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Thread: Point system for WW2 Wings of Glory

  1. #1

    Default Point system for WW2 Wings of Glory

    A proposal, to be used for dogfights. Playtest if you want, thanks.



    Airplanes:
    Aichi D3A1 Val 80
    Avro Lancaster Mk.I/Mk.III 157
    Avro Lancaster Mk.III Dambusters 152
    Bell P-39D Airacobra 261
    Bell P-400 Airacobra 201
    Bell P-400 Airacobra Mk.I 198
    Boeing B-17F 366
    Boeing B-17G 390
    Bristol Beaufighter Mk.IF 298
    Bristol Beaufighter Mk.VIF 317
    Curtiss Kittyhawk Mk.I 150
    Curtiss P-40B/C/Tomahawk Mk.IIb 144
    Curtiss P-40E/F 210
    Dewoitine D.520 134
    Dornier Do.17 Z2 170
    Dornier Do.17 Z10 242
    Douglas SBD–5 Dauntless/A–24B Banshee 112
    Fiat Cr.42 102
    - Lighter armament +4
    Focke-Wulf FW.190-D9/D13 215
    Gloster Gladiator Mk.I 96
    Gloster Gladiator Mk.II 99
    Gloster Sea Gladiator Mk.I 99
    Grumman F4F-3/FM1 Wildcat/Martlet III 137
    Grumman F4F-3A Wildcat 200
    Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat 200
    Hawker Hurricane Mk.I 144
    Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIB 207
    Heinkel He-111H 208
    Junkers Ju-87B/R Stuka 81
    Junkers Ju-88A1 94
    Junkers Ju-88A4 106
    Kawasaki Ki-61-IB Hien 144
    Kawasaki Ki-61-II-KaiB Hien 271
    Kawasaki Ki-61-I-KaiC Hien 207
    Kawasaki Ki-61-I-KaiD Hien 297
    Kawasaki Ki-100-Ib Goshikisen 211
    Messerschmitt Bf.109E1 89
    Messerschmitt Bf.109E3 167
    - Limited Ammo: -40
    Messerschmitt Bf.109E4/E7 170
    - Limited Ammo: -40
    Messerschmitt Bf.109E6 98
    Messerschmitt Bf.109K 280
    - Optional armament +90
    - Jamming: -60
    Mitsubishi A6M2 Reisen 156
    Messerschmitt Bf.110C 235
    Nakajima Ki-43-IIb Hayabusa 84
    Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate 216
    North American B-25B/B-25C Mitchell 160
    North American P-51D Mustang 209
    Polikarpov I-16 Typ 5/6/16 50
    Polikarpov I-16 Typ 10 75
    Polikarpov I-16 Typ 17 150
    Polikarpov I-16 Typ 18/24 78
    Polikarpov I-16 Typ 29 56
    Reggiane Re.2001 Falco II / GV Falco II 125
    Reggiane Re.2001 CN Falco II 207
    Reggiane Re. 2002 Ariete 112
    Republic P-47D Thunderbolt 274
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I 163
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I (Wings of War) 158
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.Ib (Wings of War) 218
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.II 168
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.II (Wings of War) 161
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.IIb (Wings of War) 221
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.IX 229
    Yakovlev Yak 1 125
    Yokosuka D4Y1 97
    Yokosuka D4Y3 103

    Skills:
    Acrobatic Pilot 10
    Daredevil 6
    Exceptional Pilot 8
    Fire Expert 9
    Golden Touch 9
    Good at Escaping 7
    Intuitive 6
    Itchy Trigger Finger 8
    Lucky Pilot 13
    Perfect Aim 15
    Perfect Control 4
    Shadower 8
    Sharp Eye 15
    Sniper 18
    Strong Constitution 10
    Super Ace 12
    Technical Eye 7

    TWO-SEATERS AND MULTI-ENGINE PLANES SKILLS
    Precision bombardier: 6
    Precision dive bombing: 5


    Rookie -20 for all the crew - no ace skills allowed
    Up to three initial damages (5 if the plane has 25 or more), -3 each (-2 each if the plane has 25/34 points; -1 each if the plane has 35 or more).

    Here the WW1 version:
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...Wings-of-Glory
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 04-05-2023 at 23:25.

  2. #2

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    ooOOOoooh interesting...

  3. #3

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    Excellent. How did you derive the point values?

  4. #4

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    Oooh! Interesting.

