Escape with Dignity

[trumpetman52]

I have a question for anyone that might wish to respond. I've noticed that WOW is very much a "fight to the finish" game. I feel that there are times that escaping the conflict with dignity would be advised. I feel this system penalizes you if you have a shot up plane and know that you cannot stay in battle and take additional damage, but try to escape. This happened in real life. Another thought is if you find yourself in a one on one battle with a superior enemy aircraft. Let's face it there were times that the damaged pilots simply left the battle. Granted, not all of them could get away because they were persued by the enemy, but at least they tried.

Has any one toyed with this idea???

I'm open to hear your thoughts..

trumpetman52

[Polluxx66]

Hi there,

Yes I do agree with you. We were starting to get frustrated with that ourselves especially in the Dawn of War Rule Settings.

What we did to alleviate the problem is started to track our performances. Every mission you flew and every kill you obtained. For every Five kills we would randomly assign one of the ace abilities to that pilot. Catch was if he in turn got shot down all abilities were reset.

Gave you an incentive to save your skin and run for a table edge when damage got to great.

I just created a simple spreadsheet with all of my models while playing I just keep some scratch paper handy and update the spreadsheet when I am next at the computer

[csadn]

I feel that there are times that escaping the conflict with dignity would be advised.

Not quite the case, at least not when The SO and The Me play -- when one of us gets down to ~25% of starting hits, that person will tend to De-Ass The Area With The Quickness.

Most-recent game had this: I had a Gotha G.V; she had a SPAD and Nieuport; we each had two B-deck guns and 27 HP. The game ended inconclusively -- I had all but destroyed the SPAD, and put a couple of holes in the 'port; but she'd killed both of my gunners and made some nice holes of her own; in the end, I got out of there while the getting was good.

[The Cowman]

I have a question for anyone that might wish to respond. I've noticed that WOW is very much a "fight to the finish" game. I feel that there are times that escaping the conflict with dignity would be advised. I feel this system penalizes you if you have a shot up plane and know that you cannot stay in battle and take additional damage, but try to escape. This happened in real life. Another thought is if you find yourself in a one on one battle with a superior enemy aircraft. Let's face it there were times that the damaged pilots simply left the battle. Granted, not all of them could get away because they were persued by the enemy, but at least they tried.

Has any one toyed with this idea???

I'm open to hear your thoughts..

trumpetman52

I think retreating to fight another day is a completely valid tactic. Were I to design a campaign point system for WoW and had a regular group playing I would most definitely assign points for surviving a mission or engagement. Points for a Kill would of course be higher... or perhaps points would be taken away for being shot down.... perhaps limited numbers of certain aircraft could be available for each side... once they are gone they are gone... again a penalty for not surviving... Dying in the act of destroying your enemy may seem noble... but in the end is wasteful if it could have been avoided.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

In our games it is totally up to the individual to decide when he has had enough. If he leaves by the rear table edge, he is home safe. by the side edges, down in no mans land and has to make it back or not. The enemy edge captured and made a P.o.W. Simples !
Rob.

[Oberst Hajj]

In one off games, my group tends fight to the death. In our campaigns, there are several good reasons for heading home early. Download the Knights of the Air campaign rules for to see the points system and other pluses to staying alive.

[Steve]

Some game systems encourage escaping when a pilot runs out of ammo. Using the alternative ammo rules can also help push people to leave the battle rather than fight to the last. Ammo rules are even more interesting when you add deflection as some players will not necessarily take every shot. That being said, I've been know to bluff and stay even without ammo, at least for awhile, to help other pilots get shots. Then again, sometimes I may not be bluffing and may just be lining up a really good shot to make the best use of my limited ammo.

[von Klauser]

I had the same idea about what actual pilots would do in these situations. So the last time I played, I was determined to disengage when I took enough damage. But right when I got to the point of decision.....explosion card. Both games. I will have to try my plan again next time.

[Von Pupp]

[QUOTE=Polluxx66;35002]Hi there,

Yes I do agree with you. We were starting to get frustrated with that ourselves especially in the Dawn of War Rule Settings.

