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Thread: Me109K Aircraft Card Damage

  1. #1

    Default Me109K Aircraft Card Damage

    Hello,
    I'm new to WOG WW2 - Dawn of War, but an old player to the WW1 WOW/WOG series of games. I have only replyed to other's posts, and this will be my first one.

    A friend introduced me to the WW2 game, and he and I played a basic scenario with no altitude rules between an Me109K and a P51D Mustang. That game created some confusions as to the armament power of the Me109K. I am confused as to the veracity of the Me109K armament as shown on the airplane card that came out of the box.

    What I mean is, is the card accurate as is with a D deck damage and two C damages at close range and 2 C's at long range? Shouldn't the Me109K which was armed historically with 1 30mm cannon (often changed back to a 20mm due to unreliability of the Mk108 30mm and slow speed of the shell and lack of accuracy at long ranges vs the fast firing and accurate long range and reliable Mg151 20mm cannon) and two 13 mm Mg131 Machine guns (these are very similar in power and performance to the american 50cal MG's) only have a D damage deck and a B damage deck at close range and a C and an A at long range?

    Every German fighter airplane cards that I have been able to analyze for the WOW/WOG seems to indicate that the C damage deck is to be used for 20mm type cannons at short range and B damage should be used for dual 50cal sized mg weapons at short range. Given that the Me109K may have carried a 30mm cannon that would use a single D deck, what's the catch for the other 2 C damage at short range then? Its not like its carrying two 20mm Cannons in the wings, it only has 2 13mm Mgs in the nose.

    Hoping someone can point me to an armament conversion chart used by the Ares team designers for their WW2 product planes to alleviate confusion here.

    Thanks,
    Nate

  2. #2

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    Ares agrees with your info: WW2 Wings of Glory Airplane Packs Preview – Messerschmitt Bf.109 K

    However, it looks like they have added in the optional 20mm cannons on the base as standard: WW2 Wings of Glory – Airplane Packs: WGS112 – Messerschmitt Bf.109 K

    I don't have anything for planes later than 1940, so perhaps not the person to jump into this discussion.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    This is odd. I have an email saying that Lucas [Lord_Ninja] has commented here, but I can't see it.

    Anyway, he stated that some Bf-109s used 18 mm cannons. Not sure exactly what these were, but I looking that up and found that some 109s had been upgunned with MG 151 (MG 151/15) 15 mm aircraft-mounted autocannon (perhaps not upgunned, but the E-2/3 versions had this in the engine position, but most were removed due to problems), or perhaps the MG 131 13 mm machine gun (all after the G5/6 version), in place of the 7.92 mm MGs in the engine cowling? Could this be what is reflected in the stats?

    Hmmm... The 109 E version had 20mm MG/FF cannons in wing mounts, but later versions did not. Later versions used under-wing pods that reduced maneuverability. I'm not sure that later versions couldn't have had internal wing guns, but it appears that didn't happen. So, where is the extra fire power coming from, if not from the "optional" wing pods?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 12-29-2016 at 10:13.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  4. #4

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    Yeah, I deleted it when I realized that the cannons in question being debated weren't 18mm (my faulty sleep deprived memory) but rather 15mm (which still brings up a different debate all together) but didn't have time to rewrite the post from the different perspective. I still think that 15mm being rounded up is a bit extreme and most source material I have read states the K-4 being armed with 13mm MG 131s and not the 15mm MG 151/15. Which also brings up that Both variants of the MG 151 (the /15 and the /20) were limited to Motorkanone use in the 109 series. And that the MG 151/15 was also phased out from this roll in favor of the MG151/20 from a perceived increase of damage from the latter variant (though the MG 151/15 would go on to be used in other arenas of air combat).

    But granted, I have heard about the prototype K series having the MG 151/15 mounted in the cowling or even modifications being done to K series to have them but I would like to point out the size differences between the two weapons and how this could still be unlikely.

    MG 131 Length- 1,17 meters/ 3 ft 10 in. Weight- 16,6 kg/ 37 lbs
    MG 151/15 Length 1,91 meters/ 6 ft 3 in (this is actually longer than the /20 variant of 1,76 meters/ 5 ft 9 in) Weight- 38,1 kg/ 84 lbs

    If the 109K was equipped with two standard MG 151/15 (without ammunition) we are looking at 42,6 kg/ 94lbs of extra weight in the nose and weapons space (not necessarily the whole nose) needing to be lengthened by ,76 meters/ 2 ft 5 in.

    If anything, I can't find any original sources (of course, they may have gone up in flames in a bombing run) that have the K-4 being armed with anything other than the MG 131 during it's standardized production.

