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Thread: Airco Dh-1a.... where art thou?

  1. #1

    Default Airco Dh-1a.... where art thou?

    Thinking ahead a few weeks, I'd like to put together a game scenario about the airwar in Palestine circa 1916. British a/c would include the Airco Dh-1a because I like pushers. But I'm not finding anything related to the type in terms of WoG. No Shapeways miniature, no game cards. Nothing much on Wings of Linen. Not a complaint, just an observation.

    Dh-1a performance was similar to the BE2c, and in Palestine sometimes served as an escort for the BEE, so I've read. The two types might use the same manuever deck. Hmmmm....perhaps take the BEE game card substitute a picture of the Dh-1a? Same damage points, etc?

  2. #2

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    Another ungainly type by the look of it, Larry, maybe try it out with the XC deck, same speed but a slightly better turn rate..?

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Another ungainly type by the look of it, Larry, maybe try it out with the XC deck, same speed but a slightly better turn rate..?
    Thanks for the suggestion, Dave. XC deck it is!

  4. #4

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    Hmmm... Attempting to find info on the firing arc for this plane, I ran into a comparison of the DH.1A to the FE.2b, stating the DH.1a being better in performance.

    Source: Aeropedia.com.au - de Havilland (Airco) DH-1

    Note: The difference in performance wasn't quantified.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    The only recorded combat this plane was involved in was with No. 14 Squadron RAF in Palestine. No colors were recorded but speculation suggests PC 12 for upper surfaces to protect the doped linen from the intense sun.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also, if this plane was upgraded to the same engine as the FE.2b, it should have had significantly better performance than an XC deck. With the same engine as the FE.2b, and 1000lbs lighter Gross Weight, I can't see it being in the same speed band as a BE.2c.

    PS: The FE.2b uses the G deck.

    PPS: I can't find anything on the gun mount. It should have a broader arc than a fixed gun, but perhaps not as wide as the FE.2b? Or the same?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-06-2023 at 10:38.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  6. #6

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    Mike, I also read that the Airco Dh-1a was superior to the FE2b. According to Squadron/Signals Aircraft No. 171 (titled de Havilland DH2 in action,) the Dh-1, with its air cooled 70hp Renault engine was not the better plane, so the authorities committed to the FE2b.

    When Airco fitted the water cooled, 120hp Beardmore to their design, redesignating it Dh-1a, its performance significantly improved. Its top speed at sea level was now 90mph. Service ceiling 13,500 ft.

    So, maneuver deck G would be a better fit, yes?

    P.S., the mg mount was , according to Squadron/Signal, a telescoping post.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry R. View Post
    Mike, I also read that the Airco Dh-1a was superior to the FE2b. According to Squadron/Signals Aircraft No. 171 (titled de Havilland DH2 in action,) the Dh-1, with its air cooled 70hp Renault engine was not the better plane, so the authorities committed to the FE2b.

    When Airco fitted the water cooled, 120hp Beardmore to their design, redesignating it Dh-1a, its performance significantly improved. Its top speed at sea level was now 90mph. Service ceiling 13,500 ft.

    So, maneuver deck G would be a better fit, yes?

    P.S., the mg mount was , according to Squadron/Signal, a telescoping post.
    The FE.2b flew with the same engine, and 1000 lbs more weight. So, at least the G deck. I'm looking at the G* deck (without Immelman turn), as that was, if nothing else, doctrine for two-seater planes. Without better performance data or comparison, I'd stay there. The Unofficial Stats Committee would be able to calculate the best deck.

    If the DH.1a had a similar mounting to the FE.2b, then I'd go with the same firing arc, as well.

    PS: My best guess: Hits 8; Ceiling 9; Climb Rate ? (equal to FE.2b); Maneuver Deck G* (Doctrine, not actual performance); Damage B.
    Capable of carrying bombs, but historically used by No. 14 Sqn RFC as escorts for BE.2 Recce planes in the Palestine Theatre.

    PPS: Please note from USC criteria:
    141 – 160kph slow (E, G, P, R) Speed in cm 2.9
    The G deck is for planes anywhere in this band, and the FE.2b is at 147 kph (91 mph). So, the FE.2b is just into this band, and the lighter DH.1a could be at the top end (Could be a K deck at low end?). The change in engines went from 70-ish HP to 160 HP? More than double the power, but perhaps there is engine weight to factor into this, too.

    Wing Loading:
    DH.1a: 4.7 lb/sq ft (23 kg/m2)
    FE.2b: 6.15 lb/sq ft (30.0 kg/m2)

    So the DH.1a should be more maneuverable, with a lower stall speed.

    Found this, too.