    Looking at the Battle of Britain period, would the Spitfire Mk I/II be with the Nexus maneuver deck, or the new one to be released with the Ares planes? Ref link: WGS - Battle of Britain Update
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    For the moment, points are for the old ones. When the set will be released, these will be added:
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I (WGS) 163
    Supermarine Spitfire Mk.II (WGS) 166

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
    Excellent. How did you derive the point values?
    Complicated to sum up. Anyway a mix of damage sustained, agility (with additional/limited/missing maneuvres and how low is the minimum speed), how quick is the plane, firepower, non-standard firing cones, additional engines...

  7. #7

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    Andrea any chance some updates from the unofficial spreadsheet please?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  8. #8

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    Did anybody give it a try, maybe?

  9. #9

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    We are planning to try it during games night next Wednesday. I'll inform you of how it went.

  10. #10

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    Our Wednesday session has been put on hold. Geek and Sundry posted a short review of Sails of Glory and a couple of guys in my group read it and want to try that on Wednesday instead. (I've been singing the praises of SoG for months now but nobody wanted to play. Guess I need to improve my sales pitch.)

  11. #11

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    Ok, it's for a good cause!

  12. #12

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    What are the Lancasters and B-17s worth?

  13. #13

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    Working oin that in these very minutes, even if this points system is meant for dogfights (scenario balancement with bombing mission is more linked to goals, distances, etc than just with planes balance). They will be added, together with He-111 and B-25, within the weekend.

  14. #14

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    Andrea,

    I discussed this with you in November and it is already a reality! Really exciting!!!

    I started the process of converting the list into a spreadsheet to organize planes, points and track results. This weekend is fairly busy but I am going to make a point to drop all other leisure projects (like painting models) and focus on testing this. One request, can you add the Mitsubishi Zero and Grumman Wildcat (3&4)?

    Bombers create interesting issues. In addition to what you wrote above, bombers balance with enemy fighters more than enemy bombers. For example, how many 109's are needed to have a chance at stopping x3 B-17's?

    Awesome stuff, thank you Andrea!

  15. #15

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    Inserted bombers and Wings of War never reprinted miniatures. Given a few retouches to P-47, Beaufighter, options at bottom.

  16. #16

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    Sadly, Sails of Glory had to be postponed until (hopefully) next week as two guys were down with the flu and a third took an overtime shift and couldn't make it.

  17. #17

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    We have some results flying P-51s vs FW.190s and sent the info to Andrea.

  18. #18

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    Consolidating what I emailed to Andrea:

    The testing was done with P-51's and FW.190's. We started by concocting some point formulas in 2v2 battles just to get the feel of the abilities since they have seen little use here. Given the initial point difference between the planes we finally gave 16 points to the German pilots, both getting Itchy Trigger Fingers and 28 to the US pilots more asymmetrically with Lucky Pilot and Perfect Aim so each side had 446 points.

    Full Game: Both P-51s pulled a crew damaged counter on the first pass, with Lucky pulling the 4, which would have been a disaster so Lucky was used on turn two. The first 190 fell on turn 3 because even with a wounded pilot the Perfect Aim ability is big. The surviving German focused fire on the Perfect Aim P-51, which caught on fire then subsequently exploded. Even starting with a slight lead of 4-0 damage it was scary for the P-51 going up against the Trigger Fingered 190 as damage mounted on both sides. An misstep with turn planning ended up costing the 190 in the end but that Trigger ability is fierce once HP is at under 50% because of the initiative advantage. Afterward we did a few single pass and preset positioning scenarios with the same skills to observe the different interactions to test this sort of thing. No surprises, and 8 or less points going head on into a FW.190 in not a smart move.

    To recap, Perfect Aim seemed very strong, 3 counters can be timed with turning to seriously power up a plane with each pass. Lucky seemed a bit underwhelming but the surviving plane had this skill so maybe heal mechanics are more about function than excitement. Trigger Finger does nothing at first but gets stronger as the game progresses and seemed balanced in terms of points. FYI, we limited the skill variety during the first session to really test them out in various situations with the abilities we did have.

    Next steps:

    My plan to continue to test various combos with Series 5 planes. In addition to have similar speed and HP profiles, they also represent the height of fast paced WWII air battles more than any other set. I want to set something up with all four S#5 planes on the table, each type on their own side of the map in a FFA. Then next up will be Wildcats v Zeros with possible Warhawks and Vals thrown in to try different point configurations.

  19. #19

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    The Girl Scouts have not given me back my second table yet so the fast plane challenge has been put on hold.

