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Thread: Higher gun versus Collision rule

  1. #1

    Default Higher gun versus Collision rule

    The higher gun rule says: "It can also fire at short range at overlapping airplanes in its firing arc at the same altitude level unless the Nieuport has climb counters and the target does not."

    This disagrees with the rule in the book that says two overlapping planes at the same altitude collide if the both have climb counters or both don't have climb counters.

    Does that mean the higher gun rule takes the place of the collision rule? Cause the card says you can shoot at short range as long as you don't have climb counters and the plane you're shooting has none. It seems to say that if both have counters or both don't have counters you can shoot at short range.

    Is there anyway the guy who invented the game can say if that is right?

  2. #2

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    I don't think it would replace the collision rule, that wouldn't make sense. I would say the intention was that you can shoot at short range if you're not colliding & you're lower than your target but it's not all that clear is it ? Maybe he meant you still collide but you get a shot in too ?!
    PM Andrea (angiolillo) with a link to the thread and ask him - he usually comes back with an answer.

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    Thank you sir. i will do that.

  4. #4

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    We had a game last year with the Comic Version of the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...light-Sept-6th

    Same question there we decided: Collission goes first - no shooting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    ...

    Our opponents were (no ace) fighters from the British home defense. Markus was in command of the two Bristfits, Hoffi had the Sopwith Snipe and Mario playtested the new Sopwith 1 ½ Strutter Comic version.

    ...

    The Staaken was on Level 4 with one climb counter, the Strutter right below on level 4.
    The Comic fighter dealt out a lot of damage, unreachable for my gunners. (You can see the Strutter under the Staaken’s base on the left).
    Soon I wasn’t able to turn left for a turn and it was clear that I wasn’t able to hit the target.

    ...

    The Bristfits catched a lot of bullets and Markus unfortunately didn’t use their full potential.
    I change on level 3 to distract the Strutter and the Snipe from the Gotha, leading to the question if the Strutter with it’s special rule was able to shoot when it collides before.
    We said – no.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  5. #5

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    I can see what you say. but it seem like ace cards and stuff like that are ways to break the rules - like acrobatic pilot - so it seems like the higher gun card is meant to do that. And its worded like that is what it is meant to do so the nieuport has an advantage when it goes after two-seaters. that is how me and my friends take the rule to mean when we read it thats what it says. i know lots of people will think it means something else. that is why i want the game designer to say something and i hope he will. cause i don't want to break the rules i want to play the card the way it is supposed to be.

  6. #6

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    another thing to think about, if the comic is in position to fire the guns with a collisions imminent, wont said collision damage the guns since theyre the upper most feature of the aircraft?

  7. #7

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    So a Comic version would be the only plane that can't collide?

    We don't have the general rule that cards override the rules from the rulebook.

    Most ace and plane cards are additions to the rules or explicit allow an special action that's not conform with the rules.


    The Comic version card allows you to fire while overlapping or prohibit firing after a steep maneuver, etc., not to ignore collisions.

    But your point ist right, too. Is this one allowed to fire or not after the collision? We answerde the question with: No.



    The streght of the Comic version reveals with altitude rules, I think.



    Beside this; I'll see Andrea next month. I can ask him.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    So a Comic version would be the only plane that can't collide?
    Not just the Comic Sven, the N.11, N.17, SE5a, or anything else with an over-wing Lewis - doesn't make sense does it.

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    Maybe the rule assumes the nieuport is always flying slightly lower cause if it is on the same level it can't shoot cause its gun is pointed slightly upward to miss the propeller?

    you can still crash into a friendly plane. You can also crash into an enemy plane NOT in your firing arc. We had both things happen in our last game.

  10. #10

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    Good day.
    I'd say that the rules are both applied. The situation is not static - the two planes are moving while the one with the upper Lewis is trying to fire and both risk to collide into each other, maybe after bullets are exchanged.

    So, when the firing plane has a higher machinegun and a target overlaps its firing cone...

    Target plane one level higher: fire at it long range.
    Target plane at same level with climb counters, firing plane without climb counters: fire at short range but not collision.
    Target plane at same level without climb counters, firing plane without climb counters: fire at short range and check for collision.
    Target plane at same level with climb counters, firing plane with climb counters: fire at short range and check for collision.
    Target plane at same level without climb counters, firing plane with climb counters: neither fire nor collision.

    Hope it's convincing enough to you. Collisions against your own target could happen. Ancillotto, whose Nieuport 11 is in our last release, was once so concentrated into his mission against a drachen, trying to get so close to be sure that the erratic rockets would hit it, to bump into the exploding balloon - once it was sure that it was being destroyed it was too late to avoid it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    He was back home with huge pieces of balloon hanging from his plane. Part of that was used to make a coat that he gave as a givt to the Duke of Aosta, commander of thye 3rd Army Ancillotto belonged to.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    He did it while firing rockets, not a machinegun, but I guess it can be taken as an example anyway. And maybe you know other episodes like this better than me.

