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Thread: Opole Jetfighter Testcenter

  1. #1

    Default Opole Jetfighter Testcenter

    It was December 5th last year when I had a wonderful weekend with my Polish friends in Opole.
    After a great daytrip to Krakau and the remains of a nearby former Luftwaffe airfield we decided to play a game with Andrzej’s brand new Messerschmitt 262 Schwalbes.

    Goal of the game was to test some maneuver options for the WGS jetfighters.

    The game took place at Andrzej’s home and Slavek and his boys joined us for the first game.



    I was in command of this beautiful ace version of a Me262. Already 100 aerial victories on the score board, I want to add some “Viermots” on the victory list.



    We used a “R” movement deck for the Messerschmitts and abstract the sharp curves (7/18 – 8/18 – 9/18 – 10/18) and the sharp sideslips (15/18 – 16/18).

    The we add 3 open cards from an “E” movement deck. A straight (1/18) and two sharp curves (7/18 – 9/18).

    The idea was to use add the “slow movement” of one of the “E” cards before flying the regular maneuver with the “R” deck depending on the choosen maneuver.

    A straight “R” or the remaining sideslip “R” would get a slow straight “E” before. Each curve “R” would get a curve “E” before.
    For example you fly a straight. First you put the slow straight of the “E” deck in front of your plane and then you add the choosen slow or fast straight from the “R” deck maneuver to this card and place the plane at the end of it.

    Here you can see what happened the very first maneuver:


    Andrzej nearly left the table with the first two maneuver but turned around again and we headed for the bombers.



    The veterans of this Aerodrome know that the Nightbomer often cheers with a special Polish vodka named: Wyborova.

    Before the game I had a very tasty meal of Polish/Silesian soups, that Andrzejs wife organized for us. After 3 portions I asked to taste from this famous vodka now ans so the game started with two shots for each German jetfighter pilot.


    The Wyborova is served ice cold from the freezer and tasted excellent.



    The battle went on and we stationed the bottle near the table.



    My red nose “ace” Schwalbe reached the first Fortress and Andrzej get some trouble with the P51 escort fighters.



    The deadly MG fire from many firing positions of the nearby flying Fortress combo caused a smoke damage and one of my engines produced a smoke trail.

    Andrzej get into close combat but overlapped the target.
    Those Schwalbes were though to fly.



    The Boom card stroke my wingman!



    Outnumbered and outgunned the combined firepower of the Fortresses knocked my jetfighter out of the skies.



    24 hitpoints were too much.

    We thought about a bonus, that each Schwalbe would draw two damage tokens per gunner hit and chooses one, due to the high speed.



    We scored 31 hitpoints at the green B17.

    Not enough.

    With this incredible speed it’s hard to get in close firing range and score hits.




    The second B17 was undamaged.

    You have around 40 percent of zero damages in the “D” damage deck. If you hit, it’s devastating.

    An unsuccessful first test run, but we had fun and calm our displeasure with a few Vodka shots.



    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  2. #2

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    One point we changed for the second run was the use of the normal curves of the “E” deck as a pre-maneuver.

    Those curves are not that tight.



    This time we played without P51 escort, because Slavek and his boys had to go home because it was late at night.

    We started in a close formation and the first collision between the “Luftwaffe finest” was solved with a lucky zero damage from the “C”deck.



    Fortunately one of our Schwalbes immediately gained a climb token so that we could stay in a close formation and attack the Fortresses.
    My brave wingman catched the first welcome fire from the enemy gunners.

    Nice gesture comrade!



    Our response was heavy. 30 hitpoints and a fire damage.

    That’s the way a mission has to go.



    Two Immelmanns later, Andrzej closed in for the G version while I try to finish off of the F version.



    The curse of Boom-Boom stroke again an Andrzej exploded again - not before he dealt out a last final and devastating blow to the silver Fortress!



    Some curving maneuvers later I catched the green B17 and shot her down.

    That was for you, comrade.



    Nice hits!



