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Thread: Discouraging suicide tactics

  1. #1

    Default Discouraging suicide tactics

    I find in my gaming group, too often, most pilots dive for the "furball" and start shooting with full disregard for their own safety. Sure, initiative and all, but...

    Any house rules out there for encouraging longevity in multi-player games?

    I've started keeping track of kills/nationality for each player. After 5 kills, you get ace status with an upgrade (got to figure how best to deal this out). However, if you get shot down, under that flag, your kills for that nationality go to zero.

    Thought?

  2. #2

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    Create a goal other than last-man-standing. Make a recon mission or the like.

    Limit fuel or ammunition by handing out tokens or cards for each.

  3. #3

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    Limited ammo as per KOTA rules . And defined missions not always dog fights

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    ...Any house rules out there for encouraging longevity in multi-player games?
    As well as the above suggestions you could always force them to break off from the fight Allen - This works well in Over The Trenches campaign but you might be able to adapt it, or create something similar for WW2:

    All aircraft will actively engage until they are:
    a. Within 3 of destruction, or,
    b. Within 5 of destruction if on fire, or,
    c. The pilot’s wounded (on A deck 5 or B deck 3) or,
    d. The engine is damaged,
    They must then disengage and head for the barn at best speed taking whatever evasive manoeuvres are necessary for survival, and shots at targets of opportunity - that's something in range crossing their nose !



    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    I've started keeping track of kills/nationality for each player. After 5 kills, you get ace status with an upgrade (got to figure how best to deal this out). However, if you get shot down, under that flag, your kills for that nationality go to zero...
    Seems that would work - alternatively you could use a system to determine if that pilot survived/escaped - if he does his tally continues to grow - if not he starts again. Either way, as the tally grows they will be less willing to sacrifice their pilot cheaply !
    Have a look in the Fire in the Skies solo campaign rules for WW2 too, you might find some things you could use from there.
    Last edited by flash; 03-28-2016 at 01:55.

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    Hard to judge where crazy or irrational behaviour starts.

    If you have a chance to escape with 1 or 2 points left, you should do so to prevent enemy victory points.

    But if you can't, you should attack and try to harm The Opponent as much as possible.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Hard to judge where crazy or irrational behaviour starts.
    Yeah, I have the opposite problem with some of the kids I play with. They want to hang back and keep their plane safe.

    Part of the scrum is having everyone pressing their luck. It's sort of the nature of the game, including its real-life counterpart.

  7. #7

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    I tend to stay around too long myself, thinking "just one more shot"...in fact, you will see in the Scenario AAR I have to write up and post.

    Make folks use the "rookie" rule their first battle after respawning. Aces have all kinds of fun bonuses in the rule books. If you wanted you could get the "Evasion" skill after say 3 battles survived...that gives you an incentive to stay alive!

  8. #8

    Lord_Ninja's Avatar
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    Whomever has the best K/D at the end of the game gets to take home a six-pack of fancy beer that everyone earlier in the game chipped in for.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    I find in my gaming group, too often, most pilots dive for the "furball" and start shooting with full disregard for their own safety. Sure, initiative and all, but...
    I find that we play with limited fuel and ammo (each pilot dices them for at the start as well as starting altitude) and I am not really aware of this suicide complex that you are complaining about. We do tend to have mostly the same group of guys playing with the occasional addition so that may be the reason also.
    We also have stared using the 'Get back to base, land and sit there for a few moves while your aircraft undergoes necessary maintenance; you discard a damage card for every move that you do nothing else. Strangely we haven't introduced re-arming and re-fuelling at the same time. I must mention this for our next game.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    I find in my gaming group, too often, most pilots dive for the "furball" and start shooting with full disregard for their own safety. Sure, initiative and all, but...

    Any house rules out there for encouraging longevity in multi-player games?

    I've started keeping track of kills/nationality for each player. After 5 kills, you get ace status with an upgrade (got to figure how best to deal this out). However, if you get shot down, under that flag, your kills for that nationality go to zero.

    Thought?
    Just had another thought!
    This is surely the thing to do if you are playing Japanese Kamikaze as I have occasionally done in the past.

  11. #11

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    Chris (hedeby) and I trialed a simple system at York.

    1. Any aircraft with damage could leave the playing area.
    2. For every 3 cards off table the aircraft could loose one damage card.
    3. The aircraft could return on card 1 of any turn. Any damage remaining stays with aircraft.
    4. Wounds cannot be removed.
    5. Any untaken fire damage must also be resolved.

