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Thread: HE 111 H3 gun question

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    Default HE 111 H3 gun question

    Hey folks, I'm finding the number 2 gun fire arc a little confusing on this one.
    It looks like it can fire all the way around, but the inverted triangle at the front is throwing me a little, can the top gunner actually fire forwards in the HE111H3? I can't tell if it is telling me it can fire forwards, or that I can't If it can, then can't if fire 360 degrees? That would make the triangle to the front pointless.

    Just can't quite work this one out.

  2. #2

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    Hi Stephen,

    This has been the subject of a previous discussion. I believe it was acknowledged that the dorsal gunner arc was an error actually reflecting the arc of the earlier model He-111E which saw service in the Spanish Civil War for which Nexus produced a card for the never released 'Rain of Destruction' boxed set. Below is a line drawing of the He-111E, I have a copy of the Nexus card on my PC somewhere, I will post it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #3

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    And here she is, the He-111E-1 in Spanish Civil War livery with the much wider dorsal gun arc due to the smaller canopy in front of the gunner's position.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It also has a wider ventral arc as that gunner had a 'dustbin' station (see line drawing in the post above).

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    Just trying to wrap my head around the rules and so forth with being very new, but if I'm right a bit of unshaded/not faded or discoloured terrain means a blind spot for a gun? There is a clear 'blind spot' on your pictured card to the front. It's pretty darned tiny on my H3 card and I didn't notice it before. It's mixed in with the front ventral and nose gun, so only leaves the smallest piece of the card 'unshaded'.
    It confused me because I'm pretty sure an HE-111 top gunner couldn't ever have fired directly forwards, but that triangular arc looks like a normal fire arc to me

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfish View Post
    Just trying to wrap my head around the rules and so forth with being very new, but if I'm right a bit of unshaded/not faded or discoloured terrain means a blind spot for a gun? There is a clear 'blind spot' on your pictured card to the front. It's pretty darned tiny on my H3 card and I didn't notice it before. It's mixed in with the front ventral and nose gun, so only leaves the smallest piece of the card 'unshaded'.
    It confused me because I'm pretty sure an HE-111 top gunner couldn't ever have fired directly forwards, but that triangular arc looks like a normal fire arc to me
    You are right Stephen. I use Karl-Heinz Regnat's book on the Heinkel He-111 as my principal reference and the dorsal gunner (B-Stand auf Deutsch) on the H series could fire 40 degrees either side of the axis facing aft and could elevate to 70 degrees so almost vertical.

    The previous thread were this was first discussed is below, check it out.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ht=heinkel+arc

  6. #6

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    I think gun arc #2 is all but the darkened slice to the immediate front.

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    Thanks. I'd expected it to not be allowed to fire that way, but it's a quite odd placement of the forward triangle, makes it look like it's a valid fire arc.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfish View Post
    Thanks. I'd expected it to not be allowed to fire that way, but it's a quite odd placement of the forward triangle, makes it look like it's a valid fire arc.
    Some of these multi arcs can be confusing - look for the red line in the angle with the guns number on it somewhere, 2's is nearly a full circle.

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfish View Post
    Thanks. I'd expected it to not be allowed to fire that way, but it's a quite odd placement of the forward triangle, makes it look like it's a valid fire arc.
    It is definitely an error Steve, but I don't think it bothers too many players. If you want to restrict it I would suggest between 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock. It is more than the 40 degrees either side of axis specified but Wings of Glory tends to add more angle to the firing arc to take into account small course corrections.

  10. #10

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    The art on this particular He-111 is badly done. The circle showing the arc is too small. It is mostly hidden by the plane.

  11. #11

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    Have a look at this thread Stephen - and this one contain some photos and stuff - they may help explain things. No guarantee of course !
    Last edited by flash; 07-22-2016 at 06:27.

