Sopwith Snipes?

[Franco Lucchini]

From what little I've read, Sopwith Snipes showed up late didn't see any action during WWI, but were used in engagements post-WWI. Incorrect?

Are there any air engagements post-WWI that can be done with them, with other WGF aircraft?

Thanks.

[Warhawk]

Hey Allen, they did see action briefly before the war ended. The first that comes to mind is William George Barker who received the Victoria Cross for his actions flying a Snipe on 27 October 1918. Check out this bio, there's mention of the engagement in the last paragraph.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/canada/barker.php

As for postwar I'll let someone else tackle that, I believe it's been discussed before.

[Franco Lucchini]

Thanks Wes!

Hmmm, now to find 60 D.VIIs...

[flash]

The first squadron to equip with the new fighter was No. 43 Squadron, based at Fienvillers in France, which replaced its Camels with 15 Snipes on 30 August 1918. After spending much of September training, it flew its first operational patrols equipped with the Snipe on 24 September.[11] The Snipe also saw service with No. 4 Squadron Australian Flying Corps (AFC) from October 1918. While 43 Squadron's Snipes saw relatively little combat, the Australians had more success, claiming five victories on 26 October and six on 28 October, while on 29 October, 4 Squadron claimed eight Fokker D.VIIs destroyed and two more driven down out of control for the loss of one of 15 Snipes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_Snipe

[Franco Lucchini]

Thanks guys.

Yes, Wikipedia and other internet sources, is just about the extent of my knowledge. What I've been able to piece together:
1) Snipes entered active service on August 30th and WWI ended on November 11th. So, it only saw a couple months of air combat.
2) Mostly it only engaged D.VIIs.
3) The Australians saw huge success with them. Not necessarily important to my final decision, but a fun fact nonetheless.
4) It saw use in the Russian Civil War with the Whites, but I could not easily find what planes the Reds may have been flying.

So, when considering whether to add Snipes to my small-ish WGF collection, its versatility across the time period and against different opponents wanes. Now, if it was used post-WWI in some interesting air engagements, it would be eclectic enough (at least to me) to collect a few.

Thanks again for the help.

[Dom S]

1) Yep.
2) Sort of, simply because they were the backbone of the German fighter arm by then. 4th AFC happened to be in the same sector as Jasta Boelcke in the closing weeks of the war, so they became their main opposition, but other Jastas and two-seater units were also knocking around.
3) Indeedy. 4th AFC were a pretty sh*t-hot squadron by then, and took to the Snipe quite happily, in spite of having one of the top Jastas as their regular sparring partners....
4) The reds flew all sorts, including at least one captured Snipe. I suspect SPADs and Nieuports were most common though - the pre-civil war Russian air force was largely built around French types, some imported and some license-built, and just about everything from 1914 types to the latest designs was thrown into service during the civil war.

That is its lot for combat history though, unless you like particularly weird what-ifs, in which case the squadron that the Brazilian navy bought might offer some possibilities. They didn't see any historical action though; the Brazilian navy's bombers were occasionally used against rebels, but they didn't have any aircraft for the Snipes to pick fights with....

[Franco Lucchini]

Thanks Dom!

[Stumptonian]

Makes one wonder why Nexus decided on Snipes instead of Pups or Strutters

[Franco Lucchini]

Makes one wonder why Nexus decided on Snipes instead of Pups or Strutters

Kind of my thoughts too, but I'm a WGF-newbie.

[Naharaht]

They chose Snipes to counter the Fokker D.VII models in series 2.

[gully_raker]

Makes one wonder why Nexus decided on Snipes instead of Pups or Strutters

I think it was purely based on giving the Brits something to fight against the Fok D.VII & it is now needed against the Seimans Schuekets as they have some awesome abilities.

[Hedeby]

