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Thread: Drafting a note to Ares re recent worrying trends, collaboration appreciated

  1. #1

    Default Drafting a note to Ares re recent worrying trends, collaboration appreciated

    So, as noted I'm working on a note to Rob on the recent pattern of worrying QC issues, and I thought it might carry more weight if it had the strength of Community Consensus behind it.

    Rob, there've been some issues I've been noticing forming a disturbing pattern over the past year's releases--I didn't want to throw the Problem Flag without having some ideas to take corrective action, but after months of thought it seems that it might be best to just call it as I see it, let the chips fall where they will and then see if between all of us we can come up with a viable plan where I've just been spinning my wheels on my own. If this means my usefulness is at an end so be it, but I owe it to both you and the game community to present the issues I've observed firsthand and heard repeatedly mentioned to try to figure out why this pattern keeps happening and how we can stop it... and how we can make right for the miniatures already out in the wild, since entire production runs are too big for recall.

    • Sopwith Triplane wing spacing - not to beat a dead horse, but this seems to be where the pattern of otherwise-excellent models with head-scratching "Wait-WHUT?!" major mistakes started.
    • Beaufighter Mk. VI tailgroup on Mk. I/II aircraft - a simple one, but still a headscratcher. We know you can tool detail-variations on a sculpt, so why not both Mk I/II flat and Mk VI dihedral tailplanes to suit the models? All it would have taken was different mounting tabs, less work than even the 1- and 2-seat variations on the Sopwith 1-1/2 Strutter.
    • Bf109K incorrect wings and tailgroup - glaringly obvious. We know you can do better, we've SEEN it on the market, how did this one happen? While I bought yours for collection completeness, my miniatures will probably never leave their boxes and instead see their bases and cards used with third-party models for play.
    • SGN108 and SGN201 gunport-layout major issues - Head scratcher. Neither model's gunport arrangement is correct for anything ever built, which is a personal burr under my saddle since *I* sent you links to the original draughts and even some mid-life rebuilds. As with the Bf109K, as soon as I find more accurate hulls in the same scale the "official" miniatures will be permanently replaced and retired to storage in their original boxes.
    • SGN109 and SGN110 backward spritsails - Your CAD modeler "billowed" the spritsail the wrong direction.
    • SGN110 gun projection - Design level, guns only project from their ports at extreme ends.
    • wrong-scale SGN111 Meregildos 112 and SGN112 Gautier 74s - SGN111 and 112 both measure out as 1/1200, more closely matching the size of the Langton 1/1200 Meregildos on SGN101 than SGN108/201 which it should be at least the same size as for the "short" version of the Meregildos design. Not to mention the apparent cutting-corners by shrinking the mini to re-use SGN104 masts rather than doing it right... Similarly SGN112, which appears to also be downscaled to 1/1200 to maintain proportion relative to SGN111, is closer to the size of pewter 1/1200 offerings rather than somewhere between the sizes of SGN102 and SGN104 as it should be.

    In light of this pattern, I must suggest that when the Wave 4 3d models are ready to go to pre-production, it might be prudent to have David, Jose Manuel and myself review and sign-off on the model designs and suggest any final revisions as required BEFORE the CAD models are transferred to the toolmaker to start cutting metal, and to send us photos including rulers for scale reference of the pre-production samples for review before committing to production for release. This also seems to be a systemic pattern by your modelmakers, so an in-house Root Cause Analysis would seem to be in order trying to figure out why they're consistently glitching at least one model almost every recent release.

    Here's what I've come up with for a few ideas we might discuss as possible options on making things right:
    • Sopwith Triplane wing spacing - this ship has sailed, the damage is done. However, should you start running out of Entente fighter sculpts a re-tool might work to fill a slot, just have to retire the old tooling and re-use the new when re-running its wave.
    • Beaufighter Mk. VI tailgroup on Mk. I/II aircraft - it's very simple to fix, pop the tailplanes off, file down the mounting tabs and reglue. But the point still stands that that's a DIY correction we shouldn't HAVE to do.
    • Bf109K incorrect wings and tailgroup - not readily fixable. Less die-hards will probably never know, but I would suggest flagging the Bf109K to get the same treatment I propose for the Tripe, a "Mulligan" do-over resculpt when you run out of Axis fighter sculpts. In the interim, I would suggest either directly or via Licensing Partner if Keith is game for it and can find a 3d-modeler collaborator offering a produced-on-demand Correction Kit through Shapeways with replacement wingtips and tailgroup. Also, the big gaping holes underwing with no external stores to fill--on no-payload models it would have been very simple to fill those with putty or a plug before painting, or even just pump 'em full of paint.
    • SGN108 and SGN201 gunport-layout major issues - another BIG challenge fixing. Most of the casual players probably won't care but for the seriously historically-minded it matters in a big way. My suggestion here involves two new lines--first, as part of the Accessory Line offering Spare Mast Sets, which would be a welcome addition for fumble-fingered klutzes like me too. Second part, like Bf109K, offer a series of Produce-On-Order Correction Hulls via Shapeways--the hardcore types won't mind doing their own assembly and painting, and as a bonus with no tooling cost this would allow more variations to better capture the major visible differences between the three-decker designs.
    • SGN109 and SGN110 backward spritsails - for the already released, owner-performed surgery for the customers where it matters. For future reprints, the spritsail/jib piece needs to be retooled.
    • SGN110 no-gun gunports - can be fixed by customer but a nuisance to do so. Inner-hull insert with guns should probably be retooled to extend most guns.
    • wrong-scale SGN111 Meregildos, aka "MINI-gildos," and SGN112 - see SGN108 and SGN201.