    "He is wise who watches"

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    I wasn't actually questioning the reality of the fire arc, although it seems pretty unlikely It's just that the blind spot looked like an actual fire arc in itself.
    I'm considering using the top lines of the side gunner position in game, allowing me to fire using the rear of the wings as my limit.

    Now prepare to be amazed by my insane 'Paint' skills.




    where the arrow points #1 I didn't at first see that the area beneath was not faded, if the terrain in a fire arc is clearly visable it represents a blind spot for the weapon. The He 111 card is crowded and it's not obvious.

    Also at a glance it looks like the fire arc is showing me where I can shoot, rather than can't.

    So that was where my problems lay, I couldn't figure out if I could or couldn't shoot forwards.

    Now with hindsight I figured it out, but I agree the HE111 has a top gunner with an insane arc, while you could slide that canopy I can't imagine they would be able to fire anywhere but 180 degrees to the rear.

    So I'm considering using the top lines of the side gunners which I've marked in black as the cut off. Does it seem accurate enough to people?

  13. #13

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    If using altitude the top gunner has a much better firing arc as he should easily be able to fire above the wings. But if you want to keep it simple then your solution should work for you.

  14. #14

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    Stephen,
    Please see the below template I did up for a decoy He.111 I used for some Skype games.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The number two arc might be a bit clearer. The tail blind spot is checked against the model on the table, when shots are taken, not indicated here.
    [Updated with all dots, arcs and index/arrow. May not be as clear with the Ventral arcs, as without.]

    Two Things

    One: If you don't like the "larger than life" firing arc on the number two gun on this bomber, do you accept the awesomely huge arc on fighters? Just like the arc on fighters, it is taking into consideration the possibility that a shot might have been take during the movement, not just at the end. Otherwise, fighters would only be shooting directly to the front all the time. IMHO, anyway.

    Two: With the canopy fully open, and the gun mount having a swivel at the end of the frame, and plane maneuvering or yawing, would the firing position be able to hit targets it the arc indicated?

    The game doesn't always reflect exactly all the Real Life mechanics, but they do try to come close. So, I accept the arcs as given, mostly for the bombers, because they need the help.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 07-22-2016 at 12:39.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

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    The front blind spot is pretty obvious there, it's the way it is done on the model that threw me, it's quite confusing.
    I must admit it's fun to do bomb runs in this, especially if you are at altitude, I tend to overshoot or go wide more often than not

  16. #16

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    Just for argument's sake, I did up a few graphics.

    A line drawing of an H model He.111, with Dorsal canopy closed (as the Ares model appears)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is the "non-combat" position.

    As best I can determine, from images, drawings and other sources, the Dorsal canopy fully open, and the MG15, in the ring, swiveled to the extreme left.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Close-up of the mount and the position of the MG15
    Click image for larger version. 

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    What would the firing arc look like, with this amount of traverse? Something like this.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I actually like this arc, as it misses the prop arcs of the engines, too.

    Comments? Thoughts?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

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    It seems pretty precise to me.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfish View Post
    I wasn't actually questioning the reality of the fire arc, although it seems pretty unlikely It's just that the blind spot looked like an actual fire arc in itself.
    I'm considering using the top lines of the side gunner position in game, allowing me to fire using the rear of the wings as my limit.

    Now prepare to be amazed by my insane 'Paint' skills.




    where the arrow points #1 I didn't at first see that the area beneath was not faded, if the terrain in a fire arc is clearly visable it represents a blind spot for the weapon. The He 111 card is crowded and it's not obvious.

    Also at a glance it looks like the fire arc is showing me where I can shoot, rather than can't.

    So that was where my problems lay, I couldn't figure out if I could or couldn't shoot forwards.

    Now with hindsight I figured it out, but I agree the HE111 has a top gunner with an insane arc, while you could slide that canopy I can't imagine they would be able to fire anywhere but 180 degrees to the rear.

