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Thread: Why Were German WWII Aces So Successful

  1. #1

    Default Why Were German WWII Aces So Successful

    Here's an interesting article I found discussing Aces of WWII, surmising that the Germans had more encounters and that led to them being more successful as aces.

    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wor...wii-watch.html

  2. #2

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    Yeah -- there's also the distinct possibility that some "kills" were complete and utter Bunk. _A Higher Call_ covers this in a bit more detail, but the short version is: German pilots who came back with no kills were looked at askance by their superiors, as well as the Party "representatives" [ahem]; so if no action was seen, they would blow off ammo into the air, and claim at least one kill.

  3. #3

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    That makes sense. I suppose confirmation was difficult at the best of times.

  4. #4

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    Did the Germans not have gun cameras?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Yeah -- there's also the distinct possibility that some "kills" were complete and utter Bunk. _A Higher Call_ covers this in a bit more detail, but the short version is: German pilots who came back with no kills were looked at askance by their superiors, as well as the Party "representatives" [ahem]; so if no action was seen, they would blow off ammo into the air, and claim at least one kill.
    Oh Chris, there was over-claiming by all sides during the war, some malicious but most simply due to fog of war - pilot shoots at an aircraft, it dives down apparently out of control, pilot loses sight of it in cloud, 'must have gone down!' they report. As I recall even Gabby Gabreski was criticised for encouraging over-claiming.

    A sizeable number of Luftwaffe pilots scored considerable numbers of victories due to several factors including those below:
    - No tours of duty. Luftwaffe fighter pilots flew combat missions until - a) they got killed, b) they got wounded so badly they couldn't fly, c) they got promoted to command rank where they didn't have to fly (until they annoyed Goering in which case they were back in the cockpit) or d) the war ended. Example USAAF ace Robert S Johnson flew 89 combat missions in 1943-44 before he was rotated home, whereas Adolf Galland flew 425 sorties throughout the war (and that number was low compared to some Luftwaffe Experten!).
    - Training and equipment. In the early war period and on the Eastern Front the Luftwaffe pilots came up against opponents who were not as highly trained and / or used inferior tactical doctrine. Their opponents often flew inferior aircraft, or in some cases good aircraft just badly flown. In these circumstances German aces could rack up large scores quickly.
    - Target rich environment. German pilots were often outnumbered particularly in Russia, but given the limited training and experience of their opponents it just allowed them to score more freely. In Russia and North Africa airfields were often close to the action so where US pilots in Europe flew 1-2 missions a day a Luftwaffe pilot could fly 5-6 or more.
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 09-19-2016 at 14:15.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel View Post
    Did the Germans not have gun cameras?
    They did Reg. Check out https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+camera+action

  7. #7

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    All of the above is true.
    Overclaiming definitely was not a habit among Luftwaffe pilots but some were caught red handed. In "The Star of Africa", Colin D.Heaton and Anne M. Lewis recall a case of two such pilots who used to cross confirm their kills, deceiving their superior officer. However, I remember no other such case in the books/articles read to date.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    A sizeable number of Luftwaffe pilots scored considerable numbers of victories due to several factors including those below:
    I'm aware of all of those -- I'm just pointing out one which, to be polite, tends to be overlooked by the "Germany always produced better everything" crowd....

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    I'm aware of all of those -- I'm just pointing out one which, to be polite, tends to be overlooked by the "Germany always produced better everything" crowd....
    There will never be another war in the air like WW2, and never anything like the scale of aerial combat over of the Eastern Front. The big numbers scored by pilots like Hartmann, Rall, and the rest of the Jagdflieger Experten will never be equalled. And thank God for that, because to have such a war again is unthinkable.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    ... because to have such a war again is unthinkable.
    And operation Unthinkable was seriously considered in 1945. Allied attack on USSR, to push the Soviets back from Poland.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    And operation Unthinkable was seriously considered in 1945. Allied attack on USSR, to push the Soviets back from Poland.
    Played out that scenario a couple times, back-when -- Allied success would have involved three factors:

    1) Lots of heavy bombers (including B-29s);
    2) *LOTS* of napalm and airburst-explosive bombs, and;
    3) The willingness to exterminate every human being coming out of the Soviet Union -- whether wearing a uniform, or not.