    The upside is many games between Wildcats and Zekes have been played. We still need to check something out before reporting but the results so far are NOT as predicted...

  20. #20

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    We're now scheduled to play Wings of Glory next week using the points system. I've set up three scenarios to let the other guys choose a theatre that interests them. #1) Battle of Britain: 109s, Hurris, Spits, and Stukas (and maybe a 110). #2) Cactus Air Force: Wildcats, SBDs, and P-40s vs Vals and Zeroes. #3) Bomber Command. My own house rules (heavily influenced by GMT's Nightfighter boardgame) featuring Lancasters vs Bf 110s.

    At any rate, the Sails of Glory game was hit and miss. We were hoping to have eight players show up but in the end only five were able to make it. As none of the players had any previous experience, I did a simple 3 vs 3 open ocean battle between the French and the English. The players were much more cagey than usual so the battle took almost three hours to finish as nobody was willing to close range and everyone was trying to manoeuvre for a raking shot. One of the five loved the game and immediately placed an order for $900 worth of base game and expansions. One (who initially requested the game) was not that taken with it and felt that it was fun but that it needed streamlining. He thought that Star Wars: Armada basically played the same but had a cleaner interface and that Sails of Glory needed to clean up the way crew orders were executed (he didn't like the fact that some orders executed immediately while others took time to complete). the other two didn't care for it and felt there were too many things to keep track of and that controlling more than one or two ships would be too difficult. I'm happy that one person ordered stuff (it'll give me another person to play against) but I understand the complaints of the others players. Personally, I love the game but I accept that it can be overly cumbersome.

  21. #21

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    What would the points for the 109K if it's being played with 13mm cannons rather than the erroneous printed 15mm cannon in the cowling? Or do you have a points breakdown for the weapons in general?

  22. #22

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    Played several scenarios between the following planes at x2 each with maximum total points at 340 each:
    Grumman F4F/FM1 Wildcat/Martlet III 137 pts
    Mitsubishi A6M2 Reisen 156 pts

    In all games the zeros had one ability each while the Wildcats had up to three each. I thought the sheer pile on of abilities would make the Wildcats superior. I was wrong and the Zeros were still wrecking the Wildcats. We eventually figured out a competitive combination that could win. We liked that the more optimal combo was also thematic for the Wildcats. At some point this exercise would make for a great strategy discussion, but technically it is not a play test subject so I will leave it for now. What this also showed is merely piling on abilities to fill in the gap between plane cost differences will not produce a great result. It seems like these two planes are balanced well given the current point values and pool of abilities. But... (because there is always a but or however) There are two issues we found:

    Grumman F4F-4 delivers an additional A counter at long range and B counter at short making it better than other Wildcats or Martlet. The F4F-4 should cost more than the other versions.

    Question: Looking at Sniper vs Perfect Aim. Why Sniper is better than Perfect Aim? It seems like Sniper let's a player look at two counters and inflict one while Perfect Aim would inflict both. For Perfect Aim, does the opponent get to pick what type of extra damage counter or the player holding the ability? Am I missing something?

    That is all for now. Next will be getting the four fast planes from series five on the table.
    Last edited by Tokhuah; 03-18-2017 at 09:17. Reason: Correction in italics

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokhuah View Post
    Question: Looking at Sniper vs Perfect Aim. Why Sniper is better than Perfect Aim? It seems like Sniper let's a player look at two counters and inflict one while Perfect Aim would inflict both. For Perfect Aim, does the opponent get to pick what type of extra damage counter or the player holding the ability? Am I missing something?
    Perfect Aim allows the firer to give the target an additional 'A' damage chit, no matter what the stated damage is for the aircraft. It is the same as the Aim bonus (and the Firing from higher bonus), and does not stack with that rule. Perfect Aim is also subject to Disruption - if you take damage during any given turn you lose any Aim bonus for the next turn.

    Sniper allows the firer to take two counters of one type of damage, look at both and give one to the target, placing the other back in the chit pool.

    So a Zero with sniper at close range firing ACC at a Wildcat would give their opponent an A chit and a C chit, then select two more C chits, look at both, give the target one and return the other to the chit pool. A Zero with Perfect Aim would also give the Wildcat another A damage chit.
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 03-18-2017 at 03:13.

  24. #24

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    I'm a bit confused with your record of Zeros vs. Wildcats. In the games I have played and witnessed, the matchup is much closer.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  25. #25

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    May I ask you, Scott, whether you used the Zero's with the damage points and movement deck as provided by Nexus or the reduced damage points and movement deck with the additional tight turns as suggested on this site, please?