    This allows pilot's to escape and return with playing the suicide card.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    Whomever has the best K/D at the end of the game gets to take home a six-pack of fancy beer that everyone earlier in the game chipped in for.
    Wonderful answer Lucas!

  13. #13

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    Thanks for all the great ideas. I don't use limited fuel and ammo nearly enough. Since most of our games are scenario based and therefore limited in turns (completion of an objective and flee), mathematically, limited ammo/fuel wouldn't change the game, but perhaps psychologically...

    Primarily we've done escape off the board (with escorts), bombing and re-supply missions. Haven't done recon yet. Thanks for the idea John!

    We don't respawn. Most of our scenarios would be over historically, before new planes are vectored in.

    Unfortunately, too often our tactics are, "...forget the objective, if the enemy is gone I win!...and can complete the objective later." Re-spawns would stop that nonsense.

    In the end, they are just grabbing the initiative, ala Lt Barker. I'll just be ready to hand out more C chits...
    Last edited by Franco Lucchini; 03-29-2016 at 13:39.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel View Post
    Just had another thought!
    This is surely the thing to do if you are playing Japanese Kamikaze as I have occasionally done in the past.
    Kind of tough to become an ace that way... However, that is a wonderful idea as a scenario for one of Sunday afternoon mega-multi-player games!

    Okay, the most I've had was nine players and it is fun, but I'm usually ready for a nap afterwards.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    As well as the above suggestions you could always force them to break off from the fight Allen - This works well in Over The Trenches campaign but you might be able to adapt it, or create something similar for WW2:

    All aircraft will actively engage until they are:
    a. Within 3 of destruction, or,
    b. Within 5 of destruction if on fire, or,
    c. The pilot’s wounded (on A deck 5 or B deck 3) or,
    d. The engine is damaged,
    They must then disengage and head for the barn at best speed taking whatever evasive manoeuvres are necessary for survival, and shots at targets of opportunity - that's something in range crossing their nose !





    Seems that would work - alternatively you could use a system to determine if that pilot survived/escaped - if he does his tally continues to grow - if not he starts again. Either way, as the tally grows they will be less willing to sacrifice their pilot cheaply !
    Have a look in the Fire in the Skies solo campaign rules for WW2 too, you might find some things you could use from there.
    Back in the day, there was a miniatures game that had morale rules, and your team would leg it under pressure. I think for one-off games, the campaign thing wouldn't work, but for any game, a morale (Common sense? Self-preservation in real life) rule should be there. I need it, personally, because I don't quit when I should, either.

    So, once you reach a certain amount of damage, you draw a damage card before planning your next move. It doesn't do any damage, but if the points on the card are more than your remaining points, you plan your route home, not further into the fight.

    This would mean that if your opponents are firing at you using B damage, you start drawing cards when you are at 4 or less, and if your opponents are firing A damage, when you have 5 or less.

    This may indicate to your opponents that you are in trouble, but you will probably have a bunch of cards anyway. House rule for periodic checks? Every five turns, draw a card, even if you haven't taken damage. If you draw the Boom Card or Pilot Wound special damage, you have a catastrophic moral fiber failure and run, regardless of how much damage you don't have. Reshuffle the card(s) back into the deck, once all players have drawn?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  16. #16

    LOOP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagrilarus View Post
    Yeah, I have the opposite problem with some of the kids I play with. They want to hang back and keep their plane safe.
    That is exactly what my son did When I got the Siemens-Schuckert DIII it soon became his favorit. Not because it used the excellent O-deck no because it could climb higher that any other plane I have. He quickly climbed to level 17 and stayed there until everyone els was gone or very damaged. Than he dived down and "mop up"

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    Whomever has the best K/D at the end of the game gets to take home a six-pack of fancy beer that everyone earlier in the game chipped in for.
    Assuming there's any of it left.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Back in the day, there was a miniatures game that had morale rules, and your team would leg it under pressure. I think for one-off games, the campaign thing wouldn't work, but for any game, a morale (Common sense? Self-preservation in real life) rule should be there. I need it, personally, because I don't quit when I should, either.

    So, once you reach a certain amount of damage, you draw a damage card before planning your next move. It doesn't do any damage, but if the points on the card are more than your remaining points, you plan your route home, not further into the fight.

