Falklands War

[Gallo Rojo]

Cheers!
I'm thinking about developing a Falklands War mode of the game, using Armaments In Miniature LLC models
My aim is getting statistics for four planes types:

BA Harrier and Sea Harrier

Douglas A-4 Skyhawk
Dassault Mirage III
Dassault Super Etendart

I think getting 'speed rages' will be the easy part... but I don't have a very clear idea about what maneuvers each plane would be able to perform. I'm guessing Harriers are and A-4 are both very maneuverable, while Mirage would be fast but not very nimble -- somewhat like a SPAD XIII in WWI.

Additonally I need to develop a two or three cards maneuver for ground attack, especially from A-4 attacking ships -- my first intention is doing scenarios with one or two sections of A-4 attacking British frigates covered by a section of Harries.

Any thoughts?

[David Manley]

Don't forget that if you are trying to follow real world tactics you won't really have Sea Harriers and surface ships on the table at the same time. Air engagement s were deliberately condiuted at a distance from ships to reduce the chance of a "blue on blue".

That said, you can of course ignore such restrictions

[Gallo Rojo]

Thanks for the imput Dave!
I was thinking about A-4 having to engage surface units and then escape from Harriers later on

[David Manley]

I've run a vew Falklands naval campaigns in the past. For one of them we fought out the A2A using Air War C21, then the air to surface attacks using Modern GQ (and then a second round of A2A if the raid was hit again on the way out). Individual engagements thus made fun little mini campaigns, as they would using WoG

[Lord_Ninja]

Cheers!
I'm thinking about developing a Falklands War mode of the game, using Armaments In Miniature LLC models
My aim is getting statistics for four planes types:

BA Harrier and Sea Harrier

Douglas A-4 Skyhawk
Dassault Mirage III
Dassault Super Etendart



Any thoughts?

Sooooo, conflict between Harriers and Mirage IIIs only resulted in the loss of one Mirage III, the Mirage III didn't quite have the range to take part in the fighting and were primarily used on the mainland as defense against Vulcan strikes or as decoy flights (58 sorties flown in this role). The Harrier's main A2A opponent was the IAI Dagger (Israeli Air Industry Mirage V variant). In fact, of the 11 Daggers lost, 9 went down to Sea Harriers, while the Sea Harriers scored 21 A2A victories all around with no losses to enemy planes.

Buuuuut, in terms of the game, the Mirage III and the Dagger had roughly the same speed and maneuverability with the differences being upgraded avionics and weapons in the Dagger. So their non-weapon stats will probably be the same.

I'm looking that until the new fast decks are fleshed out (the 109K, P-51, Mk.IX, Ki-84, P-47) with a few more choices, I am going to completely ignore this group and just work with the fastest decks being the A,B,E,F,G,H. Soooooo looking at the comparative speeds and maneuverability, this is my rough reckoning that I was going to use for my Falklands

Mirage III/Dagger- C-Deck (Medium speed and decent agility)

Super Etendard- K-Deck Keep in mind that only a few sorties were flown and the only combat recorded was against ground/sea targets. Only four were in service for the whole conflict.

A-4 Skyhawk- J-Deck It did have decent maneuverability but the versions used in Top Gun and DACT training were lightened versions that would have been unusable in combat. Still should move slow with bombload.

Bae Sea Harrier- L-Deck with some restrictions. So my idea goes like this, the Harrier had the ability to VIFF. This could be a useful but last ditch maneuver to loss an opponent. I am thinking this is how it should work. You use the L-Deck except the 90 degree turns as normal. If you want to use the 90 degree turn you can but like the Immelmann it comes with restrictions. After the card is played, the Harrier goes straight to a stall (and slow speed) next turn. VIFF allowed sharp turns in flight but came at the high price of the Harrier losing most of it's forward speed.