    This pattern, combined with an overall decline in quality since Sails Wave 2 which may be traceable to the standard practices of Chinese manufacturing where they relax their standards each batch (an Anchorage member with his own experience in the same sector dealing with China observed a reduction of meeting-spec by about 1% every order with his business) figuring once they have you hooked you won't go to the expense of changing vendors, is of no small concern to the serious customer-base. It sucks having to be hardline and break bad news about this, but part of my role is to be an advocate for the community--and the natives have noticed this pattern along with growing inconsistency in detail and scale-fidelity and are growing restless. We CAN do better, we SHOULD if we're serious about earning their money, and we MUST if we want to avoid negative word of mouth slowly poisoning the brand. If not checked, this sequence of decay will eventually lead to a product of completely unacceptable quality; the question without corrective action is not if the time will come when you must pay the piper but *when,* though there will probably be steady desertions as individual customers hit their tolerance limits as you approach that breaking point. There have already been a number of these at this point as it is, and there WILL be more.
    I welcome any suggestions you guys might have on this--it's also crossposted at the Anchorage for the Sails-only guys. Markup as you see fit, the main point is trying to point out the elephant in the room and get them to try to figure out what's causing this string of problems and how to stop it before the next wave enters Pre-Production.

    Latest revisions will be in red text.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 02-04-2017 at 22:29.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  2. #2

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    WOW! Not my idea of making friends of Ares. No one likes to be publicly shredded. They are well aware of the issues and ganging up on them only reduces their willingness to feed the hands that so bite them. Get real, this is a hobby industry, not Mattel Inc. We are such a tiny market that I am afraid they may say "Bye". Count me out on this nuclear option . . .

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    Dave, they brought me in specifically TO "speak truth to power" and tell them what I believe they need to hear however painful it may be. I value my integrity more than any paycheck, which I'm not even getting one of for my long hours of hard labor. (Not complaining, just noting that I've walked away from higher-paying posts over lesser issues.)

    If you have a better way to make the point, by all means please share with the class.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  4. #4

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    Sorry, your message did not inform us of your commission . . .

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    There was the other problem with the Me109-K's, namely the mounting holes below the wings and no rocket tubes, cannon pods, bombs or drop tanks to put in them except in one case.

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    Oops... it's common knowledge over on the Sails side that I'm one of their Historical Consultants and have been ever since the Kickstarter--next wave of Sails is almost entirely derived from research undertaken on my own initiative. I do not seek quarrel, but when you look at things across both lines there's an Elephant In The Room of detrimental pattern, and somebody needs to call it to their attention if it's going to be addressed.

    For the record, I'm also a syndicated columnist on a large national politics and activism website (would rather not say which, I like to keep my politics and my hobbies separated so the former doesn't ruin the latter), and I recently almost turned in my creds there over less.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  7. #7

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    I fully support your point, Diamondback. It takes the same time to make a good model and a wrong one. Especially with long production intervals like these of Ares. And must say the looong awaited, but faulty Bf109K model really drove me MAD.
    Last edited by Nightbomber; 02-05-2017 at 11:28.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  8. #8

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    Can I suggest that they find out who did the Nexus sculpts as they seemed to be able to produce models with things that actually looked wing-like rather than a shaped planks they turn out now ! The reprints for series 1 were FUBAR (I didn't buy, or, keep many) and most releases since have been little better; I dread to see what they've done to series 3.
    All the models seem have some kind of issue with them, some easier to live with than others, the Tripe's wing spacing probably one of the most glaring but it was a good sculpt and could easily be fixed with new struts if they get to reprint.
    So tell 'em how it is DB, why not, though I'm not sure the repetition will bear fruit I'd be interested in their response, if there is one.

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    Let's not forget the infamous Zeppelin-Staaken "gap".

  10. #10

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    I worry about the upcoming Series 3 reprint Albatros D.IIIs

    To my eye, the Nexus ones had the top wing set too high, owing to all the struts being too long (and very thick). This also meant that the undercart was too big, and so the plane ended up looking like a short, fat version of the sleek fighter plane it should be.