    I had my trouble to close in for the silver Fortress. Maybe it would be better to use the speed - turn around - and start a new run versus the enemy bomber, instead of maneuvering close to it and try to get in a good shooting position.

    Massive gunfire ended my flight again.



    That’s what you get if you mess with two USAAF B17 Fortresses.



    We finished off the Vodka and discussed how to improve the jetfighter maneuvers and how to attack heavy bomber formations with jetfighters.

    Andrzej proposed to use only the slow straight maneuver from the “E” deck to push the regular maneuvers, but I had my doubts, that this would make curves on the table impossible.

    Maybe we try it this way and give the Schwalbe back the tight turns from the used “R” deck.

    At 2am the bottle of Vodka was empty and the Polish/German jetfighter test pilot team went for their beds.

    A remarkable project and I hope we can host an interesting jetfighter mission at Summer Con 2016.

    (…has Ladinek a freezer in his shop?)

    Last edited by Marechallannes; 01-27-2016 at 10:51.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  3. #3

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    Fine AAR! I added to the list of mission


  4. #4

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    Oh, so cool you posted the memoirs of that heroic battle, Kamerad!!! That was fun, although as a jet newbie I had troubles controlling my kite properly and got two explosions . It was a great game and most of all - we both got some valuable experience in jest fighting!
    Thanks!
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  5. #5

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    As someone who plans to fly an Me-262 in the not-too-distant future, it was great to see how you two tested out the various deck combinations. Thanks for the lovely tutorial, lads!

    Klarer always tastes yummy right out of the freezer

    All the best,
    Matt

  6. #6

    Thumbs up

    Well done Andrzej & Sven!
    Interesting to be a Jet Test pilot to say the least.

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  7. #7

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    Great AAR! Love the way the double-deck movement worked. A brilliant solution. Oh, and the spirits looked tasty, too. Potatoes are one of the world's finest creations.

  8. #8

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    Reading "A Higher Call", the German pilot, Franz Stigler, described attacking B-17s by diving on them from above at high speed, putting a burst of fire into the center of the fuselage where the main wing spars crossed, and continuing the dive past the bomber as it folded up like a crumpled wad of paper.

    Using this attack, the dorsal turret would be the only guns that could hit him, if they saw him coming. He would usually catch them by surprise, and the 30mm rounds would destroy the main spars, which would fold the wings up over the top of the plane.

    I don't know how you would represent this in WoG. Perhaps you could use Stuka vertical dive cards?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    Possibly. And the closing speed of the 262s made it difficult for the electric turrets to track... harder to hit? Additionally, the 30mm cannons, though throwing some serious weight around, were relatively inaccurate due to low muzzle velocity and short barrels. They'd cause some serious damage, but maybe only at short range.

  10. #10

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    Probably not necessary given the length of a jets dive card - make it an over dive and he's gone on the next card - does he get +1 for shooting on a dive like in WW1 ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Probably not necessary given the length of a jets dive card - make it an over dive and he's gone on the next card - does he get +1 for shooting on a dive like in WW1 ?
    Nah Dave you get a +1 for the Vodka shot, after that its down in 1



    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  12. #12

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    Seriously a great exhibition of what both the B17 and Me 262 are/ were capable of.


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  13. #13

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    A very interesting AAR, Sven! Many thanks to Andrzej and you for trying these experiments.

  14. #14

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    A very interesting read.
    You guys will have it all sorted out before I ever get any Me-262 I am sure


    The vodka at least helped with the pain, right ?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    The vodka at least helped with the pain, right ?
    Good vodka does more than that...

  16. #16

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    I like the double card solution, that's a good one. Controlling the planes is a lot harder w/ cards than it seems it should be, at least it is for me.
    It's nice to see folks getting together and having a good time. Always a good thing.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    As someone who plans to fly an Me-262 in the not-too-distant future, it was great to see how you two tested out the various deck combinations. Thanks for the lovely tutorial, lads!