[Gallo Rojo]

Sooooo, conflict between Harriers and Mirage IIIs only resulted in the loss of one Mirage III, the Mirage III didn't quite have the range to take part in the fighting and were primarily used on the mainland as defense against Vulcan strikes or as decoy flights (58 sorties flown in this role). The Harrier's main A2A opponent was the IAI Dagger (Israeli Air Industry Mirage V variant). In fact, of the 11 Daggers lost, 9 went down to Sea Harriers, while the Sea Harriers scored 21 A2A victories all around with no losses to enemy planes.

I'm not looking to re-creating actual scenarios and situations only; although I may do that as well

Question: as far as I know the only air-to-air combat of the war was on May 1st between a CAP of Mirage III and a CAP of Harrier
I don't know about any match between IAI vs Harriers. I mean: IAI were used as fighter-bombers attacking British surface units and some were shoot down by Harriers while playing that role... but I thought that no 'dog-fight' ever happened between AIA vs Harrier. Am I wrong?

I'm looking that until the new fast decks are fleshed out (the 109K, P-51, Mk.IX, Ki-84, P-47) with a few more choices, I am going to completely ignore this group and just work with the fastest decks being the A,B,E,F,G,H. Soooooo looking at the comparative speeds and maneuverability, this is my rough reckoning that I was going to use for my Falklands

Mirage III/Dagger- C-Deck (Medium speed and decent agility)

Super Etendard- K-Deck Keep in mind that only a few sorties were flown and the only combat recorded was against ground/sea targets. Only four were in service for the whole conflict.

A-4 Skyhawk- J-Deck It did have decent maneuverability but the versions used in Top Gun and DACT training were lightened versions that would have been unusable in combat. Still should move slow with bombload.

Bae Sea Harrier- L-Deck with some restrictions. So my idea goes like this, the Harrier had the ability to VIFF. This could be a useful but last ditch maneuver to loss an opponent. I am thinking this is how it should work. You use the L-Deck except the 90 degree turns as normal. If you want to use the 90 degree turn you can but like the Immelmann it comes with restrictions. After the card is played, the Harrier goes straight to a stall (and slow speed) next turn. VIFF allowed sharp turns in flight but came at the high price of the Harrier losing most of it's forward speed.

That's great Lucas!
thanks so much

I think a further (bigger) problem would be how to introduce AAM ...

[David Manley]

For short range IR guided AAMs how about this?

Shooter must be in target's rear arc (except AIM9L which can engage from any aspect).

Draw an A deck card at short range; a B again long range.

0 is a miss, 0 or 1 if target deploys flares

If a hit is scored draw 5 A cards and apply all damage

[David Manley]

Of course my use of decks reflects my WGF focus

I'm sure a suitable selection of WGS chips would serve the same purpose

[Gallo Rojo]

good one! thanks David

[Lord_Ninja]

I'm not looking to re-creating actual scenarios and situations only; although I may do that as well

Question: as far as I know the only air-to-air combat of the war was on May 1st between a CAP of Mirage III and a CAP of Harrier
I don't know about any match between IAI vs Harriers. I mean: IAI were used as fighter-bombers attacking British surface units and some were shoot down by Harriers while playing that role... but I thought that no 'dog-fight' ever happened between AIA vs Harrier. Am I wrong?




That's great Lucas!
thanks so much

I think a further (bigger) problem would be how to introduce AAM ...

So dogfights did happen between the Dagger and the Harrier early on, with no clear winner or loser, later on the Argentinian propaganda machine duped the FAA by accident by making them think that the HMS invincible had been put out of action, therefor no more Harriers. This caused the FAA to strike with everything that could carry bombs and this is where most of the A2A victories occurred for the Harrier. But as far as the game is concerned, do you want Dogfights or do you want a one-sided turkey shoot?