What we did to alleviate the problem is started to track our performances. Every mission you flew and every kill you obtained. For every Five kills we would randomly assign one of the ace abilities to that pilot. Catch was if he in turn got shot down all abilities were reset.

Gave you an incentive to save your skin and run for a table edge when damage got to great.

I agree with you.In the campaign that I play with my brother we use the same rule. It makes the play more realistic

[Bruce]

The "Boys" have said it for me - you don't have to fight to the last breath.
BUT allow me to explain what we do.

We never play "fight-to-the-death" as a default, sometimes it just happens that way. Rather, each of us (with two exceptions) maintains rosters of pilots and observers for both Allied and German sides and use them in rotation for all types of games whether at our normal (every 2 weeks) gaming sessions with 5-10 players or in PBeM games with friends on the otherside of the world or in ad hoc one-player-on-one-player games to wash down a pint or cuppa tea (herbal or decaf if after 6 p.m.)

Each of us maintains one "squadron's" worth of Allied and German Fighter pilots (a roster of 4 pilots for each side); each has a "dossier" with a full name (photos in due course), their training Sqn report (often quite amusing), a rolling history of sortie reports, and, of course, their updated individual statistics (kills, shot-downs, crashed-on-landings, wounds, etc, etc). We do the same for 2-seaters; 4 pilot/observer pairs for each side.

As pilots/observers are killed, we replace from a common-to-all training squadron pool.

Pilots/observers who survive 3 sorties get to pick one "Experience Skill"; pilots/observers who score 3 kills get to select one "ACE skill". After this they get their pick every 3rd sortie/kill.

Etc, etc, etc. AND, it's all on the honour system ... the only rule being that you must record/document each pilot's/observer's sorties with a short sortie report (often merely a one-liner, but just as often it is a 1 page group-game-report detailing the entire action for all players and all aircraft.

There are several nuances as well. For example, in each rookie pilot's/observer's training Squadron report there is a clear statement that this person is actually a cut-above the others in one aspect of flying/shooting/bombing/photo-taking/etc and therefore, in lieu of having to survive 3 sorties before claiming an "Experience Skill", this individual only has to survive 1 sortie before claiming the mentioned-in-training-report-skill but does not get a skill-of-his-choice after surviving the 3rd sortie. You really have to like the mentioned-in-the-training-report-skill to forego getting a skill-of-your-choice after 3 survived sorties.

Most of us are really into this create-dossiers aspect of the game, but a couple can't be bothered, and so they mostly play without regard for "saving the lives" of their aircrew. The exceptions for these players are when we play games in which surviving is worth game-victory points. They like to win too.

It all works for us; we play well together - the "dossierists" and the "fight-to-the-last-breathists". We're Canadian don't ya know.

[AlgyLacey]

The Dicta Boelke is all about not taking stupid risks and living to fight another day.

The Germans said there were two kinds of airmen - those who jump (no parachutes remember) and those who burn.

I guess there are two kinds of WoW player - those who see a little counter shaped like a plane and those whose minds eye looks down 10,000 feet to the tabletop from the plastic kite before them, whose pilots have names, mothers, mess mates, and who shrink from the imagined impact of cruel bullets, the searing pain of hungry flames and the shattering impact of a crash.



That's what it's all about gentlemen. Aviators deserve more respect than to be thrown away needlessly.

[Bruce]

Amen brother Lacey!

[Goering Ace]

For the longest time I would fight to the end, no matter what. In part I always believed I could still win, but mostly I just wanted to go down swinging. However, my son Hunter (Aero825), more often than not, would high tail it out of the fight if his health dropped too low. So now I tend to make a decision when I'm battered and wounded, as to run or fight. If he's going to run and deprive me of a kill, then I'm doing the same to him!!

Scott

[McKeever]

Escaping, with or without dignity, is almost a required tactic if you are involved in a campaign game where pilot experience rules are used (ala Dawn Patrol). As was mentioned above I used to fight to the death all the time, and in single dogfight games I still often do.