  26. #26

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    @Carl: Thank you for the clarification. We were playing it functionally the way you mentioned. We had the person getting damaged pick the chit which was always A. I still am unclear on the disruption portion of the rule. What really threw us off is the text after the comma:

    "When firing, this ace may choose to have his opponent take an additional counter of damage, even if he did not shoot at the same airplane in the previous firing phase"

    It still seems like Aim is situationally better than Sniper, the Val being an excellent example.

    @David: We are using the original rules. At some point it would be great to test the site cards as well as some non-official planes. The issue will be agreeing on point values.

    @Karl: In games you witnessed did the Wildcat player(s) use the McWorther F4F-4 Wildcat? We technically did not (I edited my previous post to clarify the difference in my report). What we did is when a Zero was damaged we also drew counters as if it was from a F4F-4, notated the additional damage and then returned the counter(s) to the bag. We noticed the compiled damage from the superior plane would have changed the outcome of many of the games, in other words the planes appeared to be more evenly matched, which would suggest the F4F-4 should have a point value more aligned with the Zero.

    More edits:
    To get more play testing sets done we set up a countdown from 10. After the first turn when damage is drawn we count down 1 on any turn when no damage is drawn by either side. If at the end of a turn we count down to 0 the game is over. This avoids drawn out games where remaining planes are chasing each other around the board to reset to fresh plane sets baring down on each other.
    Last edited by Tokhuah; 03-18-2017 at 09:52. Reason: I write bad in the morning because I am a nightbomber

  27. #27

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    I know at least one of the game used F4F-4, since he blew me apart with his first shot (Thanks Tom {CappyTom})
    We usually had 3+ planes on a side, so F4F-4s and F4F-3 s were on the field.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  28. #28

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    Andrea added a separate entry for the F4F-4 at 200 points. Crunching numbers on my spreadsheet it looks like a 3v3 (as Karl suggests) using a 4-1-1 Wildcat configuration vs 3 Zeros at 500 pts per side looks interesting. We will belay our next adventure to try this first while its hot!

    Edit: I need to prioritize a trip out to Ohio at some point, it seems like you have a great group based on your posts.

  29. #29

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    Well, Origins in June is your best bet; lots of gaming, and a good gathering from all over the 'Drome.
    While I don't have a group in Akron, I go down to the Columbus monthly game 3-4 times a year. They mostly do WGF, though.
    CappyTom was running games at his church monthly also, but I'm not sure of the status of that.
    Dayton area runs games monthly also; Matt (matt56) is a contact for that.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  30. #30

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    Concluded the Wildcats vs Zero tests and sent info to Andrea.

    Ran some series 5 games with all planes simultaneously represented, talk about getting the old circulation pumping! It actually made me think of the FFA on the Sky Gamblers - Storm Raiders video games. It makes me want to set something up that includes re-spawning and a wind-down turn clock with the winner being the pilot with the most kills.

    For now just doing 4 planes at 250 points each, will also duo those tests at some point. Will also need to bring in the series 6 fighters. I feel a fast plane March madness format coming on...

    RE: BoB set, playing purely for pleasure because there should be enough people scooping those up to provide results elsewhere. I want to get to bombers soon and mixed groups including bombers of various sizes.

  31. #31

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    Still running fast plane tests with nothing broken found in the points vs abilities. I am particularly fond of the 250 point Mustang (hint: handling+) and would eventually like to get into strategy discussions around cool point+plane combos. Testing fast vs slow+points matches soon.

    But, I confess, I could not stay away from the BoB stuff and decided to post the following session on bgg to help promote the game. And to bring it home here, the final play actually takes an existing scenario and tests the playability of using a different plane and balancing it by using the point system: Bursts in the Dark.

    Special thanks to my daughter for agreeing to run the German bot planes in most scenarios to speed up games so I could get more done. Also, how about a photo of my mobile war room?
    Click image for larger version. 

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  32. #32

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    Do we have an idea of the (hopefully negative) cost for "spluttering engines"? and one for "reverse diver" as well?

  33. #33

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    The system does not consider altitude nor special rules linked to altitude.

  34. #34

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    Base on a conversation in another thread that included accusations that the point system is arbitrary I got together my cast of usual suspects to try out a specific challenge. This scenario tests a Hurricane (144) with Lucky Pilot (13) and Acrobat Pilot (10) vs a 109E3 (167) with no abilities.