A little more on Barker's epic 1 vs. 60 encounter which earned him his VC

As he climbed into the clear air he spotted a large German aircraft over the lines doing reconnaissance of the area. He couldn't resist and went up after it over La Foret de Mormal. He caught up to it at 22,000 feet and found the crew to be very good. They easily manouevered to keep the rear gunner in position to fire at Barker, and he hit the Snipe several times. Using his deadly accuracy Barker circled away and came back at the plane and shot the gunner dead from 200 yards. Now he closed in for the kill and hit some vital components. The plane broke up and the pilot had a long drop to his death. But Barker made a mistake, like Richthofen and others, he became so involved in the fight that he didn't spot the Fokker DVII biplane climb up behind him. The first he knew about the other German aircraft was when an explosive bullet shattered the femur of his right leg. He immediately banked left, and began a circling fight with the Fokker. They lost considerable height before the Snipe out circled the Fokker and Barker fired a burst into its gas tank, igniting the whole plane. However, Billy Barker's troubles were just being. He had dropped into the upper Jasta of an entire "circus" made up of nearly 60 Fokkers. They attacked from all sides and directions. The tiny Snipe was being chewed to shreds and he was hit in the left thigh. He fought back valiantly, driving down two Fokkers in spins. Fainting from pain and blood loss his airplane fell out of control for several thousand feet. The rushing air revived him, and he halted his fall but he found that he had spun down into the middle Jasta. The fight started all over again, with his Snipe being shot up from all around. In desperation he picked out a nearby Fokker and charged it, firing all the time. Just as he reached the other aircraft it blew apart and fell away. His left elbow was hit by a bullet and shattered. Again he fainted from pain and shock and the Snipe fell into a spin. He fell a long ways this time but eventually came to and managed somehow to pull out of his dive and got onto the tail of a Fokker in the lower level Jasta. He shot it down in flames. He headed for the Allied lines but was intercepted by a German flight. He charged at them and broke up their formation and turned again for the lines. His gas tank was shot away from under his seat and, amazingly, did not catch on fire. He had just enough strength to flip on a small reserve tank of fuel. He headed down as fast as the Snipe would go, nearly out of control and crashed at top speed, flipping the tough, little airplane onto its nose. Members of a Highland regiment pulled him from the wreckage and were amazed to find him alive. Thousands of British soldiers, including Canada's General Andrew McNaughton, had watched the whole fight and were cheering lustily as Barker obviously beat the entire German circus.

He remained unconscious for several days in No. 8 General Hospital in Rouen. He received congratulatory telegrams from the King, the Prince of Wales, and Lord Hamilton in Italy. On November 20, 1918 he was awarded the Victoria Cross and was again inundated with congratulations, from Prime Minister Borden, the Canadian General Staff and the one that meant the most to him, from Lt-Col. Billy Bishop (no comment Bishop - this time a VC that was witnessed by hundreds rather than none - but that is another story). By January, 1919 he was moved to England to convalesce. His wounds were very serious, and the broken bones in his thighs never really healed well, keeping him in constant pain, and a semi-cripple.

[Hedeby]

A little more on Barker's epic 1 vs. 60 encounter which earned him his VC

As he climbed into the clear air he spotted a large German aircraft over the lines doing reconnaissance of the area. He couldn't resist and went up after it over La Foret de Mormal. He caught up to it at 22,000 feet and found the crew to be very good. They easily manouevered to keep the rear gunner in position to fire at Barker, and he hit the Snipe several times. Using his deadly accuracy Barker circled away and came back at the plane and shot the gunner dead from 200 yards. Now he closed in for the kill and hit some vital components. The plane broke up and the pilot had a long drop to his death. But Barker made a mistake, like Richthofen and others, he became so involved in the fight that he didn't spot the Fokker DVII biplane climb up behind him. The first he knew about the other German aircraft was when an explosive bullet shattered the femur of his right leg. He immediately banked left, and began a circling fight with the Fokker. They lost considerable height before the Snipe out circled the Fokker and Barker fired a burst into its gas tank, igniting the whole plane. However, Billy Barker's troubles were just being. He had dropped into the upper Jasta of an entire "circus" made up of nearly 60 Fokkers. They attacked from all sides and directions. The tiny Snipe was being chewed to shreds and he was hit in the left thigh. He fought back valiantly, driving down two Fokkers in spins. Fainting from pain and blood loss his airplane fell out of control for several thousand feet. The rushing air revived him, and he halted his fall but he found that he had spun down into the middle Jasta. The fight started all over again, with his Snipe being shot up from all around. In desperation he picked out a nearby Fokker and charged it, firing all the time. Just as he reached the other aircraft it blew apart and fell away. His left elbow was hit by a bullet and shattered. Again he fainted from pain and shock and the Snipe fell into a spin. He fell a long ways this time but eventually came to and managed somehow to pull out of his dive and got onto the tail of a Fokker in the lower level Jasta. He shot it down in flames. He headed for the Allied lines but was intercepted by a German flight. He charged at them and broke up their formation and turned again for the lines. His gas tank was shot away from under his seat and, amazingly, did not catch on fire. He had just enough strength to flip on a small reserve tank of fuel. He headed down as fast as the Snipe would go, nearly out of control and crashed at top speed, flipping the tough, little airplane onto its nose. Members of a Highland regiment pulled him from the wreckage and were amazed to find him alive. Thousands of British soldiers, including Canada's General Andrew McNaughton, had watched the whole fight and were cheering lustily as Barker obviously beat the entire German circus.