    Klarer always tastes yummy right out of the freezer

    All the best,
    Matt
    hey matt
    if its a selling point weve got a freezer at dreadfully good games.........just sayin

  18. #18

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    very interesting and insightfull aar sven! i look forward to seeing more of your and andys research.

    from what i understand the 262 wasnt much in the turning game in a dogfight because of its great speed.

    one thing you hit on that i think needs to be addressed is that allied gunners should have a harder time hitting faster a/c because of their speed. i recall reading memoirs that mention how much harder it was to bring guns to bear on the jets and get hits. as the game is, as long as its within range and in the firing arc its just as easy to hit a 262 as it is to hit a cr42!!! were the firing range longer it would be more telling on slower a/c as theyd remain in range longer. in hate to even go there, but maybe a diceroll should be added for faster a/c to see if the gunner can get a successful shot at them whilst theyre within range.

    the vodka looked good!!! reminds me of back in the day when stolichnaya was my drink of choice (at least i think it does)!

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Reading "A Higher Call", the German pilot, Franz Stigler, described attacking B-17s by diving on them from above at high speed, putting a burst of fire into the center of the fuselage where the main wing spars crossed, and continuing the dive past the bomber as it folded up like a crumpled wad of paper.

    Using this attack, the dorsal turret would be the only guns that could hit him, if they saw him coming. He would usually catch them by surprise, and the 30mm rounds would destroy the main spars, which would fold the wings up over the top of the plane.

    I don't know how you would represent this in WoG. Perhaps you could use Stuka vertical dive cards?
    the radio operator might be able to get a shot in on such an attacker as well depending on his angle of attack (ie more from the front or stern). if timed right no gunner would be able to get a shot (ie attacker comes into firing range directly over top of the turret {they couldnt shoot straight up}) but itd be a 1 in a million attack.

    if anybody remembers "b-17 queen of the skies" they had just this sort of attack.

  20. #20

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    Wow! Wish I was there. Hope to see you both this year. Still planning on Aug. for the trip out. I can't wait.

    Thomas

  21. #21

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    August - that sounds good, Tom.



    Thank you for the nice comments, comrades.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  22. #22

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    Andrzej, I came to the result that a simple additional slow straight from the E-deck would be enough to simulate the higher speed of the Me262.

    Beside this the Me262 should get a bonus when getting in range of a "gunner" with a fast speed maneuver.


    To keep it simple: Maybe the Schwalbe should randomly ignore 50% of A-damage tokens (round up) and each B-damage token should be downgraded to an A-damage.

    A-damage
    1x = 0x
    2x = 1x
    3x = 1x
    4x = 2x
    etc...

    So if a Schwalbe get multiple A-damage by passing two Fortresses we do not need to take two A-damage tokens for each hit and ignore one of them.

    You opinion.


    This is how the additional slow straight E-deck maneuver works:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails M262 Manöver.jpg  
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 03-15-2016 at 03:28.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  23. #23

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    ...better pictures:

    a) sharp curve fast speed

    b) wide curve fast speed

    c) straight slow speed

    I think you idea with using only an additional staight represents the flying ability of the Me262 very good instead of using additional E-deck curves.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0381.jpg   IMG_0383.jpg   IMG_0384.jpg  
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  24. #24

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    How close are you to agreement on the manoeuvre deck guys? I'm thinking I could get a deck or three drawn up in time for Prague, incorporating the initial straight in the cards.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  25. #25

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    Hi chaps,
    Thanks for your work, Sven. It looks very interesting.
    It is just a day ahead of mine. I made some calculations + measurements on my own and have some 262 house rules written on a sheet of paper.
    Hope to find time to post them with pics tonight after hours.
    Yes Steve, we should have a fixed set of rules before Prague.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  26. #26

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    I know that our Czech comrades fought a battle with the Schwalbes, too.

    Maybe we can exchange the experiences.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  27. #27

    Default

    I know that our Czech comrades fought a battle with the Schwalbes, too.