Sometimes though I turn tail if I'm too badly shot up if for no other reason a moral victory.

Best to all,

Mac

[Ed2]

In most campaign games when badly damaged, "excaping with dignity" is second only to excaping with your pilots life.

[rrodrick]

When I explain the game, even with beginners, I remind them that leaving the fight with a battered plane is certainly an honorable outcome. I briefly mention not wanting to go down behind enemy lines. I almost always steal the line I read in someone's post on this site that you don't want to lightly choose "soup for ever meal for the rest of the war." That said, we have few people leaving the battle. Explosions, jammed rudders, fire, and engine damage seem to dictate the final end as often as pilot's choice does.

[Jythier]

People in my campaign don't like to draw for deaths. So they tend to run away. But you have to run away before you're down to 1 HP, or you will probably not make it anyway... at that point, just try to get another kill unless you're in REALLY good position to just run. But yeah, definitely allow and like the fact that people are not sticking around to get shot down.

[JBParkland]

My group uses Keith's Knights of the Air campaign points system for pilots (thanks, Keith!), and it's rare to have a sortie when all of one side are shot down rather than escaping. It's only about 30% of the time that all of one side are shot down in a mission, so normally someone exits to save their pilot, avoid losing points for being shot down, and rob their opponent of a kill.

It really adds something to the game when you need to try to escape if it's going badly, especially when in a slower plane. I recently had to extricate a Pfalz DIII from 2 SE5s so spent some time working out how to escape when you can't climb and are much slower (answer = I didn't, but did manage to bag an SE5). I think the game loses something if always to the death.

[Charlie3]

...I've noticed that WOW is very much a "fight to the finish" game. I feel that there are times that escaping the conflict with dignity would be advised...Let's face it there were times that the damaged pilots simply left the battle...Has any one toyed with this idea???

Most of the other posts have already said it. In a quickly put together game where you are going to simply match up and have at it, nearly any player will simply fly until there is nothing left of the plane. It is a natural gamer montra..."I can pull this out and win yet!" In order to get people to play more realistically and be concerend for their imaginary pilots and equipment the players just need a reason to follow the old adage that "Discretion is the better part of Valor." So any of the pilot tracking, league or campaign systems you will find on this site should help. Have a look around and maybe combine some of the ideas to suit your group's style of play. Good luck and have fun!

[McKeever]

Most of the other posts have already said it. In a quickly put together game where you are going to simply match up and have at it, nearly any player will simply fly until there is nothing left of the plane. It is a natural gamer montra..."I can pull this out and win yet!" In order to get people to play more realistically and be concerend for their imaginary pilots and equipment the players just need a reason to follow the old adage that "Discretion is the better part of Valor." So any of the pilot tracking, league or campaign systems you will find on this site should help. Have a look around and maybe combine some of the ideas to suit your group's style of play. Good luck and have fun!

What he said!

[Aero825]

For the longest time I would fight to the end, no matter what. In part I always believed I could still win, but mostly I just wanted to go down swinging. However, my son Hunter (Aero825), more often than not, would high tail it out of the fight if his health dropped too low. So now I tend to make a decision when I'm battered and wounded, as to run or fight. If he's going to run and deprive me of a kill, then I'm doing the same to him!!

Scott

Yes I did retreat a lot. And I still do! My Dad gets pissed, but hey, at least I don't get my plane shot down.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Yes I did retreat a lot. And I still do! My Dad gets pissed, but hey, at least I don't get my plane shot down.

Hey Hunter, if you can get your enemy riled, you have already won half your battle, and maybe even set up the next encounter . Keep a cool head at all times. "Dicta Kyte".
Rob.

[Doug]

When the dammage mounts up I fly down to level Zeroand try to make it back to my lines if not I just land. Frustrates the hell out of other players as in house rule they dont get a kill only dammaged!

[franc3555]

I will try to Escape with Dignity for my next game !!

[phililphall]

I'm giving this a try tonight. Each player rolls one d6 for his mission.

