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Thread: Moon Base

  1. #1

    Default Moon Base

    Question for any space enthusiast. I watched the Netflix series about Mars colonization recently and as it closely follows Elon Musk and his plans I wondered........ Why is that man concentrating on sending his mission from Earth rather than putting a base on the moon? Surely without earth's gravity it would be easier to send a vehicle to Mars from the moon?

  2. #2

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    Honestly, I can't think of a good reason. We should start with a moon base and O'Neil colonies in L5 or L4 orbit. If we're going as far as Mars, might as well go to the Asteroid Belt, and do zero-G mining.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #3

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    I keep meaning to buy a whole set of 1/144 scale Space models! Anyway......

    I love reading about NASA and Elon and all that amazing Tech Space stuff! I hope we see a space colony in my lifetime!
    “Flying is hours and hours of boredom sprinkled with a few seconds of sheer terror!” Gregory “Pappy” Boyington, USMC”

  4. #4

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    That was the original US plan. L5 station followed by a moon base. From there a stepping stone to Mars. IIRC the timeline put us there by 2000. After the US beat the Soviets to the moon the governement didn’t care anymore. Skylab was a mere shadow of what it should have been and was supposedly to be. Shuttle ended up with the same treatment. It constantly lost funding but, in typical fashion, was told to do more with less.

    And take everything old Elon says with a grain of salt. He is a great showman and big talker. He is also grossly behind schedule and over budget. Not to mention he is getting a really sweet deal on facilities right now from the US government.

  5. #5

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    Yeah, I'm really happy to be here in NZ - who'd have thought we'd ever launch rockets & become one of the space faring nations!
    Uber cool!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwanaJoe View Post
    That was the original US plan. L5 station followed by a moon base. From there a stepping stone to Mars. IIRC the timeline put us there by 2000. After the US beat the Soviets to the moon the governement didn’t care anymore. Skylab was a mere shadow of what it should have been and was supposedly to be. Shuttle ended up with the same treatment. It constantly lost funding but, in typical fashion, was told to do more with less.

    And take everything old Elon says with a grain of salt. He is a great showman and big talker. He is also grossly behind schedule and over budget. Not to mention he is getting a really sweet deal on facilities right now from the US government.
    The original plans were rather pie-in-the-sky . I'm sure many of the difficulties found were not even considered. But yes, moneys went elsewhere after (and even during) the Apollo program.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  7. #7

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    I believe not so much pie-in-the-sky as very ambitious. And true, Apollo was cut short by three missions.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwanaJoe View Post
    I believe not so much pie-in-the-sky as very ambitious. And true, Apollo was cut short by three missions.
    One example is the unknown effects of prolonged zero-G on the body. Which does make O'Neil colonies more sensible, if we could build them.
    There is something to be said for the brute-force method
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BwanaJoe View Post
    That was the original US plan. L5 station followed by a moon base. From there a stepping stone to Mars. IIRC the timeline put us there by 2000. After the US beat the Soviets to the moon the governement didn’t care anymore. Skylab was a mere shadow of what it should have been and was supposedly to be. Shuttle ended up with the same treatment. It constantly lost funding but, in typical fashion, was told to do more with less.

    And take everything old Elon says with a grain of salt. He is a great showman and big talker. He is also grossly behind schedule and over budget. Not to mention he is getting a really sweet deal on facilities right now from the US government.
    I thought the 'original plans' were political. I could be wrong but I thought original NASA scientists didn't feel there was a big enough value going to the moon. Their original goal was ships built is orbit, probably L4 and L5, then slingshot to Mars. I wasn't until the space,
    or more accurately named arms, race did everything change to the moon. If it had been of such a great value we might have gone back by now. Mars first for truly off world colonization, the outward exploration and mining.

  10. #10

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    Like a lot things, it depended on the scientist you talked too. The moon was to be an intermediary stop and manufacturing point. And yep, L5 (or 4) was the spot for a permanent station with space only vehicle construction.

    But yes, without the “beat the Soviets” mentality, we’d still be earth bound in my opinion.

  11. #11

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    Although we've see talk about this from time to time. I don't really think there were many, if any, NASA scientists that wanted to go to the moon. Far to much effort and cost. Wernher von Braun was very proud of, and often talked about, his ideas of going to Mars. Also, at least at the start, he was fairly vocal in his frustration regarding NASA changing direction from Mars to the moon. There were no plans that NASA had, other than from politicians, about using the moon for a mid-point. Moving equipment off from one gravity well to another, only to take off again never had any realistic scientific support. Getting too the moon and then getting from it, simply cost far more that just building in orbit and launching from there. I think in one speech Von Braun even said that if we hadn't been diverted away from Mars we would have been there already; many think so now.

