Dornier Do-217 Stats? Anyone?

[OldGuy59]

So, over on the Official Painting section, some people are painting up Do-217s. Also, some PM'ed me for a card.

Official Dornier 217 Painting Thread

In my attempt to do that, I look for inspiration, and hopefully get some project direction from the painting threads. Well, the specific paint scheme the PM was requesting isn't on the Painting thread. So, no top-down image of their color scheme to use for the card. No unit info, either. And in asking for that, on the painting thread, no surprise, more requests for version variations.

The Dornier Do-217 is not in the latest Unofficial Stats files, so no help there, either. I have three versions on the go, now: E-5, K-2, and N-2/R22. So, these are different speeds, and different firing arcs, and possibly different crews.

Help with stats?

Draft cards:

[OldGuy59]

So, no help with this? Anybody from the Unofficial Stats Committee?

[Zoe Brain]

So, no help with this? Anybody from the Unofficial Stats Committee?

Start with hit points . 12 + 2(EWIT). Empty Weight In Tons is 9.1 for M, 9.35 for J models. So 30 and 31 respectively.

On to speed. J - 303 mph, M - 347 mph. It uses the Heavy Bomber base, 8cm not 6.5cm in length, so variants of the J and D decks respectively, omitting all the tighter turns and sideslips.

[matt56]

I trust the defensive armament info I posted in the painting thread is of some help...if you need a top-down view of a model's paint scheme I posted one there - splinter overlaid with the 'squiggle' pattern - but a straight splinter like you have already done would be fine. I can add the squiggles to the card with paint when I print it off.

Happy to help however I can, Mike, although on this plane the internet is my only resource...thank goodness there's a Stats Committee to fall back on!

All the best,
Matt

[OldGuy59]

Start with hit points . 12 + 2(EWIT). Empty Weight In Tons is 9.1 for M, 9.35 for J models. So 30 and 31 respectively.

On to speed. J - 303 mph, M - 347 mph. It uses the Heavy Bomber base, 8cm not 6.5cm in length, so variants of the J and D decks respectively, omitting all the tighter turns and sideslips.

N-2: ... To kill the excess weight that had plagued earlier types, the bomb bay, its doors, and the bomb release gear were removed, and changes were made to the control panels. The gaps were replaced by lighter wood parts which reduced weight, allowing heavier armour protection for the crew. The N variant was the most heavily armoured Dornier variant.[86] The improvements enabled a top speed of 525 kilometres per hour (283 kn) (an increase of 25 kilometres per hour (13 kn)) and a reduction from 15,000 kilograms (33,000 lb) to 12,500 kilograms (27,600 lb), which increased ceiling height to 9,500 metres (31,200 ft).

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_217

Is any of the wiki stuff accurate? So, I would think the N version would be lighter and faster.

[Tonx]

So, I would think the N version would be lighter and faster.

I'm thinking armoured plating. The N was the most heavily armoured of the Dornier Do.217 variants as well as the most improved and refined.

Fastest variant - agree with you due to uprated powerplants / engines for operation at increased ceiling heights. If Wikipedia is wrong on this occasion it will not be the first time I have known this to be the case but then you think that the erroneous data would be removed - and it isn't being ...

[OldGuy59]

If we look at the weight reduction above, and drop 6,000 lbs off the M version, the empty weight of the N version would be around 14,000 lbs, including the armour.

12 + 2(EWIT) (6.35t) = 25-ish. Add armour protection for the crew?

[OldGuy59]

I'm getting some push-back from the Italian thread where I am attempting to create cards for this plane, concerning the use of the Heavy Bomber Base versus the Heavy Fighter Base. I explained it in relation to the resulting "speed" (distance traveled) using the HB base and the D card, against the HF base and the H card. I hope that is right?

Any confirmation on the damage? And on the other stats. I don't know how to calculate the armored crew area on the N version, and the lighter weight/ faster speed/faster climb rate stuff.

[Foz]

I'm getting some push-back from the Italian thread where I am attempting to create cards for this plane, concerning the use of the Heavy Bomber Base versus the Heavy Fighter Base. I explained it in relation to the resulting "speed" (distance traveled) using the HB base and the D card, against the HF base and the H card. I hope that is right?

Any confirmation on the damage? And on the other stats. I don't know how to calculate the armored crew area on the N version, and the lighter weight/ faster speed/faster climb rate stuff.