1-Lone Wolf
2-Bombing
3-Lone Wolf
4-Recon
5-Dawn Patrol
6-Artillery spotting
(7) Balloon busting*
(8) Lone Wolf*

* for 8 sided die and those with a balloon or two
Lone Wolf- Select one fighter aircraft. One point for each a/c shot down. No points if you
don't exit the map on your side.
Bombing- Select two 2-seaters or one two seater and one fighter. One point per a/c shot
down and one point for completion of mission. You must start on your side of
table and overfly a marked point on the oppositions side of the table. No points
if the one two seater doesn't make it off the map. This must be the two seater
that overflew the target. Two points if you choose the two 2-seaters and both
accomplish the mission.


Recon- As bombing mission except you must overfly two points at least one firing ruler
apart. Only one 2-seater can be awarded points for completing the mission.

Artillery spotting. Select one 2-seater and one fighter. You must fly past the center of
table and fly a race track pattern parallel to the short side of the table.
Each leg must be 6 of your longest straights. You must complete
two circuits of the pattern One point for making it off your side of the
table.

Balloon busting. Place the balloon 3/4 of the way across the table from your side. One
point if you bust the balloon and make it off the table on your side.

Upon completion of your mission or loss of all a/c roll up a new mission and begin again.

I have the official mats so have the advantage of terrain printed on the map. For markers you can use the trench/aa gun markers and the rules for those if you so desire.

[phililphall]

I'm giving this a try tonight. Each player rolls one d6 for his mission.

1-Lone Wolf
2-Bombing
3-Lone Wolf
4-Recon
5-Dawn Patrol
6-Artillery spotting
(7) Balloon busting*
(8) Lone Wolf*

* for 8 sided die and those with a balloon or two
Lone Wolf- Select one fighter aircraft. One point for each a/c shot down. No points if you
don't exit the map on your side.
Bombing- Select two 2-seaters or one two seater and one fighter. One point per a/c shot
down and one point for completion of mission. You must start on your side of
table and overfly a marked point on the oppositions side of the table. No points
if the one two seater doesn't make it off the map. This must be the two seater
that overflew the target. Two points if you choose the two 2-seaters and both
accomplish the mission.


Recon- As bombing mission except you must overfly two points at least one firing ruler
apart. Only one 2-seater can be awarded points for completing the mission.

Artillery spotting. Select one 2-seater and one fighter. You must fly past the center of
table and fly a race track pattern parallel to the short side of the table.
Each leg must be 6 of your longest straights. You must complete
two circuits of the pattern One point for making it off your side of the
table.

Balloon busting. Place the balloon 3/4 of the way across the table from your side. One
point if you bust the balloon and make it off the table on your side.

Upon completion of your mission or loss of all a/c roll up a new mission and begin again.

I have the official mats so have the advantage of terrain printed on the map. For markers you can use the trench/aa gun markers and the rules for those if you so desire.

[phililphall]

OOPS left out dawn patrol. Select 2 fighters. One point for each enemy a/c shot down. Both planes must exit your side of the table to receive points.

[Diamondback]

Interesting question--one I was going to need ideas for if my cockamamie thought about incorporating WoW as a "Zoomed In" air-combat resolver for other games (with an intermediate "Aborted" Bug Out and Go Home condition between "Fighting" and "Dead") is to work...

[tonyc206]

I have campaign rules that indicate when a wounded pilot should withraw (or try to). I also try to 'bug out' when my plane gets within one damage card of destruction. This is because I treat all games as campaign games and try to stay alive to fight again

[Mac]

Know your plane.
Know your abilities.
Know your wingman/squadron mates.
Should they be of the type to bug out with 3-6 damage you maybe left out to dry. Should they be of the type to stalk and move in later you may be flying into danger alone.
But most important of all: Have Fun!

[MayorJim]

We fight to the death! However, we're looking at doing a "Knights of the Air" (maybe modified somewhat) campaign. In a campaign scenario(s) it makes sense to live to fight another day