  11. #11

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    Thanks Andrea, that clears that up nicely. I have dropped this into the FAQ sticky in the Rules sub-forum

    Quote Originally Posted by WWIAceofAces View Post
    Maybe the rule assumes the nieuport is always flying slightly lower cause if it is on the same level it can't shoot cause its gun is pointed slightly upward to miss the propeller?
    Its Lewis gun was mounted so its fire cleared the prop, it is pointed up slightly for the ballistics ie if it fired straight ahead the rounds would drop below the target, if fired slightly upward the rounds would drop on the target.
    With upward firing guns the RFC found there was a sweet spot about the 40 degree mark (iirc) where the ballistics and forward motion meant the rounds effectively travelled in a straight line and made it fairly accurate.
    Last edited by flash; 03-20-2017 at 03:23.

    "He is wise who watches"

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Not just the Comic Sven, the N.11, N.17, SE5a, or anything else with an over-wing Lewis - doesn't make sense does it.
    Does only the Comic come with this new card/rule? Which planes should it apply too? Might it apply to any place model that has an over the wing gun mounted?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Does only the Comic come with this new card/rule? Which planes should it apply too? Might it apply to any place model that has an over the wing gun mounted?
    Ken,
    I answered this question, in part, here: X-Wing fatigue appears to be setting in.

    Only the latest Ares release includes the plane specific Equipment Cards. The Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter (Comic) and the Nieuport 11 are the only planes that presently come with the card (not completely sure of this, they are the ones I have). For currently released models, it applies to the S.E. 5a, the Nieuports 16 (Nexus Balloon Buster Boxed Sets) & 17, and the 1 1/2 Strutter. Even though this card is in the Nieuport 11 box, IIRC, it is modelled with a fixed mount, not a Foster Mounting, and therefore could not be used to shoot at planes at higher altitudes. More learned Forum members can correct me.

    PS: Well, the Foster Mounting was invented very shortly after the introduction of the Nieuport 11, so some of them could have had Foster Mountings (Link: Wikipedia - Foster Mounting). The Wiki article adds the Avro 504K to the list, but it was used only in Home Defence against Zeppelins.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-20-2017 at 09:26.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #14

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    Yes, there is some ambiguity here.

    If the card applies to ALL top-wing-mounted guns, then it would also apply to two of the Breguet 17 models, as well as the Harvey/Waite Bristol Fighter.
    Then there's Shapeways; Martinsyde S.1, Martinsyde G.100 Elephant, Bristol Scout, Nieuport 16; all had top wing guns NOT on a Foster mount.

    If it applies ONLY to Foster mount guns, then it would have much less impact on the game; if ALL top-wing-mounted guns get it, then it's just another fleet-wide upgrade for the Entente, rewarding their inability to install interrupter gear.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Does only the Comic come with this new card/rule? Which planes should it apply too? Might it apply to any place model that has an over the wing gun mounted?
    The Comic comes with Fixed Higher Machine Guns optional rule cards, the N.11 comes with Higher Machine Gun optional rule cards - they are slightly different in content - Have a look here under Optional Rules Ken.

    The Foster mount was designed to make it easier to reload and clear your Lewis as you could pull it down nearer the cockpit, happily it also seems to have made it easier to use when firing upward too.

    I have seem image of the Lewis on other types of mount and it appears most allowed the gun to be pivoted upwards, the grip was in reach to pull its rear end down


    This one appears to be hinged


    This is Baracca's


    If you look at this one you can see a cable that runs to the business end of the gun - this is a release to allow the gun to be pivoted, it is clearly hinged and has a Bowden cable to the trigger, that will be fired from the stick so the pilot just has to pull it down.


    There's no mention of Foster mounts in the rule so I would have thought it applies to all.

    "He is wise who watches"

  16. #16

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    Thanks Dave/flash

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Good day.
    I'd say that the rules are both applied. The situation is not static - the two planes are moving while the one with the upper Lewis is trying to fire and both risk to collide into each other, maybe after bullets are exchanged.

    So, when the firing plane has a higher machinegun and a target overlaps its firing cone...

    Target plane one level higher: fire at it long range.
    Target plane at same level with climb counters, firing plane without climb counters: fire at short range but not collision.
    Target plane at same level without climb counters, firing plane without climb counters: fire at short range and check for collision.
    Target plane at same level with climb counters, firing plane with climb counters: fire at short range and check for collision.
    Target plane at same level without climb counters, firing plane with climb counters: neither fire nor collision.

    Hope it's convincing enough to you. Collisions against your own target could happen. Ancillotto, whose Nieuport 11 is in our last release, was once so concentrated into his mission against a drachen, trying to get so close to be sure that the erratic rockets would hit it, to bump into the exploding balloon - once it was sure that it was being destroyed it was too late to avoid it.
    Thank you mister Andrea for answering. Yes, the answer makes sense. The pictures are cool too.

    Thank you flash for helping me find out how to contact the creator of the game.



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