    Maybe we can exchange the experiences.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  28. #28

    Default 262 House Rules

    Sven,

    here are the 262 House Rules of mine. I do not state they are final or the ONES to be used.
    I compared the max speeds: Mustang/Schwalbe: 700/870 km/h. => Me 262 max speed is 124% of the Mustang's.
    Calculations: when a Mustang moves forward at high speed it moves forward 14 cm on a table. => Schwalbe should be able to move app. 17 cm at the same time.

    So - here we go:

    Starting positions:



    The Mustang flies forward at high speed:



    The Schwalbe starts: But to reflect it's speed advantage I place the plane card horizontally in front of the plane's base and move the base forward up to the edge of the card. Just like that:



    Then I play the straight high speed H card in a regular manner.



    This way Schwalbe covers 17 cm distance.



    The same kind of maneuver (plane card vertically in front of the plane's base) should be played before playing any other H deck maneuver card.

    This way Schwalbe is fast and less versatile than enemy fighters, yet can get a speed advantage.
    Benefits? I do not have to mix different decks and I get the feeling of the proper comparison between those two main combatants.

    At the end of the day the rules are:

    1. Maneuver deck: H deck with a plane card against the base to shift the plane's base before playing the maneuver card.

    2. Risks using high speed: After every high speed maneuver 262 pilot draws a single A damage counter and applies ONLY special damage ones (reshuffle others):
    a) engine damage - from that moment H cards are played normally, without using vertical card "in front" of the base (no other effects),
    b) fire - from that moment H cards are played normally, without using vertical card "in front" of the base plus fire effects,
    c) smoke - from that moment H cards are played normally, without using vertical card "in front" of the base plus smoke effects.
    d) explosion.

    3. 262 climb rate is: 2.

    4. Harder to hit: Until the "card in front of the base" is played, 262 is harder to hit by bomber defence fire. To reflect that, use Overdive targeting official rule (RAP).

    So we get a really fast, hard to hit terrifying fighter, with some risks to fly at higher speed.

    My 2 cents.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  29. #29

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    Harder to hit

    Of course we can use the overdive rule, but rember how often our Schwalbes were hit while passing the Fortresses. So we have to draw for each hit two counters and throw one away.


    For the risk of using higher speed:

    A damage deck has 72 counters with 11 special damages.

    There is a 15% chance for engine damage per move.

    If 4 x Me262 executes 20 maneuvers in the misson, the chance is really high that all Schwalbes end with an engine damage sooner then later.

    Question is if this really represents the engine failure of some Me262 fighters in a combat situation?


    For movement:

    I measured it again an found out, that the the use of a slow E deck straight makes 17,5 cm of movement for the Me262 (if you use a R deck for Schwalbe movement).

    Question here: Wouldn't it be easier to use one additional movement card instead of a crossways plane card for movement. Maybe we get really problems when planes overlap and we have to maneuver with the plane card.

    The E-deck straight could be easy copied for use and we don't have to mix decks.


    It's playability versus accuracy.


    Maybe we should keep it more simple to save time.


    For myself I'll be busy with management of the bombers. If you manage the game, I can live with an H-deck, plane card extension and overdive rule, too.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0440.jpg  
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 03-30-2016 at 01:39.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  30. #30

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    Another point we have to discuss:

    This is a 6 player mission at the moment, right.

    4 x Me262 (4 gamers)
    2 x P51 (2 gamers)
    3 x B17G (host controlled)


    What about the bomber formation.

    Distances to each other?

    Different altitude or only different climb markers?

    Formation?
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  31. #31

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    For Prague I'm using 6 B17's. No 1 at height, 2 + 3 1 peg lower front corner in line with rear corner. No 4 central and behind no 1 but 2 pegs lower than 1. 5 + 6 same as 2+ 3 but again 1 peg lower than 4. I've worked out a very simplified box fire for chits. This is less than if you fired each gun individually. Takes into account abstractly gunners not pointing at incoming aircraft, time to realign, and fire etc. Speeds up damage and not having to work out 20 plus gun arcs of damage separately.
    Over diving aircraft reduce damage when fired at.