    I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but, just in case, I have gathered a gaggle of F-Toys D.IIIs, and also bought in a half dozen Shapeways birds.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    I would also like the Staaken to be looked at, for me two issues with this, which I have already mentioned, but.....
    The top wing made in two halves and they dont fit together, pics can be supplied. Now this should have been a one piece casting and it can be done as Red Eagle/skytrex show with theirs.
    But a bigger problem is the cam pattern, this should be also be one pice with the pattern the same all along the wing and NOT placed in a herring bone pattern pointing inwardsmeeting at the centre join. Again a lot of money paid for these models but basic things wrong.
    Thank you for bringing up the Sopwith Trirubbish.. saved me going frothy at the mouth again

  12. #12

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    My other observation that I haven't figured out how and where to slip in is pointing out that one or two every now and again will inevitably slip through, but that this pattern is way past "the occasional oops" and looking more like "systemic dysfunction at some level between model design and tool fabrication."

    I saw one estimate recently that said where the US and Asia compete head to head, it costs 20-30% or so more to "Make American." Would any of us pay 30% more for American-made minis? Alternatively, the Vietnamese are up-and-coming and looking to eat China's lunch... and I know that Hasbro and a few other big-leaguers have been moving part of their production south. Or, can anybody Over There tell us anything about Eastern Europe for manufacturing, like Poland or Czech Republic or Slovakia?

    I feel like we should be trying not for a Dogpile of Grievances, but just looking for a consensus on what the Pattern of Failure is and how to fix it, stipulating that there's a spectrum between durable but sacrificing accuracy for same on one and and museum- or contest-grade fine-scale models on the other and gaming miniatures necessarily have to slot into that spectrum probably slightly more toward the "toy" end. Unfortunately, to reach understanding of the underlying pattern we have to look at the field of data in its entirety... and sometimes such discussion is a bit painful.

    I mean, does anybody really think I WANTED to delve into dirty laundry, especially since I'd like to work for Ares paid full-time if the opportunity arises? No, this is a "necessity of desperation" making a difficult and painful assessment of things trying to figure out how to tell people I've considered personal friends that their company is having systemic problems that threaten the image and reputation of their product line and their company itself.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 02-05-2017 at 13:03.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I saw one estimate recently that said where the US and Asia compete head to head, it costs 20-30% or so more to "Make American." Would any of us pay 30% more for American-made minis? Alternatively, the Vietnamese are up-and-coming and looking to eat China's lunch... and I know that Hasbro and a few other big-leaguers have been moving part of their production south. Or, can anybody Over There tell us anything about Eastern Europe for manufacturing, like Poland or Czech Republic or Slovakia?
    I've been trying to tell people this for years, but they're all such hopeless Hidebound Traditionalists -- worse than the Infantrytards I know.

    "It's always been this way; and thus it will always be this way."

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I mean, does anybody really think I WANTED to delve into dirty laundry, especially since I'd like to work for Ares paid full-time if the opportunity arises? No, this is a "necessity of desperation" making a difficult and painful assessment of things trying to figure out how to tell people I've considered personal friends that their company is having systemic problems that threaten the image and reputation of their product line and their company itself.
    Not to put too fine a point on it: I do not believe the current management are competent to run this operation; while the Chinese are to be trusted about as far as they can be collectively thrown. I do believe it is long-past time for someone Over Here -- WHERE THE PREDOMINANT MARKET IS -- to take control; or, failing that, allow the game to pass quietly, and be replaced with something else.

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    NOT HELPFUL, Frenchy, even though the frustration is understandable. This is supposed to be "constructive thinking to Fight With The Army We HAVE," not "destroy what we have and have nothing while we wait for The Army We Want"...
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

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    And if that were a viable option, I'd have gone with it.

  16. #16

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    Though the consensus seems to be short of your position, I suppose it does have some use for pointing out that "every botched release pushes more people into the same camp as That Guy."
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  17. #17

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    [OFFTOPIC]
    Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia aren't Eastern Europe. Central Europe, please, for all of them.
    It is almost the same mistake like the White House is in Washington state.
    [/OFFTOPIC]

  18. #18

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    Daniel, my apologies--I'm still having some trouble with that "no more Iron Curtain" thing. No offense intended.

    However, now that you've joined the party, know of anywhere in the manufacturing sector over there that might be competitive or better value as an alternate?
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  19. #19

    Thumbs up

    G'day D.B. !
    I think due to the fact that you have been asked to advise Ares it is important to alert them to the many problems you have listed.

    Hopefully they will take it in a positive way & look at improving the product that we all love so well,

    Feel free to use my post if you wish.