Dornier Do217-N

Base: Heavy Fighter
Damage: 32 (2*tonnes+12) There is no way really in the system as is to account for extra armour.
Deck: K (with fast side slip & reversal removed)
Climb: 9
Ceiling: 11
Weapons:
Standard Fixed Front Arc CCCCBB/CCB
Schräge Musik CCCC/CC (Fixed firing vertical, slightly angled forward)

Edited with more speed info below.

I like your take on Schräge Musik on the card.

[Zoe Brain]

Dornier Do217-N

Damage: 32 (2*tonnes+12) There is no way really in the system as is to account for extra armour.

Unless you use the house rules regarding radial engines, self-sealing tanks, and armoured cockpits, no.

[OldGuy59]

Thanks, everyone!

[Foz]

Which way did you leap on the base? The only official comparisons I can find so far are B-25 (67') on Bomber & Beaufighter (57') on Heavy Fighter.
So the tipping point is somewhere in those 10'.
Looking through the unofficial list, with the Ju88 being put on a HF base at just over 65', I would say go for the Heavy Fighter base for the Do217N.

Updated my initial answer with these changes.

[Foz]

Dornier Do-217-K

Base: Heavy Fighter
Damage: 30
Deck: K (with 45 degree turns, reversal, & fast side slips removed)
Climb: 10
Ceiling: 10
Weapons:
Nose turret: BA/A
Dorsel turret: A/A or B/A (Single or twin HMG)
Ventral turret: A/A

[Foz]

Ok, more digging and this site contradicts Wikipedia..
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/do217n.shtml
Saying that the N-1 could only do 515kMph, which ties in with the 525kMph for the N-2 quoted above. Also reading though all of the Wiki page, that also quotes the N-1 around 500kMph.
This drags the N-1 back to the K deck, same as the Do217-K, but with more manoeuvres. The N-2 would be the same as there isn't that fine a difference in decks.
The Do217-M would possibly have the B deck, but may have to be tweaked for the increase in wingload for the bomb load.

[OldGuy59]

So... For the N-2 we end up with this:



Now updated with the K(b) Maneuver Deck.

[Foz]

So... For the N-2 we end up with this:

Attachment 188985

B Maneuver Deck is unmodified? Immelmanns allowed?

See above about new research. Moved the deck to K. with tweaks.

[OldGuy59]

Updated, again.

[OldGuy59]

Dornier Do-217-K

Base: Heavy Fighter
Damage: 30
Deck: K (with 45 degree turns, reversal, & fast side slips removed)
Climb: 10
Ceiling: 10
Weapons:
Nose turret: BA/A
Dorsel turret: A/A or B/A (Single or twin HMG)
Ventral turret: A/A

Rear side cockpit MGs? I think 45 Degrees to left and right, but who fires them? Only a four man crew, right?

[Foz]

Updated, again.

Remember to tell people about the tweaks, you can't be throwing them planes around
Also that still looks like a bomber base?

[OldGuy59]

Remember to tell people about the tweaks, you can't be throwing them planes around
Also that still looks like a bomber base?

I don't know what you mean by tweaks. If it isn't on the card, or in the Unofficial Stats docs, it gets played by what's on the card.

And the Hvy Fighter base will take some work. I'll have to tackle that later.

[Jager]

I don't know what you mean by tweaks. If it isn't on the card, or in the Unofficial Stats docs, it gets played by what's on the card.

You can use my nomenclature: Maneuver deck K(b):
Any deck with the modifier (b) is for bombers: no reversals, 45 degree turns, 60 degree turns or extreme side slips.
From the notes page: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=2137

Karl

[Jager]

Mike: sorry if this bollixes things up, but I raised as point on base size for borderline planes, which the Do.217 and Ju.88 are, to the stats committee.
I don't know where the discussion will go, but my current opinion is that the Do-217 should use a bomber base, even though it's a couple of feet less wingspan than the Ju.88, which I still hold at HF base.
The summery for this is that the Do.217 flies like a bomber (yes, even the NF variant) while the Ju.88c flies like a heavy fighter.
Hopefully, we can reach an agreement soon.
Karl

[Zoe Brain]

The summery for this is that the Do.217 flies like a bomber (yes, even the NF variant) while the Ju.88c flies like a heavy fighter.

Concur.

[OldGuy59]

So, updated again, with the K(b) Maneuver deck, and I stopped translating the rest of the card into a Hvy Fighter.