I would play the missiles like the "Aimed AA Fire" similar to how it's described in the rule book. I would have it move only one measuring stick a turn so the fighter being shot at still can attempt to maneuver away.
Example. A AiM-9 is given the range of two sticks. It should be on a card similar to a fighter card with a "firing arc". The firing arc is the Field of View, if a target with a straight line drawn to the middle/peg of the missile is NOT in this FoV than the missile losses target and is eliminated. Same goes for the plane firing the missile, a target must be a straight line within the firing arc.
An AiM-9 with a two stick range should take two turns to completely move and fire/explodes just like it would do as "Aimed AA" in the rule book.

[Black Bishop]

I’m not a big expert in the Air-warfare over the Falklands, so please correct me if you find any mistake

Prior to the May 1st skirmish mentioned above, Mirage III and Harriers had been playing cat&mause a couple of times. Mirage III had better performance at high altitude while Harriers performed better at lower altitude, and nobody wanted to take risks getting out of their comfort-zone and engaging the enemy on his own terms.
But on May 1st, Argentine RADAR in Falklands mistaken two Harriers flying close to each-other as only one Harrier, ordering Mirage III CAP to abandon high altitude and engage, resulting in a Mirage III shot down by a Harrier’s sidewinder, and a second Mirage III shouted-down while retreating by friendly fire from an Argie AAG battery based on Falklands – Argentine propaganda portrayed the shoot down of her own aircraft as a Harrier.

Since then, Mirage III and IAI Dagger were used as air cover for A4 and other Daggers coming back from ground attacks and bombing British naval units, and also for tanker aircraft. To that role that could have ended up in air-to-air combats, they were deployed as a screen close to the Argentinian Coast, flying at high altitude and armed with AAM. For what I know, any Harriers pursuing Argentine A4 or IAI Dagger flying away from the combat zone over the Falklands approached the areas close to Argentine mainland patrolled by the Daggers and Mirage they simply turned back and avoided fighter vs fighter encounter – a smart decision I think, since they would have been probably out-numbered and forced to fight on high altitude.
IAI Dagger together with A4 Skyhawk attacked the British Task-Force in low-flying missions after the landings in San Carlos, from May 21th to May 25th. Those were the main air-to-air and air-to-surface engagements of the war.

The Argentine FAA and Navy claims they attacked HMS Invincible on May 30th – most likely they did launch an attack to what they thought was the HMS Invincible, but they missed.

The bulk of IAI Dagger were used to attack the British Fleet before the alleged attack against HMS Invincible, and their pilots (together with the A4 ones) had been training for such attacks agains British ships since the beggining of the war

[Gallo Rojo]

I would play the missiles like the "Aimed AA Fire" similar to how it's described in the rule book. I would have it move only one measuring stick a turn so the fighter being shot at still can attempt to maneuver away.Example. A AiM-9 is given the range of two sticks. It should be on a card similar to a fighter card with a "firing arc". The firing arc is the Field of View, if a target with a straight line drawn to the middle/peg of the missile is NOT in this FoV than the missile losses target and is eliminated. Same goes for the plane firing the missile, a target must be a straight line within the firing arc.
An AiM-9 with a two stick range should take two turns to completely move and fire/explodes just like it would do as "Aimed AA" in the rule book.

Great idea! I love it!

[Maverick]

An interesting thread.....

If you are considering including ground to air (G2A) capability....Then consider reality in terms of 'actual' capability...

Then allow at least 4 to 5 days from deployment for the 'wonderful' Rapier to 'settle in'....travel sickness for the electronics!...
and then the system may be capable of engaging....
Then if including multiple posts (deployed units) allow for only one in three to actually function...ie fire at target when intending to engage !

Take into account the speed through the bay of the Argentine fighters and the low altitude....
You have seen how good the countrymen are at motor racing !

By the time Rapier was 'warmed up' and ready to fire...and then engages....

The Argentine pilot was back at base, AAR written, and a cup of 'something' alcoholic in hand !

Thank god the big white beast (Canberra) was never properly engaged..


Perhaps Air - Air (A2A) is better than Ground to Air (G2A)?

Have you considered the Pucara....

Thanks for the interesting ideas,

another call for 'modern' aircraft in scale perhaps ?