  20. #20

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    "There is only ONE boss here: the customer, and he can fire EVERYONE from CEO down simply by choosing to spend his money somewhere else."
    --Sam Walton, founder of Wal-Mart
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  21. #21

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    Some more important points are missing like the plain thickness of the D4Y wings, missprints on the WGF Hannover plane card (missing rear firing arc), wrong printed damage of top & rear turret on the base of the Lancaster Grog's the Shot, inverted position of the B17's cheek gun in contrast to the plane card, missprints of SoG HMS Victory movement cards or wrong cannon/crew numbers on the USS Constitution's card, etc...

    But do those failures justify a demand of pretesting by some specialist?

    I do not display my WoG and SoG stuff on a shelf and if I setup a SoG battle my co-gamers are happy if they can read the name of the ships. They're happy if the recognize a fat one as a first rate and a smaller one as 3rd rate. Fat = more guns & not so maneuverable as a smaller one. ...and have a look for the flags! Could be an enemy.

    Same goes for WoG. My gamers like the coloured WGF planes and the deadliness of the WGS ones. Of course they know the difference between bombers, twoseaters and scouts. But they ask for hitpoints, agility and firepower.

    A few days ago I saw a video on youtube. Someone displayed the WGF system with a duel pack and praised the prepainted model the simple, easy to learn mechanics and the less money you need to play WoG.

    The only question I maybe expect from one of my co-gamers would be: What happened to the upper wing of this Sopwith tripe?



    So I'm not in...



    I like the fact that WoG is still alive, we get reprints with new painted versions (maybe not the quality of an old Nexus model). SoG is a great game with a lot of nice different ships and an intersting gameplay. Of course we have to make some quality concessions, but I would not change to other miniatures or game systems because of this.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  22. #22

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    Agree that if I'm going to part with hard earned Hobby cash on models I would prefer if they looked correct, within the constraints of being durable for gaming use obviously. Otherwise it's third part models and home-made movement decks if I really want to play that particular craft.

    Tony.

  23. #23

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    apart from what was mention, id point out that on many of the latests releases the leading/trailing edges of wings, tailplanes, and rudders show markedly different coloring than the surrounding control surfaces. even more so than earlier ares releases. one wonders why the pieces arent molded in the color of the upper surfaces and the lower surface colors being painted or transferred on instead of the apparent reverse.

    also id note the exaggerated dihedral, the overlong radio room window, and lack of tail position windows on the b-17s. more glaringly the mistake in nose gun layout for the memphis belle with it only having one nose gun when pictures clearly show 2 and the oddly restricted #1 gun position firing arc. no mounting that i know of wouldve been this restricted.

    i fully realize these are playing pieces as opposed models and none of these issues have ever kept me from buying any minis. but as jabba said, id rather they be more historically accurate than otherwise.

  24. #24

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    Thanks, Phillip. Memphis Belle's AWOL right cheek gun is a known issue, I personally gave them the B-17 engineering data and they "did it to make the two models different".

    Tony, I'm not "demanding protest," but trying for a Root Cause Analysis, and fiuring out what percentage of the problem is Home Office and what percentage is Overseas Subcontractor--all these issues are annoying, but in the big picture they're really symptoms. Some are bigger than others... but perhaps adding a better QC process at multiple stages of production would have prevented them all.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  25. #25

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    I fully support you Daimondback. Although I have nothing to do with Sails for me the biggest issue I have with Wings apart from the obvious errors is the unfinished edges around the plane. Shifting from paint to transfers or stickers or whatever is used has made them look like little kids toys rather than trying to be as accurate as possible within the constraints most notably size, but still, If Nexus could make them look amazing (I've had many compliments on the detail of my Nexus minis and not one on a Ares model, just an observation, not a jab) why can't Ares follow the same procedures? I would happily pay more for finer details and hand painted minis especially if the were made in America.

    Only other thing I can really gripe about is the plane choices they are making for their WW2 releases but that might be a discussion for another day.

    In bringing up these 2 negative points among the hundreds of positives I want to say how much I appreciate what Ares does for us and want to thank them for not giving up on Wings and us!

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    Not sure if this is helpful but as mentioned many times the movement cards are too dark. Also, I do not like the way rhe planes are packed. They can be easily broken trying to get them out.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Though the consensus seems to be short of your position, I suppose it does have some use for pointing out that "every botched release pushes more people into the same camp as That Guy."
    Exactly -- and as you so eloquently quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    "There is only ONE boss here: the customer, and he can fire EVERYONE from CEO down simply by choosing to spend his money somewhere else."
    --Sam Walton, founder of Wal-Mart

  28. #28

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    I have been looking at this thread and first I have to say forgive me as I don't want to offend anyone. I am not a purist about the models. I enjoy the game and the planes add a demention when playing. I can understand how those that are very knowledgable can see the things that are wrong. For me these are models that I use to play a game that I enjoy and have the opportunity to meet many people here and others in person. I do understand how people can pick out mistakes in the models. An example for me is a Sherman tank at a show that has a gun on it I have never seen on a Sherman. For me the thing that matters is why they give a release date and then move it back. IE the BoB was to be released this month but now moved to March. I think this has happend a few times before. I have said this before that ARES has to many IRONS IN THE FIRE. Too many things going on at one time.