    On the surface the 109 appears to be a vastly superior plane. The funny thing is that if you compare long range damage (B vs C) and hit points (17) the planes are effectively equal at a distance. What makes the 109 better is the close range damage difference by an additional "A" counter. With that in mind, an effectively timed Lucky Pilot will prevent a single counter of 5, 6, or 8 HP of damage or even a devastating special damage counter. Add Acrobat to assist effective positioning (hint: it is legal with Acrobat to use with a slow steep maneuver after an Immelmann). So, if the Hurricane can stay away from the 109 close shot they have a fighting chance.

    In 10 trials played with this match-up that included 2 planes of each type the Hurricane held its own, winning 4 and playing one to a draw. Of note, we end games if there are 10 separate turns, not necessarily in order, where no damage has been dealt after the first damage counter has been inflicted to avoid long drawn out games when in testing mode. This means more game played. The 109 did win 5 and managed to shoot down both Hurricanes with both German planes still in the air twice (something the Hurricanes could not do). If the Hurricanes were not extremely careful they were done because of the inferior close range capability. Still, most games were close and the Hurricanes won enough for us to think the point system works between these two planes.

    Others may try this with different results because we missed an obvious tactic, but that is all part of the process.

    What is next? Since Andrea intends to lower Fire Expert to 3 pts. how about this:

    Warhawk+Fire Expert vs x3 Vals

    I could fill in the abilities a bit on both sides to do a 250 point battle but prefer to see if sheer numbers overwhelms the point system with limited external factors.

  35. #35

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    SO excited to hear all this through testing!

    Out of interest, did you have any rules limiting the ammo/cannons of the 109's? I have always thought that to be essential.

  36. #36

  37. #37

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    This time we ran the 109 without limited Amo. Flying it with that rule would be interesting because at -40 points the Hurricane becomes the more expensive plane.

  38. #38

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    Oh! it drops planes by 40 points??
    I think that card should be treated as a 0 point correction not a penalty...

  39. #39

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    -40 is what's above. It seems a bit high. Now I need to drag the 109s and Hurricanes back out. I just picked up the Nexus Belgium MkI on ebay a few minutes ago (if only the British one were so easy to find) so maybe I will wait until that arrives so I get test drive it!

  40. #40

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    Sorry what I was implying is that I would argue that card is necessary regardless of a point system, that cannons are overpowered as a starting point without that card. So I *potentially* disagree with the current point system allocating its value at -40 points. I would have imagined it to be a necessary card for all or most planes with cannons. I understand it has only been released currently with the 109's (any other places its been released?)

  41. #41

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    I do not think the 109s (and by statistic association the Zero) are 167 (156) point planes with limited ammo. Maybe not 127 but with only four shots before they effectively become worse than a Gladiator there should be some compensation. Longer games with more planes in the sky and Lucky Pilot even makes Limited Amo planes worse. Forget any realism for a moment, just balance, since the C and B counters have the exact same average damage then the only real shooting advantage the early 109s have over a FM-1 Wildcat is a single A counter.

    I am open to suggestions and welcome debate, that is part of what makes testing game modifications fun. I am also willing to put some suggestions on the table that may help me understand the need for Limited Amo without reducing the point value.

  42. #42

  43. #43

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    Interesting read, Scott.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  44. #44

    Panzerfrank
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    Thank you Andrea, have there been any considerations made into how many points AA guns are worth please?

    I put the Dunkirk scenario from this site a few weeks back (AAR will be coming soon), but with the Brits outnumbered 7 to 3, the guns themselves were the equalisers.

    I'm trying to run a brief Siege of Malta game and trying to figure out how much the guns should be worth.

  45. #45

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    I'll think about that. Remember that the point system is made for altitude-less dogfights, and the power of AA guns varies a lot with or wityhout these rules.

  46. #46

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    Lil GR will be happy to help me playtest these. I saw them, forgot about them. He has been asking to play Wings or Star Wars (knowing I like Wings, but he prefers Star Wars). Otherwise, I will work them into my scenario's when I do them in July when the family is gone.

  47. #47

  48. #48

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    When I eventually paint the Dalek miniatures I have I will post something in the thread!

    This reminds me, I owe a write-up for the one Warhawk vs three Vals test games that we ran pvp and then I did solo (with similar rules to the scenario book mission)... Will try to get to it this week.

  49. #49

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    The official Wings of Glory WW2 Point system can be downloaded on Ares Games website :
    http://www.aresgames.eu/19239

    Click image for larger version. 

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  50. #50

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    Very nice; thanks for the pointer, Monse.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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