    This would mean that if your opponents are firing at you using B damage, you start drawing cards when you are at 4 or less, and if your opponents are firing A damage, when you have 5 or less.

    This may indicate to your opponents that you are in trouble, but you will probably have a bunch of cards anyway. House rule for periodic checks? Every five turns, draw a card, even if you haven't taken damage. If you draw the Boom Card or Pilot Wound special damage, you have a catastrophic moral fiber failure and run, regardless of how much damage you don't have. Reshuffle the card(s) back into the deck, once all players have drawn?
    Nice thought Mike. We use moral rules in other systems, so why not his one too? Interesting application too.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    That is exactly what my son did When I got the Siemens-Schuckert DIII it soon became his favorit. Not because it used the excellent O-deck no because it could climb higher that any other plane I have. He quickly climbed to level 17 and stayed there until everyone els was gone or very damaged. Than he dived down and "mop up"
    Smart kid! That is exactly how I used to play in AH's Richtofen War, given the chance.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagrilarus View Post
    Assuming there's any of it left.
    hmmm...

    I encourage all my wingmen to stick with coffee though.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Back in the day, there was a miniatures game that had morale rules, and your team would leg it under pressure. I think for one-off games, the campaign thing wouldn't work, but for any game, a morale (Common sense? Self-preservation in real life) rule should be there. I need it, personally, because I don't quit when I should, either.

    So, once you reach a certain amount of damage, you draw a damage card before planning your next move. It doesn't do any damage, but if the points on the card are more than your remaining points, you plan your route home, not further into the fight.

    This would mean that if your opponents are firing at you using B damage, you start drawing cards when you are at 4 or less, and if your opponents are firing A damage, when you have 5 or less.

    This may indicate to your opponents that you are in trouble, but you will probably have a bunch of cards anyway. House rule for periodic checks? Every five turns, draw a card, even if you haven't taken damage. If you draw the Boom Card or Pilot Wound special damage, you have a catastrophic moral fiber failure and run, regardless of how much damage you don't have. Reshuffle the card(s) back into the deck, once all players have drawn?
    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    Nice thought Mike. We use moral rules in other systems, so why not his one too? Interesting application too.
    I tried to stick with the theme of the game, and keep away from dice. But, I have run this through my head a few times and it needs a few modifiers, such as did that other game:

    How many of your side are left vs how many you came in with? Any loses are added to the card number or a ratio, if large numbers of planes used.
    How many opponents are left? Add that to the card number. Same thing here, use a ratio if large numbers of planes used.
    Any friendly planes visibly damaged (smoking or burning)? Add them to the card number.
    Any other factor that would cause a morale issue? Add that to the card number.

    With this House Rule implemented, you'd have to allow for a "Pilot Skill" of "No Self-Preservation" or "Against All Odds" or something... A pilot with this skill would ignore the morale checks. Ignoring morale checks doesn't mean he won't leave a fight, just that he isn't forced to leave because of a morale check.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-31-2016 at 08:40.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  22. #22

    LOOP
    Guest


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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    Smart kid! That is exactly how I used to play in AH's Richtofen War, given the chance.
    But not very "wingman-friendly"
    There have been more than one ocasion when I or his sister was shot down trying to acheve the objektive when he was flying safe.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    But not very "wingman-friendly"
    There have been more than one ocasion when I or his sister was shot down trying to acheve the objektive when he was flying safe.
    Hand him a white feather, he'll soon get involved then !

    "He is wise who watches"

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    But not very "wingman-friendly"
    There have been more than one ocasion when I or his sister was shot down trying to acheve the objektive when he was flying safe.
    Ahh, yes not very wingman-friendly. We have the issue with some of the young players in our mega-games wether it is planes, starship troopers, etc. - self-preservation. Easily fixed with post-game promotions, awards, benefits, etc. that apply to future games. When he sees his sister getting promoted and gaining ace abilities, perhaps he'll join in the fray. Good luck.