  12. #12

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    Big subject here but a couple of quick things. Von Braun was neither as smart, liked, or universally as respected as we think he is today. Matter of fact the public and much of NASA despised the man. For many reasons other than the fact he was a Nazi. Arrogance and hubris being just two others. NASA never switched from Mars to the moon. The plan was always to go to the moon first, establish a base later and the step off to Mars.

    No reason to debate the technical merits or feasibility of such plans. Whether it would or would not work wasn’t the original point. (I’m a computer guy myself, not an astro e.) The fact still remains, pie-in-sky or not, those were NASA’s original plans. Actually I just saw something that said they wanted two stations. The other orbiting around the moon.

  13. #13

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    All discussions I read have the moon as a mining base(s) for the L4/5 colonies, so the landing in a gravity well to leave it again wasn't an issue. Once full-blown colonies were up and running in orbit, further missions would be planned.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    All discussions I read have the moon as a mining base(s) for the L4/5 colonies, so the landing in a gravity well to leave it again wasn't an issue. Once full-blown colonies were up and running in orbit, further missions would be planned.
    Karl
    Sorry, I was talking about going to Mars. From what I have heard the moon was considered a distraction from going to Mars, that the comment about going from a gravity well, to anther gravity well just to get to mars and how that was never a realistic idea. The L4/L5 orbits might very well be a good idea, and might be a good place to build interplanetary ships. But in the moon race, we were in a race of one.

    There is more talk about returning to the moon today. But it is still a cost vrs return conversation. Even most of the private industry discussions today in the 21st century are still talking about Mars and/or the asteroid belt. The moon was great politics, a boost to moral and economics. Some have suggested the moon might be good testing new ideas and colonial techniques without the journey to Mars. It certainly would be cheaper than a major mishap on Mars but still considerably more than testing in Arizona or Hawaii.

    L4 and L5 orbits might be more likely and the moon too once the price is right. But for Mars, some feel we would have already been there if we hadn't gone to the moon first.

  15. #15

    Setarius's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
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    We all know that in today's society that one government alone is not going to put forth the money for any kind of future space exploration than what we currently have going on and keep the money flowing in amounts that would insure continued advances into space.
    As far as cooperating, I do not see enough World governments stepping forward to join hands and give anyone capable of putting a manned rocket into space enough money for a mission to Mars, the asteroid belt, or beyond.
    The U.S. with the government in the take from the poor and give to the rich mentality, along with the demand for more handouts won't be able to afford the continued cost of any kind of "space race".
    With the flood of refuge immigrants that Europe is experiencing I do not foresee any country in or out of the EU coming up with the necessary funds either.
    While all of this is very interesting to talk and speculate about, I unfortunately do not see it happening.
    Elon Musk may have some of the answers, and being over budget and having delays is all part of the equation in any kind of operation, from the simplest home repair job to the cost of space exploration. You never know the true costs of the depth of the problem until you get involved.
    Dont get me wrong, I would love to see a manned mission to Mars or somewhere else in my lifetime. And yes I was a fan of "Boldly going where no man's gone before" theme.

  16. #16

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    A recent article about some of the "lucky" ones.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...e-testing.html
    Holy cow, if it isn’t a stunt it has disaster written all over it. Those people are nuts. Really, go find water?! Sheesh.

    I believe you right are about the cost and the need for international cooperation Dale. No way, at this time, can any one country afford to do it alone. Well, at least not be able to it has a permanent endeavor. It would be more like the moon landings all over again.

    As far as SpaceX is concerned, that comment about budget and timeline was more in response to the whole “look how much better these commercial guys are doing” mentality in some circles. The truth is, like you said, these large almost projects almost always experience over-runs. It is just annoying to me, who lives a stones throw from the Cape, that there is a “don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain” mantra around thst particular program.

    And without getting political, I am neither poor, nor rich, but firmly middle class and as I do my taxes right now I can tell you the US government has certainly taken from me! And a LOT.
    Last edited by BwanaJoe; 03-12-2018 at 17:37.

  18. #18

    Setarius's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    A recent article about some of the "lucky" ones.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...e-testing.html
    All I can say is WOW.



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