    At some stage I'll have this tabulated so it makes sense to all not just me.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  32. #32

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    I found the Idea very interesting of using a speed extender (like the straight of the E-deck) for the Me262.
    Together with the E-straight I would prefer using the T-deck as base maneuver deck, because the R-deck would make
    a Me262 more maneuverable than a P51.
    Furthermore the difference between the fast and slow arrows on the T-deck is less then on the R-deck.

    Carlo (Mad Charly) has made an extender for the Me262 and Me163 that are really great but I had some own ideas on this.
    I used the E straight arrow to extend normal maneuvers and the stall of the T-deck to extend steep maneuvers.

    This is how my extender card looks like (I have used the back side of Carlo's card. I hope you don't mind Carlo.)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you like this Idea than I could upload my Speed Extender Card (with the correct size) to the file area.

    Sascha
    Last edited by Sashdash; 08-23-2016 at 22:36.

  33. #33

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    Default

    But does it catch fire when you accelerate In game terms going from slow to fast without a blank in between would work. the 262 sure liked to burn when you were heavy handed with the gas.
    Looks like you made a fun little plane, would love to see an official one at some point.

  34. #34

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    Interesting concept and a really good report on what to use or not use with the 262. You had a couple of good battles and a good bottle.

  35. #35

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    Very nice, I mean the Vodka, I keep a gallon in the freezer at all times. My wife if Russian what can I say.

  36. #36

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    Also nice pictures and game.

  37. #37

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    Where did you get the ME 262 models?

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future Pilot View Post
    Where did you get the ME 262 models?
    Excellent source: armamentinminiature website. AIM. David Schmid who runs the business makes superb resin minis.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future Pilot View Post
    Where did you get the ME 262 models?
    I got mine from Shapeways. Kampfflieger makes some nice models. Just have a look here.
    He sells them in different qualities. From Strong & Flexible to Extreme Detail.

    You can have a look at my first try painting them in this thread.
    These are the lowest quality (Strong & Flexible).

    Regards,
    Sascha

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Reading "A Higher Call", the German pilot, Franz Stigler, described attacking B-17s by diving on them from above at high speed, putting a burst of fire into the center of the fuselage where the main wing spars crossed, and continuing the dive past the bomber as it folded up like a crumpled wad of paper.

    Using this attack, the dorsal turret would be the only guns that could hit him, if they saw him coming. He would usually catch them by surprise, and the 30mm rounds would destroy the main spars, which would fold the wings up over the top of the plane.

    I don't know how you would represent this in WoG. Perhaps you could use Stuka vertical dive cards?



    it would also be nice to be able the replicate what expert vermot pilots employed. attack head on in a half barrel roll and yank the stick back to dive away from the formation before one comes into the range of most of the formations guns.

  41. #41

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    I got them AIM from Dave they Look very detailed, I am going to paint one as Franz Stigler's and one as Willi Herget's.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future Pilot View Post
    I got them AIM from Dave they Look very detailed, I am going to paint one as Franz Stigler's and one as Willi Herget's.
    Waiting for your pictures with finished model!
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  43. #43

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here are the lines for the cockpit and engines.

  44. #44

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    Here is Willi Herget's ME 262 finished except for the markings.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  45. #45

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    I forgot, Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe symbol was on the bottom of the ME 262's wing?

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future Pilot View Post
    I forgot, Does anyone know if the Luftwaffe symbol was on the bottom of the ME 262's wing?
    Yes, it had the Luftwaffe symbol on its bottom.
    Have a look at this picture https://airandspace.si.edu/sites/def...I-79-13829.jpg
    or at this one https://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt....pg.5894848.jpg
    and here https://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt....pg.5832040.jpg

    Regards,
    Sascha

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashdash View Post
    Yes, it had the Luftwaffe symbol on its bottom.
    Have a look at this picture https://airandspace.si.edu/sites/def...I-79-13829.jpg
    or at this one https://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt....pg.5894848.jpg
    and here https://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt....pg.5832040.jpg

    Regards,
    Sascha
    Thank you I am finished now!

  48. #48

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    Here are my ME 262s battling B-17s
    Click image for larger version. 

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