  25. #25

    LOOP
    Guest


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    Well it is not an issue now. Lets put it this way. The squadronleader had a talk to him about combattactics and flying as a team.
    (Read: I got another SS DIII and the skies became crowded ) (friendly fire was allowed )

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Well it is not an issue now. Lets put it this way. The squadronleader had a talk to him about combattactics and flying as a team.
    (Read: I got another SS DIII and the skies became crowded ) (friendly fire was allowed )
    Sounds like a good flight leader to wingman conversation.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Well it is not an issue now. Lets put it this way. The squadronleader had a talk to him about combattactics and flying as a team.
    (Read: I got another SS DIII and the skies became crowded ) (friendly fire was allowed )
    Sounds like a good flight leader to wingman conversation.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I tried to stick with the theme of the game, and keep away from dice. But, I have run this through my head a few times and it needs a few modifiers, such as did that other game:

    How many of your side are left vs how many you came in with? Any loses are added to the card number or a ratio, if large numbers of planes used.
    How many opponents are left? Add that to the card number. Same thing here, use a ratio if large numbers of planes used.
    Any friendly planes visibly damaged (smoking or burning)? Add them to the card number.
    Any other factor that would cause a morale issue? Add that to the card number.

    With this House Rule implemented, you'd have to allow for a "Pilot Skill" of "No Self-Preservation" or "Against All Odds" or something... A pilot with this skill would ignore the morale checks. Ignoring morale checks doesn't mean he won't leave a fight, just that he isn't forced to leave because of a morale check.
    That reminds - warhawk was gonna do a morale for the WWII Fire in the Skies campaign! I will see if he made any progress, or if he wants to tie it into here.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Resident View Post
    That reminds - warhawk was gonna do a morale for the WWII Fire in the Skies campaign! I will see if he made any progress, or if he wants to tie it into here.
    Posted at the other thread. My idea uses dice however, just something simple I put together. It is likely a conglomeration (right use of that word? ) of other people's ideas that I've seen from reading threads and campaign rules. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes if it's too similar to another person's idea, and feedback is most welcome.

  30. #30

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    Still dealing with this problem...
    Handing out C-damage chits for overlapping bases, and keeping track of kills for ace status (as long as you stay alive). Was hoping this would instill a little bit of self-preservation, wingman support, and fleeing when it got bad to fight another day.

    Yesterday, four CR.42 Falcos took on two Hawker Hurricanes (AAR forthcoming.) One of the Fiat pilots personally took out two of his wingmen with air-collisions, while the last Hawker got away. We laughed so hard, the Warhammer guys asked us to keep it down.

    Currently, Tenente Aceolini is under investigation. The lack of any bullet holes in his biplane is an obvious reflection of his flying skills. The scrapes, dents and burn marks are concerning however.

    Historically, wingmen seldom got the glory; their job was to hang back and support/protect the leader. Our wingmen push forward to the kill.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    We laughed so hard, the Warhammer guys asked us to keep it down.


    Deserving of a medal!

    Seriously, behaviour to be discouraged.................... naah, Medal!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    Still dealing with this problem...
    Handing out C-damage chits for overlapping bases, and keeping track of kills for ace status (as long as you stay alive). Was hoping this would instill a little bit of self-preservation, wingman support, and fleeing when it got bad to fight another day.

    Yesterday, four CR.42 Falcos took on two Hawker Hurricanes (AAR forthcoming.) One of the Fiat pilots personally took out two of his wingmen with air-collisions, while the last Hawker got away. We laughed so hard, the Warhammer guys asked us to keep it down.

    Currently, Tenente Aceolini is under investigation. The lack of any bullet holes in his biplane is an obvious reflection of his flying skills. The scrapes, dents and burn marks are concerning however.

    Historically, wingmen seldom got the glory; their job was to hang back and support/protect the leader. Our wingmen push forward to the kill.



    well at least you werent loud enough to elicit a complaint from the card floppers (ie magic and yugio players)

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    well at least you werent loud enough to elicit a complaint from the card floppers (ie magic and yugio players)
    Got some dirty looks from the RPG'ers. Does that count?

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lucchini View Post
    Still dealing with this problem...
    Handing out C-damage chits for overlapping bases, and keeping track of kills for ace status (as long as you stay alive)...
    Change the rule to pegs overlapping bases and you'll have far less problems - give them a victory chit for each kill they claim and add them up at the end, no chit, no confirmed kill, they'll soon help you keep track !

    "He is wise who watches"

  35. #35

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    Last time we played bombing raid on Belgrade (as we usualy do at it's anniversary). Stukas bombed targets succesfully, He111 scored half points and three of four Yugoslav fighters were shot down. Stukas went home, followed by heavily damaged German fighters. At the end only German He111 and Yugoslav Me109 were on the field. Yugoslav fighter attacked the escaping bomber and after few shots deliberately rammed it. And, having luck at his side, he shot the bomber down, maybe two cards before bomber would escape. So, sometimes risk pays



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