    So I'm considering using the top lines of the side gunners which I've marked in black as the cut off. Does it seem accurate enough to people?
    you know, itd be nice if on the reverse of the airplane management card they print a side view of the firing arcs for more clarity.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    you know, itd be nice if on the reverse of the airplane management card they print a side view of the firing arcs for more clarity.
    I agree. It would give us a better realization of the 3d of it all.

  20. #20

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    Mike, I like your arc for same level fire from the dorsal gun position. Makes more sense that they would avoid their own props.

  21. #21

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    Researching the firing arcs for the He.111, I ran across these images:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note: It took a while to track down where these came from, and they were from the November, 1942, issue of Aviation magazine, vol 41, no 11, pp 200-201. It appears they were drawn from descriptions of the plane from US Intelligence sources, and I would think, based on my graphics analysis, not entirely accurate.

    The drawings attempt 3D views, but are not very helpful, IMHO.

    I really like this one, though:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This shows some ventral ability with the Stuka, which would be helpful, if it is accurate.

    The entire article can be found here:
    Legends in Their Own Time.com/Fire Power Details of Nazi Planesl

    Source: Legends in Their Own Time.com -Resources - Magazine List
    Scroll down to individual magazines for links to their Tables of Contents

    Table of Contents for Aviation - November 1942
    Legends in Their Own Time - TOC - Aviation 1942

    These are all period publications and contain tidbits of information from the time period. One article gave a brief overview of the state of Canadian Aviation, and there are things like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Answer tomorrow?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 07-24-2016 at 09:52.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Researching the firing arcs for the He.111, I ran across these images:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	German_Av_4211_firepower_fig3_W.png 
Views:	122 
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ID:	202972
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	German_Av_4211_firepower_fig4_W.png 
Views:	122 
Size:	35.0 KB 
ID:	202973
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	German_Av_4211_firepower_fig3_W.png 
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Size:	25.2 KB 
ID:	202972

    Note: It took a while to track down where these came from, and they were from the November, 1942, issue of Aviation magazine, vol 41, no 11, pp 200-201. It appears they were drawn from descriptions of the plane from US Intelligence sources, and I would think, based on my graphics analysis, not entirely accurate.

    The drawings attempt 3D views, but are not very helpful, IMHO.

    I really like this one, though:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	German_Av_4211_firepower_fig8_W-Stuka.png 
Views:	123 
Size:	28.1 KB 
ID:	202974
    This shows some ventral ability with the Stuka, which would be helpful, if it is accurate.

    The entire article can be found here:
    Legends in Their Own Time.com/Fire Power Details of Nazi Planesl

    Source: Legends in Their Own Time.com -Resources - Magazine List
    Scroll down to individual magazines for links to their Tables of Contents

    Table of Contents for Aviation - November 1942
    Legends in Their Own Time - TOC - Aviation 1942

    These are all period publications and contain tidbits of information from the time period. One article gave a brief overview of the state of Canadian Aviation, and there are things like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AN_4212_SQ-3_p030_W.jpg 
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ID:	202975
    Answer tomorrow?
    Off the top of my head:
    MiG-3
    P-400
    P-40B
    He-112
    Hurricane II
    Spitfire I
    Mustang I
    Messerschmitt Bf-109F

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Just for argument's sake, I did up a few graphics....

    What would the firing arc look like, with this amount of traverse? Something like this.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I actually like this arc, as it misses the prop arcs of the engines, too.

    Comments? Thoughts?
    Think you nailed it there Mike, thanks for going to the trouble of drawing it all out.

    "He is wise who watches"

  24. #24

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    I'm more inclined to go with the USAAF diagram for the He.111 arc. Shooting over the wing looks like a bit of a stretch for the gunner.
    Oh, and I wouldn't get excited about the downward shooting for the STUKA; it would be like threading a needle.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    ...
    Shooting over the wing looks like a bit of a stretch for the gunner.
    Oh, and I wouldn't get excited about the downward shooting for the STUKA; it would be like threading a needle.
    Karl
    And shooting around the tail isn't? The gunners go through training to shoot from their positions, and learn to lead targets in traverse and elevation. This would include not shooting parts of their own plane. It may still have happened, but it was probably rare. I can see ball turrets with interlocks and cams that would prevent the turret from shooting when aimed in delicate places, but free-mounted guns would take training to use.

