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Thread: Observer Fire

  1. #1

    DougB
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    Default Observer Fire

    Has anyone tried out house rules to reduce the effectiveness of observer fire? I can understand the ease of play perspective of having the "A" shooting deck for all twin guns and the "B" for all single guns, but it seems to me that this makes two-seaters far more deadly than history would tend to bear out (Brisfits and the German CL types excepted).

  2. #2

    Default

    Our league limits firing to ony one set of guns or gun per phase. In other words if the observer is firing the pilot cannot fire and vice versa.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by LGKR View Post
    Our league limits firing to ony one set of guns or gun per phase. In other words if the observer is firing the pilot cannot fire and vice versa.
    We let all guns rip! The key here is that the rear gunner can't fire at the front where the pilot would be firing. I can't think of a time when both pilot and observer would be able to fire at the same target. Also, if the observer were, well, "observing" (or dropping bombs, etc.), then he can't fire that turn...same for a pre-occupied pilot who may be dropping a bomb...has to wait until the next turn.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by MayorJim View Post
    We let all guns rip! The key here is that the rear gunner can't fire at the front where the pilot would be firing. I can't think of a time when both pilot and observer would be able to fire at the same target. Also, if the observer were, well, "observing" (or dropping bombs, etc.), then he can't fire that turn...same for a pre-occupied pilot who may be dropping a bomb...has to wait until the next turn.
    The thinking is, if the pilot is aiming his guns he is using the whole plane to aim with. The observer would have a hell of a time staying on his target. This also limits the overkill of the two-seaters. We also limit bomb drops, photo recon etc.

  5. #5

    Default

    Try using ammo rules for the observer guns. I use 3 phases of fire for most Entente aircraft (Lewis guns with ~100rd drums) and 6 phases for most Central Powers aircraft (Parabellum MGs with 250rd belts). Treat them as if they automatically jam after the appropriate number of bursts, then use whichever version of the unjamming rules you use to represent reloading.

    I've also found that two-seaters are less deadly if the altitude rules are in play.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRM View Post
    I've also found that two-seaters are less deadly if the altitude rules are in play.
    Yes. Get under the tail and do an Albert Ball. If they drop down themselves it usually takes them into your wingmans fire when they slowly try to claw their way back up the sky.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  7. #7

    Default

    I haven't yet introduced any house rule to limit the effectiveness of the two-seater, however, I tend to go along with LGKR.

    To me the pilot is either manouvering to give the observer a good shot and thereby cannot shoot himself unless it is a quick burst as someone flies right across his front and therefore likely to be worse than useless, or the pilot is concentrating on getting his target and the observer then becomes redundant as a decent shot.

    I also do not see why this would not apply to any two-seater, the mythical Brisfit included.

    To get the best of both worlds how about letting the second shooter only fire if the target is at close range, the primary shooter can shoot as normal during the turn, just designate which is which?

  8. #8

    Default

    We just use the altitude and blind spot rules so far. I will see if they like the only front or rear guns can shoot each phase and see how they like them.

  9. #9

    Default

    Early two seaters had only a pivot mount, so I can see the point of only one gun fires. But later the F2B, RE8, and the DH's mounted the Scarff ring, which allowed 360 degree rotation and a limited degree of up/down movement. This, it seems to me would allow the gunner to continue to track his target provided pilot's maneuvers were not extremely violent.

    So I believe both pilot and gunner should be able to fire in the same phase.

    Best to all,

    Mac

  10. #10

    Default

    We have no restrictions, but use thaltitude rules and the realism comes from attacking from a correct historical angle as Rob says. Get under them and take them from behind.

  11. #11

    Default

    I agree with Rob and Tony. We use altitude rules now all the time and I have not noticed the two-seaters being that much more deadly, than say, an aeroplane being able to shoot in two directions. A two-seater does need to be dealt with "correctly" (i.e., using the rear gunner's blind spot against them; firing from below, etc), but I have not noticed them being dramatically superior overall. Certainly they have an advantage, but not an insurmountable one (given their poor climb rates and lack of an Immelman).

    So far I have found the rules to be well written and our players are not looking to recreate a technical game. We do use limited ammo in league and campaign games, and I may look into incorporating a reloading phase.

    Cheers!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belis4rius View Post
    ...how about letting the second shooter only fire if the target is at close range, the primary shooter can shoot as normal during the turn, just designate which is which?
    This is a good idea. I don't think you would have to designate which shooter is which though. In play the primary shooter is going to be the one with the longest shot. If both have short range shots it won't matter. Another idea would be to still limit the second shooter to short range but only allow a one card draw for damage. Then you would be back to designating first and second for short range only.



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