechallannes

So I'm shure the "new" Mitsubishi Zeroes will get an upgrade for their movement decks, too.

That would be nice. I've made the house rules additional cards for all my Zeros. If the new Zeros have different cards I'll have to get my printing press out of the closet.

**OldGuy59** · 04-04-2017 10:03

Originally Posted by Guntruck

I've got a load of Nexus Spits as well, so not an impossibility, I would say

Anybody else noticed the incorrect wing type for the Mk I Spit?

Don't have any minis, so only looking at online images. To what do you refer?

Potential Reference: Spitfire Site - Concise Guide to Spitfire Wing Types

Perhaps that the mini appears to have a Mk. II wing?

**OldGuy59** · 04-04-2017 10:53

Originally Posted by Tokhuah

Moving forward I plan to handle differences in the Spitfires with the point system. The BoB planes have a different cost so comparing 2-3 of my original planes, the new Spits, and 109's will mean different skill amounts to level the point values.

The point system has created a perception shift for me. Of course the Zero seems inferior to the F-4 until you start bridging that point gap with abilities like Sniper. Zeros as printed are better than people give them credit for as long as the point system is used.

I am not trying to derail the discussion away from modifying cards, rather looking at alternatives to balancing planes. Even with more complex missions that include bombers I think the point system provides a valuable guideline.

Where is a step off a soap box emoji when you need it?

Just looked this over, and Andrea has adjusted the Nexus planes for lower points compared to the Ares planes. Interestingly enough, I have two of the Nexus Mk. IIs, and two Nexus Mk. Is. I have that pre-order of the Starter Set coming, by slow boat from Montreal, which contains two Mk. Is. So, if I wanted, I could swap out the two new Ares Maneuver decks with my Nexus Mk. IIs, and I would be all good for versions and abilities (well, sort of).

Point System for WW2 Wings of Glory

**OldGuy59** · 04-04-2017 16:45

Originally Posted by Guntruck

I've got a load of Nexus Spits as well, so not an impossibility, I would say

Anybody else noticed the incorrect wing type for the Mk I Spit?

Originally Posted by OldGuy59

Don't have any minis, so only looking at online images. To what do you refer?

Potential Reference: Spitfire Site - Concise Guide to Spitfire Wing Types

Perhaps that the mini appears to have a Mk. II wing?

Steve,
Can you clarify your issue using the wings below?

Click image for larger version.

Name: wing_abc.png
Views: 181
Size: 69.4 KB
ID: 220420

There were upper-wing landing gear blisters in the early wings, due to the very thin wings on the Spitfire. Not until the appearance of later marks did they disappear:

From the above linked reference:

The undercarriage mountings were redesigned and the undercarriage doors were bowed in cross section allowing the legs to sit lower in the wells, eliminating the upper-wing blisters over the wheel wells and landing gear pivot points.

The revised, strengthened undercarriage legs were raked 2 inches (5.08 cm) further forward, making the Spitfire more stable on the ground and reducing the likelihood of the aircraft tipping onto its nose.

**RFT** · 04-05-2017 00:59

The bulges are too big, too far aft and too far outboard to be the wheels - they do look like the cannon blisters on the C-type wing shown.

Not, I should say, that it really bothers me - you do have to peer pretty hard to see it. you can make it out on this picture from the ares site. near wing, in the green area, straight up from the roundel.

Click image for larger version.

Name: 800x600-ww2_wings_of_glory-WGS003A_2.jpg
Views: 179
Size: 62.2 KB
ID: 220426

**Guntruck** · 04-05-2017 03:27

Originally Posted by OldGuy59

Steve,
Can you clarify your issue using the wings below?

There were upper-wing landing gear blisters in the early wings, due to the very thin wings on the Spitfire. Not until the appearance of later marks did they disappear:

From the above linked reference:

Mike, it has the Mk V cannon blister (without the cannon) as well as the landing gear blister.

**OldGuy59** · 04-05-2017 11:12

Originally Posted by Guntruck

Mike, it has the Mk V cannon blister (without the cannon) as well as the landing gear blister.

The image quality and angle are louzy, but is there a blister within the red circle on the image below?