    I am reconsidering the above graphic of the dorsal mount, as there is a possibility to narrow the forward arc a bit. Stand-by.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  26. #26

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    It's quite fun to see my stupid question raise discussion
    I understand the need for game-play mechanics, I'm not sure how fun it would be to try firing in a straight line only, 1v1 battles last long enough with a 90 degree arc of fire.
    Got into the game quite quickly and intend to bolster my collection soon. Hopefully WW1 will see a revival of early aircraft, and I can't wait for the Battle of Britain to do the same for WWII.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfish View Post
    It's quite fun to see my stupid question raise discussion
    I understand the need for game-play mechanics, I'm not sure how fun it would be to try firing in a straight line only, 1v1 battles last long enough with a 90 degree arc of fire.
    Got into the game quite quickly and intend to bolster my collection soon. Hopefully WW1 will see a revival of early aircraft, and I can't wait for the Battle of Britain to do the same for WWII.
    It is not a stupid question Steve, far from it. We have seen errors on cards before. The editing process for any printed project needs to be stringent and identifying errors like the He-111 B-Stand firing arc or the P-47 side slip can help focus Ares' attention on these matters going forward.

  28. #28

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    Can't leave it alone. With the ring not fully turned, but the gun swiveled in the frame,

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Heinkel_He_111_Dorsal <acronym title=FA Swivel-2Crop.jpg  Views: 110  Size: 147.3 KB  ID: 203027" class="thumbnail" style="float:CONFIG" />

    ... you could get this arc!
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Heinkel_He_111_Dorsal <acronym title=FA Swivel-1aCropComp.jpg  Views: 110  Size: 97.9 KB  ID: 203028" class="thumbnail" style="float:CONFIG" />

    So, almost exactly the arc depicted on the original card, and possible with the geometry of the mounting. Not the most comfortable, nor possibly accurate, but doable. The gunner would have to avoid shooting off his own props, though.

    And this is not considering any maneuvering by the plane, nor fudging the arc for shots during the move of the plane during the phase. So, despite any misgivings of the accuracy of the card, I'm going to go with the arc as printed.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  29. #29

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    Pretty darn close, Carl!

    For the rest of us mere mortals...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Think you nailed it there Mike, thanks for going to the trouble of drawing it all out.
    Note that in that drawing the gunners canopy appears to have been slid back.
    How often that was done in practice though is open to question and with it in the forward position the arc would be more limited to that of a standard flexible mount.
    Eventually late war He-111`s got a powered turret which gave a more or less 360 degree arc.

    One question I do have about the card though, did the H-3 version have the rear remote gun (arc 5)?
    The H-6 did.
    Last edited by Rabbit 3; 09-06-2016 at 02:45.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit 3 View Post
    Note that in that drawing the gunners canopy appears to have been slid back.
    How often that was done in practice though is open to question and with it in the forward position the arc would be more limited to that of a standard flexible mount...
    Noted - that's the whole point though isn't it. The arc is there even if the Ares card is showing the canopy in the closed position.
    How often they did it in practice ? Who knows but would be a bit daft not to.... some did though ...



    "He is wise who watches"

  32. #32

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    Necro-threading? Not really.

    Check out this video on the "real" He.111 Dorsal B-Stand firing arc: www.youtube.com - He 111 Top Gunner B Stand

    If you thought the card was too broad of an arc, we were all wrong. It's much bigger, and even 360 degrees above, if not forward firing on the same level (not quite, but really close).

    PS: The sad thing is, the linked video was posted in 2016, three months after the above discussion.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  33. #33

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    I would say that video is pretty much conclusive evidence to support the arc of fire and even to extend it to include the forward firing capability above the horizontal.



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