    "I must've killed more men than Cecil B. DeMille -- it got pretty gritty...."

  12. #12

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    Being democracies the US and UK people would not have supported any moves to continue operations against the Soviet Union, particularly with the war against Japan still in full swing. Strikes and mutinies would have been likely. Likewise they would not have countenanced allowing the Wehrmacht to turn around and fight the Soviets with US/UK support.

    If the Western Allies had attacked the Soviets then it is highly likely they would not have attacked the Japanese forces in Manchuria, which means Japan would not have surrendered in August 1945. The Japanese High Command were unconcerned with the effects of the atomic bombs, but they were scared to death at the thought their beloved army would be destroyed in China by a Soviet juggernaut.

    If that were the case the invasion of home islands would have been needed to defeat Japan (Operation Olympic), which was estimated to cost up to a million Allied casualties. How many of us would not be here if our grandfathers had to keep fighting until 1946?

    Butterfly effect.
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 09-21-2016 at 17:29.

  13. #13

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Being democracies the US and UK people would not have supported any moves to continue operations against the Soviet Union, particularly with the war against Japan still in full swing. Strikes and mutinies would have been likely. Likewise they would not have countenanced allowing the Wehrmacht to turn around and fight the Soviets with US/UK support.

    If the Western Allies had attacked the Soviets then it is highly likely they would not have attacked the Japanese forces in Manchuria, which means Japan would not have surrendered in August 1945. The Japanese High Command were unconcerned with the effects of the atomic bombs, but they were scared to death at the thought their beloved army would be destroyed in China by a Soviet juggernaut.

    If that were the case the invasion of home islands would have been needed to defeat Japan (Operation Olympic), which was estimated to cost up to a million Allied casualties. How many of us would not be here if our grandfathers had to keep fighting until 1946?

    Butterfly effect.
    So true Carl!

  14. #14

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    Carl - your new avatar makes me think I am reading extra comments from flash

  15. #15

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    Yeah, me too !! Thought I'd been really busy yesterday
    Last edited by flash; 09-21-2016 at 23:48.

    "He is wise who watches"

  16. #16

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    I just noticed that, might have to change to another Marinefliegerkorps aircraft!

    Update - Done, now Albatros W.4 floatplane!

  17. #17

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    I just noticed that, might have to change to another Marinefliegerkorps aircraft!

    Update - Done, now Albatros W.4 floatplane!
    And very nice it is too!

  18. #18

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Yeah, me too !! Thought I'd been really busy yesterday
    I have always wondered why you have this German Aircraft avatar when you usually fly for the good guys (Read British! )

    Should be an interesting reason Dave.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Being democracies the US and UK people would not have supported any moves to continue operations against the Soviet Union, particularly with the war against Japan still in full swing. Strikes and mutinies would have been likely. Likewise they would not have countenanced allowing the Wehrmacht to turn around and fight the Soviets with US/UK support.
    This fails on several counts:

    1) Folks still remembered how the Soviets backstabbed the West by signing with Germany in '39; if one of the instances of Western and Soviet troops fighting each other had blossomed, it might be seen as "the Soviets backstabbing us again". Moreover: If FDR's efforts to suppress what Stalin was doing to his own people, much less the countries he was occupying, had been unsuccessful, FDR might not have died in office.

    2) There was at least one other option for dealing with Japan: Ring off the islands with the Navy (who wouldn't be needed in a fight with Russia, for obvious reasons), and starve the Japanese into submission (or extinction...).

    3) The only people who would be leading strikes and mutinies would be same people arrested en-masse when the West and the Soviets started fighting.

    4) No one mentioned German involvement -- see above re "backstabbing".