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    Bob, I would venture that the problem there is Ares wanting to go for both big-company catalog and output, and small-company "artisan cred" and "craftsmanship." Unfortunately, even if they're trying to "balance" in the middle they need to bring in more personnel and more QC to manage the portfolio they already have.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  30. #30

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    I have to agree with you. You have a game/product that is very popular. I think you should put an effort into that product and appreciate the followers you have for that game.

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    I guess I'll pile on a bit, but from a different direction:

    My biggest gripe with WoG is how difficult it can be to get the actual models and accessories needed to get going with the system. Newcomers are often faced with the prospect of paying very steep collector's prices on the secondary market in order to get even a single copy of a desired model. Something as mundane as spare altitude pegs will go out of stock for literal years. Even the duel packs can be hard to come by.

    To me, the health of this game system rests far more on supply chain decisions like those, than on whether or not the spacing of the Tripehound's upper wing is off. And I want to emphasize that I approach this as a game system first, and hobby/model collection venue second. A big part of a game system's value comes from being able to find opponents - I mean, solo rules are great, but at the core, WoG is meant to be a multiplayer system. If new players have trouble getting the models they want, they are quite likely to simply give up and move on... to something like X-Wing, where the thought that an essential, should-be-taken-for-granted model / game piece should be out of print for years would be unconscionable (seen an S.E.5a lately?)

    Maybe Ares can partner back up with Fantasy Flight (now Asmodee I guess?) or some other big producer... I really feel that WoG has a lot to offer gamers who may be tired of the X-Wing / 40k / etc purchase treadmill. My hardcore gamer friends, who are quite discerning, are generally big fans of the WoG system based on the games I've given them, and I know more would be interested in buying in, if simply getting models wasn't such a headache. As it stands, I don't encourage them because I've got plenty to share, but I also don't want them to face the frustration.

    Anyways, my two bits. I'm glad as heck we've got what we've got, but there's got to be a way it can be improved further. I try to do my part in supporting the company by purchasing at least a few models (if not many more) from each release. I'm not a hater by any stretch. But I do want to see this get better, for the sake of the game's health and survival.

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    Steve, after some games FFG played when Nexus died I think that bridge is burned--they basically tried to strong-arm Andrea into selling Wings to them at a lowball price or "we'll fire up this other property we have as a mini line using your game mechanics and run you out of business anyway" if I recall right.

    To this day, I have not bought another FFG product since, even though I collect model Star Destroyers and the one for SW: Armada is among the best consumer offerings of those ships ever released.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  33. #33

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    Fair enough, and I'm not meaning to derail conversation from the important purpose of this thread in gathering feedback on the model quality in order to provide constructive criticism to Ares.

    I just feel that the current pace of releases, as well as the long gaps between reprints, is also very significant feedback for them to consider.

    It's neat that Ares is trying to expand their pool of offerings with additional games, but on the flipside, per the WoG Facebook group post about the system's 15th anniversary today (amazing milestone!), this system has sold over 700,000 units to date and I've got to assume it's one of their most lucrative lines. It's a shame it doesn't command more (most?) of their attention. It's hard for us, the passionate evangelists for the game, to help spread it, if the miniatures themselves are hard to come by for new players. The quasi-collectible approach to the wave releases, with multiple years between reprints, just completely sucks, to put it bluntly.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Thanks, Phillip. Memphis Belle's AWOL right cheek gun is a known issue, I personally gave them the B-17 engineering data and they "did it to make the two models different".

    Tony, I'm not "demanding protest," but trying for a Root Cause Analysis, and fiuring out what percentage of the problem is Home Office and what percentage is Overseas Subcontractor--all these issues are annoying, but in the big picture they're really symptoms. Some are bigger than others... but perhaps adding a better QC process at multiple stages of production would have prevented them all.


    i actually wasnt talking about the right cheek gun. i had forgotten about that one. i was talking about it only have 1 centrally mounted gun in the plexy nose when pics clearly show 2.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    ...I just feel that the current pace of releases, as well as the long gaps between reprints, is also very significant feedback for them to consider....
    But when you look at it they ain't done too bad for small outfit have they...
    2012 - RAP, Series 5, Gotha & Ca3 + WGS series 3 & a Bomber set.
    2013 - Series 1 reprint & duel sets, Series 6 & 3 game mats + WGS Series 4.
    2014 - Series 7, Gotha & Ca3 reprints, Series 2 reprints + WGS Series 4 & 5 and another Bomber set.
    2015 - Series 8
    2016 - Giants Kickstarter, Series 9 & 2 new playmats

    I think they do need to take a look at the reprint format, they don't have to follow the Nexus one do they ? I'm sure that could be improved on.
    Whatever they decide to print or reprint it's certain that they won't please everyone !