    Engine Dry Weight:
    DH.1a: Renault 70 hp - 396 lb (180 kg)
    FE.2b: Beardmore 160 hp - 615 lb (279 kg)
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-06-2023 at 14:38.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #8

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    There is no hurry for this to be resolved. I can wait for the Unofficial Stats Committee to take notice.
    Last edited by Larry R.; 09-06-2023 at 19:21.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry R. View Post
    There is no hurry for this to be resolved. I can wait for the Unofficial Stats Committee to take notice.
    On it now. Sources of data are scarce.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    ... So the DH.1a should be more maneuverable, with a lower stall speed....
    In that case Larry could use the Y deck, it's a tiny fraction more manoeuvrable as it doesn't have that niggly steep sideslip in it & has already has no Immel card.
    For comparison:

    Deck Y (17) – Slow speed - 2.9cm - (arrow is 40% of the card)
    3 straight
    3 right turn
    3 left turn
    2 stall - steep
    2 right sideslip
    2 left sideslip
    1 climb
    1 dive

    Deck G* (17) – Slow speed - 2.9cm - (arrow is 40% of the card)
    3 straight
    3 right turn
    3 left turn
    2 stall - steep
    1 right sideslip
    1 left sideslip
    1 right sideslip - steep
    1 left sideslip - steep
    1 climb
    1 dive

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

  12. #12

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    Your attention to this is much appreciated, Zoe. In my humble opinion, the Dh1/1a is worthy. It was used operationally, albeit to a limited extent. Moreover, it is an attractive a/c (admittedly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder).

  13. #13

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    As a fan of flying the planes from the early WWI years, I am absolutely enjoying following this thread. I'm looking forward to the most accurately decided upon game stats, and hopefully another great card (or two) from Mike.

  14. #14

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    This is not IAW (In Accordance With) the USC, just my best guess (wish?):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The maneuver deck is the Ares R deck with the steep short sideslips, and the asterisk (*) is omitting the Immelman Turn (as stated above, the plane may have been able to do it, but RFC doctrine didn't allow two-seaters to do stunts.

    Flying Doctrine:
    The two seater versions of the Sopwith 1˝ Strutter were able to perform reversals but initially because of training and doctrine, crews did not attempt such acrobatic manoeuvres.
    If this rule is in use remove the Immelmann turn from the two-seater Strutter's manoeuvre deck.
    (s.9 - WGF209A/B Sopwith 11/2 Strutter)
    Source: FAQs & Points of Interest - Ace Skills & Optional Rules - Post #2

    I could make up a specific Equipment card for the DH.1a with the above on it?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  15. #15

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    Excellent work, Mike. Until a miniature becomes available in some form, your card can be used in game play. I play some games in card only mode....just as much fun, in my thinking.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    This is not IAW (In Accordance With) the USC, just my best guess (wish?):
    The maneuver deck is the Ares R deck with the steep short sideslips, and the asterisk (*) is omitting the Immelman Turn (as stated above, the plane may have been able to do it, but RFC doctrine didn't allow two-seaters to do stunts.
    The Ra deck is very/over manoeuvrable, you could consider the P deck, sans the Immelmann, if you want broad sideslips as an option. Make it a P* deck or apply Flying Doctrine. It'll be interesting to see what Zoe comes up with.

    Deck P (18) – Slow speed- 2.9cm - (arrow is 40% of the card)
    3 straight
    3 right turn
    3 left turn
    2 stall - steep
    1 Immelmann ! *
    1 right sideslip
    1 left sideslip
    1 broad right sideslip
    1 broad left sideslip
    1 climb
    1 dive

    Deck R (22) - ARES – Slow speed - 2.9cm - (arrow is 40% of the card)
    3 straight
    3 right turn
    3 left turn
    2 stall - steep
    1 Immelmann ! *
    3 right sideslip
    3 left sideslip
    1 broad right sideslip
    1 broad left sideslip
    1 climb
    1 dive

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #17

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    In case we end up with a maneuver deck with an Immelmann:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-11-2023 at 13:19.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  18. #18

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    Nice work, Mike. This optional rule is entirely appropriate in my mind.

  19. #19

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    If it's of any help the Janes Fighting Aircraft of WW1, shown by Zoe, lists the DH1 as having a 80hp Renault engine with a 'speed low down' of 78mph (125.5kph), landing speed 41mph (65.9kph), climb to 3,500ft in 11 1/4mins, total weight loaded 2,044lb. That puts it firmly in the 'sluggish' bracket of XB or XC
    The DH1a as having a 130hp Beardmore engine with a 'speed low down' of 89mph (143.5kph), landing speed 49mph (78.9kph), climb to 3,500ft in 6 3/4mins, total weight loaded 2,400lb.
    That puts it just into the 'slow' bracket of decks E, G, P, R, Y - G or Y would probably be the best fit.

    "He is wise who watches"



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