He remained unconscious for several days in No. 8 General Hospital in Rouen. He received congratulatory telegrams from the King, the Prince of Wales, and Lord Hamilton in Italy. On November 20, 1918 he was awarded the Victoria Cross and was again inundated with congratulations, from Prime Minister Borden, the Canadian General Staff and the one that meant the most to him, from Lt-Col. Billy Bishop (no comment Bishop - this time a VC that was witnessed by hundreds rather than none - but that is another story). By January, 1919 he was moved to England to convalesce. His wounds were very serious, and the broken bones in his thighs never really healed well, keeping him in constant pain, and a semi-cripple.

Now that is what I call a well earned VC - must rank as one of the most incredible dog fights of all time. Salute !

[fast.git]

They chose Snipes to counter the Fokker D.VII models in series 2.

That's how I understand it as well. I've always wished they paired the D.VII with the S.E.5a...

[Teaticket]

That's how I understand it as well. I've always wished they paired the D.VII with the S.E.5a...

At least with this pairing you don't need a 60 DVIIs for your 1 Snipe!

[LOOP]

That's how I understand it as well. I've always wished they paired the D.VII with the S.E.5a...

So do I. But the Snipe is a very fun plane to fly. Speaking of that. Have anyone read anything about the nonsteep wide sideslip of the "new" M-deck? Is it a missprint or not?

[LOOP]

At least with this pairing you don't need a 60 DVIIs for your 1 Snipe!

Sounds like a challenge for you Flash

[Franco Lucchini]

At least with this pairing you don't need a 60 DVIIs for your 1 Snipe!

[Franco Lucchini]

A little more on Barker's epic 1 vs. 60 encounter which earned him his VC

As he climbed into the clear air he spotted a large German aircraft over the lines doing reconnaissance of the area. He couldn't resist and went up after it over La Foret de Mormal. He caught up to it at 22,000 feet and found the crew to be very good. They easily manouevered to keep the rear gunner in position to fire at Barker, and he hit the Snipe several times. Using his deadly accuracy Barker circled away and came back at the plane and shot the gunner dead from 200 yards. Now he closed in for the kill and hit some vital components. The plane broke up and the pilot had a long drop to his death. But Barker made a mistake, like Richthofen and others, he became so involved in the fight that he didn't spot the Fokker DVII biplane climb up behind him. The first he knew about the other German aircraft was when an explosive bullet shattered the femur of his right leg. He immediately banked left, and began a circling fight with the Fokker. They lost considerable height before the Snipe out circled the Fokker and Barker fired a burst into its gas tank, igniting the whole plane. However, Billy Barker's troubles were just being. He had dropped into the upper Jasta of an entire "circus" made up of nearly 60 Fokkers. They attacked from all sides and directions. The tiny Snipe was being chewed to shreds and he was hit in the left thigh. He fought back valiantly, driving down two Fokkers in spins. Fainting from pain and blood loss his airplane fell out of control for several thousand feet. The rushing air revived him, and he halted his fall but he found that he had spun down into the middle Jasta. The fight started all over again, with his Snipe being shot up from all around. In desperation he picked out a nearby Fokker and charged it, firing all the time. Just as he reached the other aircraft it blew apart and fell away. His left elbow was hit by a bullet and shattered. Again he fainted from pain and shock and the Snipe fell into a spin. He fell a long ways this time but eventually came to and managed somehow to pull out of his dive and got onto the tail of a Fokker in the lower level Jasta. He shot it down in flames. He headed for the Allied lines but was intercepted by a German flight. He charged at them and broke up their formation and turned again for the lines. His gas tank was shot away from under his seat and, amazingly, did not catch on fire. He had just enough strength to flip on a small reserve tank of fuel. He headed down as fast as the Snipe would go, nearly out of control and crashed at top speed, flipping the tough, little airplane onto its nose. Members of a Highland regiment pulled him from the wreckage and were amazed to find him alive. Thousands of British soldiers, including Canada's General Andrew McNaughton, had watched the whole fight and were cheering lustily as Barker obviously beat the entire German circus.

He remained unconscious for several days in No. 8 General Hospital in Rouen. He received congratulatory telegrams from the King, the Prince of Wales, and Lord Hamilton in Italy. On November 20, 1918 he was awarded the Victoria Cross and was again inundated with congratulations, from Prime Minister Borden, the Canadian General Staff and the one that meant the most to him, from Lt-Col. Billy Bishop (no comment Bishop - this time a VC that was witnessed by hundreds rather than none - but that is another story). By January, 1919 he was moved to England to convalesce. His wounds were very serious, and the broken bones in his thighs never really healed well, keeping him in constant pain, and a semi-cripple.