    "He is wise who watches"

  36. #36

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    And I myself had recommended if not a full "Something for Everyone" approach to each individual release, at least trying for a broad customer base. Similarly, on Sails I had suggested a philosophy of having one side of the card a more well-known or active ship, the other a not-so-much sister, and maintaining a mix of "star power" and "cannon fodder" so that ore releases could have at least one headliner to drive sales.

    I suspect a lot of my suggestions only see limited implementation because of wanting to keep control of THEIR company, and when you rely on any one person's input too much you in a way de-facto cede control to them. Thinking my next approach will be to ask "on things you buy as customers yourselves, how happy would YOU be with a company that... ?"
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  37. #37

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    I thought about this since I posted yesterday and although not a big deal I always wonder why there are no Booster Packs ? I think there would be many possiabilities with boosters. It would be something for people that maybe don't want to buy the minis right away but want to play the game. Also it would give cards for planes that people use because ARES doesn't have the mini out yet. An example is the Revolution In The Sky booster which contains the I-16. Look at the 1/144 section to see the people that play in that scale. I know many folks in here have SHAPEWAYS and AIM models (1/200) they use to augment their ARES minis. Others use 1/144 planes in their games because there are no ARES models for the time period. Booster Pack would also promote future ARES mini releases.

  38. #38

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    Bob, boosters would be considered "restarting the card game" and as far as they're concerned Wings Cards is deader than a politician's soul. I've even TRIED to get them to do just one limited Kickstarter release each of WWI and WWII "Definitive Edition" box sets, with all the errata, corrections and added planes from WGF and WGS added along with the unreleased boosters and boxes that died with Nexus, and still No Joy--so far they've decided that not only are the minis Driving The Bus but they're the only occupants of it.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    [...] so far they've decided that not only are the minis Driving The Bus but they're the only occupants of it.
    I might not disagree with them. I ignored the game until the Giants Kickstarter. I loved the minis and would not have played if were only with the cards.

    I too can easily see the difference in quality from the Ares and Nexus lines. Too bad, some of the guns from the Nexus figures and so distinctly better. I would also have two requests. First that their stock level be kept better. To be sure it does seem to be better than before with some of the dual packs and Rules and Accessories being available. But having existing waves (not meaning reprints from Nexus) not be available hurts the game. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons like only one or two planes in a series sells well. So I don't have a solution but there is a lot that has been out of stock for very long.

    Secondly, and this is just me I suppose. Since this is now a miniatures game and not a card game, can you possibly convince them to provide the manual from the Rules and Accessories in PDF form. As much of the rules in a single place available in electronic form just makes sense. This wouldn't make sense if they were just a card game. But if not I would think it should be available; we still need the tokens, rulers, damage decks, etc. I hate to compare this to X-Wing or something else similar, but having the rules doesn't seem to have impacted their sales of miniatures. For Ares it may actually help, if the figures and available.

    Just my thoughts

  40. #40

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    '''
    Last edited by Sagrilarus; 02-08-2017 at 13:52.

  41. #41

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    John, I also have a long history with them that anything they tell me does NOT get shared with you all UNLESS and UNTIL they specifically and positively give me a green light. My concern is maintaining THEIR reputation, and if it means taking a hit for trying to do right by them and this community... well, consider that one of the hazards of my first job ever (Executive Protection, against a specific stalker threat) was knowing that it meant almost-certain death if I was called upon to do what I was trained for, even though I would take the aggressor down with me.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  42. #42

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    Latest draft:

    Rob, there's a problem--or possibly several intertwined ones--we need to discuss. Please understand up-front that this is not meant to be a dogpile or gripe-fest, but rather to analyze the performance of past Wings and Sails releases trying to understand why one product in a release can be exquisite and the next "OMGWTF?!" If I seem harsh, please bear in mind that you brought me into the fold to "call it as I see it," and community liaison is as much representing them to you as you to them.

    I'm not sure of the timeline on these so some entries may be out of historical sequence--bear in mind, while some people outside see these as individual complaints to me they are only data-points in looking for and identifying a problem. I've been hesitant to bring these up because I wanted to have suggestions on how to fix them at the time I called "problem," but if I'm right about what I think I'm seeing the point-of-failure will require corrections that are outside my wheelhouse. One or two slipping through every now and again is inevitable; but when it comes to an entire SKU or sculpt every release that indicates a pattern in need of corrective action.