  5. #5

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    Lucas and Mike,
    thanks for your replies. I've done a bit of research myself and re-read some of my old books and now I'm sure that the printed cards showing the damage decks are not correct. At most what they are showing is the two under wing mounted 20 mm cannon pods that seemed to have been installed at the factory for all K4's delivered "Prien and Rodeike 1995 p.174". This encumbrance made the Me109 K4 less maneuverable than the the Me109 G10 when left on "Caldwell 1991 p292". That book quotes Uffz. Georg Genth as stating that his preferred mount was the Me 109 G10 as a dog-fighter instead of the Me109K4 because when he flew the Me 109k4 its maneuverability was sharply reduced due to the heavy bulky armament. So if we are to assume that the card is showing the 109K4 with the gun pods already on then the only thing missing is the 13mm Mg's for a B damage deck. Also since the extra gun pods would require one to remove some of the maneuver cards, this should also reduce the high rate of climb.
    I am glad I have both books and more to reference, but I wish somebody from Ares could chime in and confirm that the card is in fact in error with what its showing; the 30mm and two 20mm gun pods ( and therefore also missing the B damage of the two 13mm Mg's), though the gun pod card that one gets with the plane states that one would actually add 2 C damage to what is already showing on the card making the 109k more heavily armed than a 190 A8's (which should have 4 C and 1 B damage up close) with 1 D and FOUR C damage cards when firing up close.
    I agree with Lucas and would play it with a D deck and a B deck when firing up close ( unless carrying the 20mm gun pods), but would like confirmation of that from the actual manufacturers as an errata (similar to the wrongly printed maneuver card for the P47D that they did.) Pardon my ignorance, but is there such an errata anywhere on the WOG aerodrome or on the Ares site?

    Nate

  6. #6

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    I found a great reference: a technical manual for the Me109K4 at a site called the 109 lair. An image from that Luftwaffe manual reprinted describes the gun buttons on the control yoke - one for the MG131 and one for the Mk108. I found a mistaken reference to the fictitious use of MG151/15mm in my Ballantines press ME-109 Willy Messerscmitt's Peerless Fighter book, though no reference number used to find out where that came from, which I believe to be incorrect based on my findings mentioned above.
    Here are some pictures from the 109 Lair site and technical manuals (all in German unfortunately) and the site URL. http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm
    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7

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    Hello,
    more pics from the same site showing the cowling with engine exposed showing MG131's on top of the engine. I'm baffled how a confusion arose about the Me109K armaments, when its re-searchable fact that the Luftwaffe stopped using MG151/15's in its Me109's early on and the factories stopped producing them in favor of the Mg151/20 due to the more powerful explosive cartridge. better suited to take down the heavy bombers.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #8

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    My reference, for what it is worth: www.historyofwar.org - Messerschmitt Bf 109

    Not too much confusion on this site, either. The last production 109 with the 15mm motor cannon was the F-2, after that it was predominantly the 20mm (occasional versions tried a 30mm?)

    The K was armed with one 30mm Mk 108 cannon in the engine and two 13 mm MG 131 machine guns in the engine cowling. R-6: MG 151/20 mm cannon under each wing (field conversion kits, known as Rüstsatz)

    You need to check the "G" version for some of the upgrades, and field kits: www.historyofwar.org - Bf-109G

    All this agrees with you, Nate.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    Could you do an modification of the 109K-4 card Mike so that those of us who want to play with the MG-131s can?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    Could you do an modification of the 109K-4 card Mike so that those of us who want to play with the MG-131s can?
    Lucas, I'm not sure what you are asking? The official card, as printed (IMHO), is way over-rated, and seems to include the MG-131s as 20mm cannons, instead of 13mm heavy machine guns.

    If I were to do up a card with MG-131s, I would be replacing two C damages with one B at short range, and one C with an A at long range. This would, again IMHO, bring it in line with the armament ratings of other planes.

    Is that what you are asking?

    Note: The optional equipment card adding the 20mm wing pods would be in addition to the above, and also agrees with current weapons ratings. The optional weapon card should impose a steep rating to the sideslips, if there is a desire to reflect the maneuverability reduction for the increased weight on the wings.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  11. #11

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    Mike, I think that is what Lucas is asking, but thinking that some players like my friend would like to have an "official" card to play with rather than the original quite flawed one from Ares games.

  12. #12

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    Regardless of it's inaccuracy, I bought this plane solely because it had a D damage as I wanted more use of those chits.

  13. #13

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    Not sure how this will look next to the real card, but the D damage chit is still there:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Edit: Now with the name spelled correctly
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 07-08-2017 at 09:03.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #14

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Resident View Post
    Regardless of it's inaccuracy, I bought this plane solely because it had a D damage as I wanted more use of those chits.
    Mischa, no one is saying that the D damage is incorrect, quite the contrary, it belongs on a ME109k-4. What is incorrect is the two C damages that are supposed to represent 2 additional cannons placed also on the nose. Those were in fact mg131 heavy machine guns so
    Ilar to the American 50 cal. As such the should only be given a single B damage for both at short range and A damage at long. This is reflective of similar weapon damage found on P47, P51 etc...

  15. #15

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    Mike, thank you so much for the card. Yup this is how it should look. Now if someone want the additional two D damages to use the gun pods, then as the special card says, you would have a less maneuverable and less fast climbing a.c. but a great bomber kilker.

  16. #16

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    That's exactly what I meant. sorry for the unclear request. Looks good to me though!!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razor View Post
    Mischa, no one is saying that the D damage is incorrect, quite the contrary, it belongs on a ME109k-4. What is incorrect is the two C damages that are supposed to represent 2 additional cannons placed also on the nose. Those were in fact mg131 heavy machine guns so
    Ilar to the American 50 cal. As such the should only be given a single B damage for both at short range and A damage at long. This is reflective of similar weapon damage found on P47, P51 etc...
    Good point! I will print the card so my son stops killing me so quickly!



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