Now that is what I call a well earned VC - must rank as one of the most incredible dog fights of all time. Salute !

Thanks Chris. Fun read.

Perhaps my mates are up to something with their initiative-grabbing suicide tactics on the table.

[Stumptonian]

Thanks for that info on Barker, Chris. I have his Snipe and Camel. A great Canadian hero.


I'd give you rep but just did for your AAR on the HP

[gully_raker]

A little more on Barker's epic 1 vs. 60 encounter which earned him his VC

As he climbed into the clear air he spotted a large German aircraft over the lines doing reconnaissance of the area. He couldn't resist and went up after it over La Foret de Mormal. He caught up to it at 22,000 feet and found the crew to be very good. They easily manouevered to keep the rear gunner in position to fire at Barker, and he hit the Snipe several times. Using his deadly accuracy Barker circled away and came back at the plane and shot the gunner dead from 200 yards. Now he closed in for the kill and hit some vital components. The plane broke up and the pilot had a long drop to his death. But Barker made a mistake, like Richthofen and others, he became so involved in the fight that he didn't spot the Fokker DVII biplane climb up behind him. The first he knew about the other German aircraft was when an explosive bullet shattered the femur of his right leg. He immediately banked left, and began a circling fight with the Fokker. They lost considerable height before the Snipe out circled the Fokker and Barker fired a burst into its gas tank, igniting the whole plane. However, Billy Barker's troubles were just being. He had dropped into the upper Jasta of an entire "circus" made up of nearly 60 Fokkers. They attacked from all sides and directions. The tiny Snipe was being chewed to shreds and he was hit in the left thigh. He fought back valiantly, driving down two Fokkers in spins. Fainting from pain and blood loss his airplane fell out of control for several thousand feet. The rushing air revived him, and he halted his fall but he found that he had spun down into the middle Jasta. The fight started all over again, with his Snipe being shot up from all around. In desperation he picked out a nearby Fokker and charged it, firing all the time. Just as he reached the other aircraft it blew apart and fell away. His left elbow was hit by a bullet and shattered. Again he fainted from pain and shock and the Snipe fell into a spin. He fell a long ways this time but eventually came to and managed somehow to pull out of his dive and got onto the tail of a Fokker in the lower level Jasta. He shot it down in flames. He headed for the Allied lines but was intercepted by a German flight. He charged at them and broke up their formation and turned again for the lines. His gas tank was shot away from under his seat and, amazingly, did not catch on fire. He had just enough strength to flip on a small reserve tank of fuel. He headed down as fast as the Snipe would go, nearly out of control and crashed at top speed, flipping the tough, little airplane onto its nose. Members of a Highland regiment pulled him from the wreckage and were amazed to find him alive. Thousands of British soldiers, including Canada's General Andrew McNaughton, had watched the whole fight and were cheering lustily as Barker obviously beat the entire German circus.

He remained unconscious for several days in No. 8 General Hospital in Rouen. He received congratulatory telegrams from the King, the Prince of Wales, and Lord Hamilton in Italy. On November 20, 1918 he was awarded the Victoria Cross and was again inundated with congratulations, from Prime Minister Borden, the Canadian General Staff and the one that meant the most to him, from Lt-Col. Billy Bishop (no comment Bishop - this time a VC that was witnessed by hundreds rather than none - but that is another story). By January, 1919 he was moved to England to convalesce. His wounds were very serious, and the broken bones in his thighs never really healed well, keeping him in constant pain, and a semi-cripple.

Now that is what I call a well earned VC - must rank as one of the most incredible dog fights of all time. Salute !

I could not agree more.
He was a genuine Hero & most deserving of his V.C.

['Warspite']

1)
4) The reds flew all sorts, including at least one captured Snipe. I suspect SPADs and Nieuports were most common though - the pre-civil war Russian air force was largely built around French types, some imported and some license-built, and just about everything from 1914 types to the latest designs was thrown into service during the civil war.

The Red Russians also had at least one Fokker DVII, painted all-black and presumably with red stars. There is some mystery as to who the pilot of the black DVII was but he was talented and gained at least 10 kills. He was last seen to be hit in a dogfight and dived into the bank of a river where it exploded. Speculation suggests the pilot may have been German and might have been flying as a mercenary or Communist convert. His identity has never been established.