    --WGF Series 6 Sopwith Triplane wing spacing - not to beat a dead horse, but this seems to be where the pattern of otherwise-excellent models with head-scratching "Wait-WHUT?!" major mistakes started.
    --WGS Beaufighter Mk. VI tailgroup on Mk. I/II aircraft - a simple one, but still a headscratcher. We know you can tool detail-variations on a sculpt, so why not both Mk I/II flat and Mk VI dihedral tailplanes to suit the models? All it would have taken was different mounting tabs, less work than even the 1- and 2-seat variations on the Sopwith 1-1/2 Strutter.
    --WGS Bf109K incorrect wings and tailgroup, missing external stores and gaping under-wing holes - glaringly obvious. We know you can do better, we've SEEN it on the market, how did this one happen? While I bought yours for collection completeness, my miniatures will probably never leave their boxes and instead see their bases and cards used with third-party models for play.
    --SGN Wave 2 first-run packaging - No more need be said here.
    --SGN Wave 2 108 and 201 gunport-layout major issues - Head scratcher. Neither model's gunport arrangement is correct for anything ever built, which is a personal burr under my saddle since *I* sent you links to the original draughts and even some mid-life rebuilds. As with the Bf109K, as soon as I find more accurate hulls in the same scale the "official" miniatures will be permanently replaced and retired to storage in their original boxes.
    --SGN Wave 3 109 and 110 backward spritsails - Either your CAD modeler "billowed" the spritsail the wrong direction, or somebody in the factory edited your 3d model before tooling it.
    --SGN Wave 3 110 gun projection - Design level, guns only project from their ports at extreme ends.
    SGNWave 3 wrong-scale miniatures - at least SGN111 and 112 both measure out as 1/1200, more closely matching the size of the Langton 1/1200 Meregildos on SGN101 than SGN108/201 which it should be at least the same size as for the "short" version of the Meregildos design (the long should probably be closer to Ocean). Not to mention the apparent cutting-corners by shrinking the mini to re-use SGN104 masts rather than doing it right... Similarly SGN112, which appears to also be downscaled to 1/1200 to maintain proportion relative to SGN111, is closer to the size of pewter 1/1200 offerings rather than somewhere between the sizes of SGN102 and SGN104 as it should be.

    I've penciled out some thoughts on dealing with some of these for future re-runs, but for now the most important business is identifying the source of the problem and "stemming the bleeding" for future releases. As part of that triage, for Sails Wave 4 I suggest that when the 3d models are ready to go to pre-production, it might be prudent to have David, Jose Manuel and myself review and sign-off on the model designs and suggest any final revisions as required BEFORE the CAD models are transferred to the toolmaker to start cutting metal, and then to send us photos including rulers for scale reference of the pre-production samples for review before committing to production for release. I will note that anything more than a millimeter under Lower Deck lengths of 49mm (British 64), 46mm (Bonhomme Richard), 44mm (Mahonesa) and 59mm (Tonnant) would indicate to me another under-scaled miniature, and after all that the community did on this wave a Botch... well, I know after busting my own butt making it happen *I'd* take dropping the ball rather personally since this was "my baby," my big chance to mae a difference in this line. Think of this situation as a little like an airport where flights are being canceled: The passengers who you already canceled on are already pissed, so you focus on trying to get the NEXT flight out and avoid *more* Angry Mob in your face, then you come back and deal with the "Damage Is Already Done" problems as you can in between trying to push the next flights out.

    An observation from a friend whose company uses Chinese manufacturing contractors similar to yours: "The quality issues in regard to aircraft, which I am more aware of, well there is definitely a drop off in regard to fineness of gross sculpt and detail over the last couple of series releases, and a greater drop in overall finish. This could easily be due to profit maximisation in China, Ares are not getting whet they think they are paying for. My work involves checking and testing equipment increasingly sourced from chinese suppliers; the first shipments are to spec, the next 99%, then 98% and so it goes.Years ago, I worked for a small pottery manufacturer in the UK. One customer was a very large chain. If they found a single fault in one piece out of a shipment of 1000 pieces, we got the lot back and no money. Made our QC department, and all our potters and glazers VERY concientious. (1000 pieces could be more than a week's production) What they really need to do is start making sure QC is of increased importance with their suppliers, with sufficient penalty to make them sit up and take notice. When I worked in the pottery, the customer picked up the goods, but if they were returned as substandard, my employer had to pay the return frieght AND the original delivery costs. Overland in the UK is one thing, intercontinental by sea is going to sting. Not much use with existing contracts, but if their current supplier is proved to be in breach, new contract negotiations may be in order. They may also be subcontracting some of the work out without Ares knowledge, another common practice I believe; QC always suffers badly in such circumstances."