Click image for larger version.

Name: 800x600-ww2_wings_of_glory-WGS401ABlister.png
Views: 172
Size: 248.8 KB
ID: 220493

If so, this is yet another black mark on Ares quality control issue, and that means the Spitfire is not exempt from errors. Such as the bombs on the other two fighters, which never carried them.

**Jager** · 04-05-2017 14:22

Originally Posted by OldGuy59

Such as the bombs on the other two fighters, which never carried them.

Hurricanes never carried bombs?
Karl

**OldGuy59** · 04-05-2017 14:41

Originally Posted by OldGuy59

Such as the bombs on the other two fighters, which never carried them.

Originally Posted by Jager

Hurricanes never carried bombs?
Karl

Karl,
Do you have any references indicating that British squadrons using Mk. I Hurricanes ever flew missions with bombs? Mk. IIs may have, after the Battle of Britain, when employed in the ground attack role. But, certainly never when intercepting attacks of fighters and bombers.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

**Guntruck** · 04-05-2017 15:18

Interestingly, I dugout a Nexus Spitfire I earlier, and that has the offending bulges as well.

**Guntruck** · 04-05-2017 15:19

Originally Posted by OldGuy59

Karl,
Do you have any references indicating that British squadrons using Mk. I Hurricanes ever flew missions with bombs? Mk. IIs may have, after the Battle of Britain, when employed in the ground attack role. But, certainly never when intercepting attacks of fighters and bombers.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What Mike said.

**OldGuy59** · 04-05-2017 20:07

Originally Posted by Guntruck

Interestingly, I dugout a Nexus Spitfire I earlier, and that has the offending bulges as well.

GACK! How did we all miss this!

Click image for larger version.

Name: WWS_Spitfire-Wing2.jpg
Views: 161
Size: 137.8 KB
ID: 220516

Overlaid on my Nexus Spitfire are outlines of the "C" wing on the left, with the Cannon blister in the center of the wing, and the "A" wing on the right, with the four MG service panels visible aft of the leading edge panel. Clearly visible under the overlay on the right is a Cannon blister! The inner two MG service panels are missing on both wings, as well, clearly indicating a "C" wing by panels, even without the cannon fairing.

Steve is right about the Nexus Spitfire Mk IIs having Cannon blisters, even though the leading edge is painted with the four MG gun ports.

We are all responsible for this screw-up!

**clipper1801** · 04-05-2017 20:18

Wings C S I ! Love it, most likely a CAD drawing/flip error . . . . My elves have done it too .. . .

**OldGuy59** · 04-05-2017 20:23

Originally Posted by clipper1801

Wings C S I ! Love it, most likely a CAD drawing/flip error . . . . My elves have done it too .. . .

Well, for those that want to add the cannon fairing to the leading edge, a Mk V Spitfire conversion would be a snap!

**Jager** · 04-19-2017 11:50

Originally Posted by OldGuy59

Karl,
Do you have any references indicating that British squadrons using Mk. I Hurricanes ever flew missions with bombs? Mk. IIs may have, after the Battle of Britain, when employed in the ground attack role. But, certainly never when intercepting attacks of fighters and bombers.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Specific to Aug-40 to Sep-40 from the UK, probably not.
Karl

**OldGuy59** · 06-03-2017 22:50

For those that may have missed it in other threads, I have done a few things that might help with the Nexus Spitfire Maneuver Deck thing.

WGS A MATES cards?

Sashdash's cards (Scroll down for a few more decks. More to follow, eventually)

Wings of War Deck Upgrade:

Updated WWS A Maneuver Deck (Complete with the 60 degree turns, and with a bunch of climbing and diving turns thrown in)

**Naharaht** · 07-11-2017 20:30

How about fixing the different climb rates problem by having equipment cards for the different types of propeller on the Spitfire Mk. I? Obviously, we can house rule it.

**OldGuy59** · 07-11-2017 20:44

Originally Posted by Naharaht

How about fixing the different climb rates problem by having equipment cards for the different types of propeller on the Spitfire Mk. I? Obviously, we can house rule it.

Wording?