I also found this in our own archive (thank you Zoe)

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/arc...p/t-18792.html

Zoe's second post mentions the black Fokker DVII and also links to this:

http://combatace.com/topic/52033-all-black-fokker-dvii/

Barry

[OldGuy59]

A little more on Barker's epic 1 vs. 60 encounter which earned him his VC

As he climbed into the clear air he spotted a large German aircraft over the lines doing reconnaissance of the area. He couldn't resist and went up after it over La Foret de Mormal. He caught up to it at 22,000 feet and found the crew to be very good. They easily manouevered to keep the rear gunner in position to fire at Barker, and he hit the Snipe several times. Using his deadly accuracy Barker circled away and came back at the plane and shot the gunner dead from 200 yards. Now he closed in for the kill and hit some vital components. The plane broke up and the pilot had a long drop to his death. But Barker made a mistake, like Richthofen and others, he became so involved in the fight that he didn't spot the Fokker DVII biplane climb up behind him. The first he knew about the other German aircraft was when an explosive bullet shattered the femur of his right leg. He immediately banked left, and began a circling fight with the Fokker. They lost considerable height before the Snipe out circled the Fokker and Barker fired a burst into its gas tank, igniting the whole plane. However, Billy Barker's troubles were just being. He had dropped into the upper Jasta of an entire "circus" made up of nearly 60 Fokkers. They attacked from all sides and directions. The tiny Snipe was being chewed to shreds and he was hit in the left thigh. He fought back valiantly, driving down two Fokkers in spins. Fainting from pain and blood loss his airplane fell out of control for several thousand feet. The rushing air revived him, and he halted his fall but he found that he had spun down into the middle Jasta. The fight started all over again, with his Snipe being shot up from all around. In desperation he picked out a nearby Fokker and charged it, firing all the time. Just as he reached the other aircraft it blew apart and fell away. His left elbow was hit by a bullet and shattered. Again he fainted from pain and shock and the Snipe fell into a spin. He fell a long ways this time but eventually came to and managed somehow to pull out of his dive and got onto the tail of a Fokker in the lower level Jasta. He shot it down in flames. He headed for the Allied lines but was intercepted by a German flight. He charged at them and broke up their formation and turned again for the lines. His gas tank was shot away from under his seat and, amazingly, did not catch on fire. He had just enough strength to flip on a small reserve tank of fuel. He headed down as fast as the Snipe would go, nearly out of control and crashed at top speed, flipping the tough, little airplane onto its nose. Members of a Highland regiment pulled him from the wreckage and were amazed to find him alive. Thousands of British soldiers, including Canada's General Andrew McNaughton, had watched the whole fight and were cheering lustily as Barker obviously beat the entire German circus.

He remained unconscious for several days in No. 8 General Hospital in Rouen. He received congratulatory telegrams from the King, the Prince of Wales, and Lord Hamilton in Italy. On November 20, 1918 he was awarded the Victoria Cross and was again inundated with congratulations, from Prime Minister Borden, the Canadian General Staff and the one that meant the most to him, from Lt-Col. Billy Bishop (no comment Bishop - this time a VC that was witnessed by hundreds rather than none - but that is another story). By January, 1919 he was moved to England to convalesce. His wounds were very serious, and the broken bones in his thighs never really healed well, keeping him in constant pain, and a semi-cripple.

Now that is what I call a well earned VC - must rank as one of the most incredible dog fights of all time. Salute !

Interestingly enough, in Barker's bio, he never wanted to talk about this disaster. The only thing he ever said about it was that he regretted ever having the encounter, as it demonstrated all the mistakes he tried to teach new pilots not to do. Receiving a medal, especially the VC, rewarding these mistakes just devastated him. Wearing the medal continuously reminded him of his mistakes, and the adoration of his blunder by others compounded his personal shame.

[Flying_Corpse]

Hi Team

As an Australian and fan of the Sopwith Camel and Snipe, I am naturally also interested in 4 Squadron, Australian Flying Corps (4 AFC). There is an excellent discussion of the Snipe’s employment against the Fokker D.VIIs of Jasta Boelcke in the closing days of World War 1 at the Aerodrome here: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...00&postcount=1

Interestingly, one of the victims of this day’s combat, 12-victory ace Captain Baker DFC MM*, is represented by Wings of War WW08e Sopwith Snipe (Baker).

There’s also a good blog post here, which places 4 AFC’s final battles of 4 November, 1918 in the Snipe in a wider context (though it doesn’t mention their opponents were the elite Jasta 2): https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2019/01/22/last-flights/. It’s also worth noting I understand 4 AFC only received their Snipes on 26 October (I read that somewhere else) so had been operating them for about 10 days [Correction: I subsequently read in a Cross and Cockade article that 4 AFC received their first Snipes on 3 October and took them across the lines on operations for the first time on 8 October.]

The Snipe’s exposure to combat may have been brief, but it was certainly intense!