    Supply Chain is another issue I'm seeing mentioned with concerning consistency; it's hard for a new person to come in when they only have brief opportunities to get the "icons" of their game. This one I do have a proposal to address: a small re-run of WGF101-104 every year, and for WGF once you have both BoB and Midway releases alternate between similar releases of Early Spit/Bf109E/Wildcat/Zero and P-51/Ki-84/Late Spit/Fw190, staggering them every other year. If we're doing more regular runs, I would suggest only rotating out the single weakest seller rather than only keeping the top seller.

    We already have some deeply dissatisfied people out there saying things like:
    "Not to put too fine a point on it: I do not believe the current management are competent to run this operation; while the Chinese are to be trusted about as far as they can be collectively thrown. I do believe it is long-past time for someone Over Here -- WHERE THE PREDOMINANT MARKET IS -- to take control; or, failing that, allow the game to pass quietly, and be replaced with something else."
    and
    [omitted from public view at commenter request]
    And my concern is that while the rest of the community is well short of those two individuals, each point in the pattern of Quality Control misfires whether at the design, tooling or production stage pushes more people in their direction. I remember a problem Wizards of the Coast once had where their Chinese supplier (and remember, this is "thousand-pound gorilla" Hasbro!) rather than tool both the Bf109 and Spitfire the contract required only tooled the Bf109 and put British markings on it, a matter that when you say "Messerschpitt" in the Ais & Allies community still makes blood boil over a decade later and with the game long dead; and similarly to your Wave 3 scale problems, they had a War at Sea release where the factory tooled one ship under-size and designer Richard Baker scrapped that ship for that release and demanded they do it again and do it right in the next--and I really do have nightmares about something similar happening in these lines.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  43. #43

  44. #44

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    *Cough* Incorrect guns on the 109K *Cough*

  45. #45

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    OK..been gone a while from the site but agree with many points.

    My take on the matter...(like anyone cares...

    Considering they are selling Historical versions of certain aircraft (aces and all) the NEED to get them correct, this is not an option!
    Due to their price point accuracy is reasonably expected on their models.

    Still see the old argument concering the cards cropping up again. I went down that road when I first got started last year and just E-bayed one of every card set, every box set but the big planes, and even snagged a balloon box. The new Streamlined "sell em the basics and make em pay through the nose" for models approach sort of annoyed me. Still have not gone the shapeways route but have built up enough of a stock of maneuver cards that is is not a major stretch.

    But back on topic, if they are gonna make us wait literly years for a new release and charge top doller they OWE us to at least get them correct. After all this game is hanging in there by it's fingernails and has no room to slack off.

    Just 2 cents form an old wargamer.

  46. #46

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    So here's what finally went out:
    Rob, just dropping a line to ask how things are going with the Postmortem on why Wave 3 came out under-scale.

    Also, I have a thought before Wave 4 gets approved for production to prevent this from happening again: On Mahonesa, Ardent and Tonnant I'll check the waterline lengths of the Greenwich draughts (if I can find one for Mahonesa again), and I'd propose you take similar measure from the Boudriot drawings of BHR, and then we set targets of not more than 1-2mm above or below the calculated waterline lengths from those measurements for the CAD model and miniature. Also, in light of the gunports on Wave 2 First Rates and Victory, I would suggest that before the models are committed to production it might be prudent to either check them against the drawings and make sure all the ports are where they ought to be and none are missing, or send David and myself images of the CAD models for us to do an Accuracy Pass.

    Perhaps some of my word choice is not as artful as I'd like it to be, but a lot of us in the community have been noticing a pattern of glitches that raise troubling questions--things that one would expect a simple comparison of the digital model to the source drawings to make noticeable; a lot of the customer base are knowledgeable enough, and your price-point at a level, that when someone buys for example a Bf109K model they expect to and should find a Bf109K in the box with correct -K wingtips and tailgroup, not basically an -E with -K underwing stores and markings.

    It's a hard thing having to say this to people I consider not just colleagues but friends, and I don't mean to be a jerk about it or tell you how to run your shop--but I hope you agree that "community liaison" roles are a two-way street, and just as it requires representing you to the community it also requires representing the community to you. I WANT to see you guys succeed--I mean, I've made no secret of the fact that I wouldn't mind joining the company staff whether full- or part-time, right?--but success also depends on customer confidence in you and your product, and between this and the Big Two Known Issues of meeting delivery estimates and maintaining availability of core product I'm getting the feeling that there is some slipping in that confidence. (To be honest, I haven't bought my set on Wave 3 just yet; I may end up only buying one set for collection completeness rather than my usual two and looking for a source of proper 1/1000 substitutes to plop onto the SGN109-112 bases for display and gaming.)

    On a more positive note, if somebody on your staff speaks Spanish I think I've found THE ideal person to consult on the Armada if he's willing: his name is Miguel Godoy, and he's the master modelmaker for the Spanish Museo Naval in Madrid. If *anyone* can tell you what a given set of blueprints can also pass for he's your guy. His personal website is at www.miguelgodoy.es .
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)



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