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    If the Western Allies had attacked the Soviets then it is highly likely they would not have attacked the Japanese forces in Manchuria, which means Japan would not have surrendered in August 1945. The Japanese High Command were unconcerned with the effects of the atomic bombs, but they were scared to death at the thought their beloved army would be destroyed in China by a Soviet juggernaut.

    If that were the case the invasion of home islands would have been needed to defeat Japan (Operation Olympic), which was estimated to cost up to a million Allied casualties. How many of us would not be here if our grandfathers had to keep fighting until 1946?

    Butterfly effect.
    See above -- despite all the verbal diarrhea spewed on the subject of a US invasion of Japan, it was never going to happen, for the very reason that the losses would have been prohibitive (to the Democrats staying in power, if nothing else). Instead: The Japanese islands are surrounded by the US Navy; anything which floats gets strafed, bombed, and/or torpedoed; and firebombing of cities and other locations continues until nothing remained standing. It would have taken longer, but would have been much less manpower-intensive (which has ever been the US combat credo: "Fight smarter, not harder").

  20. #20

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    You have to remember Chris that many of the unions in the Western Democracies were taking their orders from Moscow. Prior to 1941 many unions had refused to do 'war work' like load munitions on ships at the docks. It was only after the German invasion of Russia these strikes stopped. And if you arrest all the striking workers who will do the job? In the UK public were war weary, hence the fact Churchill was voted out and Clement Atlee voted in a British PM.

    I believe the biggest issue was the Western Allies were still in a fight with Japan and had no appetite to continue a two-front war with the Soviet Union. Look at the casualties the German Armed Forces had suffered fighting on the Eastern Front, for every soldier killed elsewhere two were lost fighting the Russians. Do you really believe the US public would have accepted these losses to defend Poland or any other Eastern European country in 1945?

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    You have to remember Chris that many of the unions in the Western Democracies were taking their orders from Moscow. Prior to 1941 many unions had refused to do 'war work' like load munitions on ships at the docks. It was only after the German invasion of Russia these strikes stopped. And if you arrest all the striking workers who will do the job? In the UK public were war weary, hence the fact Churchill was voted out and Clement Atlee voted in a British PM.
    That, I already knew -- I also know Hoover was practically s***ting himself waiting for a chance to go after the union leadership (read: Commies). A brace of pointed arrests, and a mild application of the bayonet, and the "useful idiots" fall into line. And since not everyone with the Labor class was a union man, there'd be someone left to do the scut-work (from the numbers, I figure maybe 10% would be hardcore enough to go to the internment camps rather than work; the rest... well, as soon as their stomachs start rumbling, they'll come around). Finally: If the Commies do act up, what better way for the Government to point out "whose side they are *really* on"....

    Britain, and indeed Europe as a whole, was not like the US -- they'd also had to deal with being bombed directly, and/or occupied, so weariness would have set in much earlier. That said: If the Soviets could be made out as the villains, who's to say Britain could not take the same course as the US might? (I don't know who'd be equivalent to J. Edgar Hoover in Britain.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    I believe the biggest issue was the Western Allies were still in a fight with Japan and had no appetite to continue a two-front war with the Soviet Union. Look at the casualties the German Armed Forces had suffered fighting on the Eastern Front, for every soldier killed elsewhere two were lost fighting the Russians. Do you really believe the US public would have accepted these losses to defend Poland or any other Eastern European country in 1945?
    It's possible they might have -- one joke told about US troops loving through Europe was "in every platoon, there's one guy who says 'hey -- my grandparents talked about living in this place'"; it actually got *worse* the farther east in Europe one traveled, as a lot of folks had bailed out of Eastern Europe the first time the Commies showed up (1919-23 or so). And again, there's the matter of how the conflict starts -- the most-natural assumption is a Soviet backstabbing, followed closely by "one of the Western-Soviet encounters go spectacularly south"; if it looks to the West like they've been the ones Wronged, that would do wonders for the willingness to fight.



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