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Thread: CANCON Simplified Altitude Rules 2016

  1. #1

    Default CANCON Simplified Altitude Rules 2016

    While the basic concept is still "climb gains a peg, dive loses 2 pegs", we have to give supplementary rules for immelmans, landing, taking off etc, and take into account climbing and diving over a long period, where different climb rates become significant.

    I've taken the opportunity to add a 2 new "3 card tricks" to the usual immelman variants (there are 3 in the Rules As Written), overdive, landing and taking off, and to make play more exciting after drawing the dreaded "BOOM" card, by allowing the possibility of getting down safely, and also "playing dead" and coming back by surprise.

    Here they are:

    Movement in the Vertical

    Climb – short straight in red – gain a peg
    Dive – long straight in red – lose 2 pegs

    3-card tricks

    Immelman -
    Straight – Reversal – Straight :
    A course-reversal at the same height.

    Half-loop -
    Straight – Reversal (go up one peg) – Stall (short straight) :
    A half-loop upwards

    Split-S -
    Stall (short straight) – Reversal (go down one peg) – Straight :
    A half-loop downwards, also called a “split S”

    Overdive -
    Stall – Dive (lose 2 pegs) – Straight (lose 2 pegs)
    Note: 2 steeps so take an A damage (except for SE5a, Pfalz D.III , Phoenix and Spads)

    Wingover -
    Stall - Reversal(lose 1 peg) - Dive (lose 2 pegs)

    Spin :
    Turn(any turn card) - Reversal(lose 1 peg) – Dive(lose 2 pegs).
    Retain these 3 cards. Draw from A deck at end of turn. If not 0 damage, play the same cards next turn, Ignore the damage - including special damage – regardless, and put the drawn card at the bottom of the deck.


    Continuous Climb
    Straight – Climb – Straight -
    Place 2 “climb counters” on each of the 3 cards. When you've accumulated enough climb counters (varying from 2-6 depending on aircraft type) trade them in for 2 pegs increase in altitude. As soon as you cease doing consecutive continuous climbs, discard all remaining climb counters.

    Continuous Dive
    Straight – Dive - Straight,
    Must start and end with a dive of some kind (wingover, dive, overdive), and loses 1-4 pegs per card (up to 1 for large bombers, 2 for fragile aircraft, 3 for most fighters, 4 for Se5a, Pfalz D.III, Phoenix and Spads)

    Taking Off
    Stall – Straight – Climb (gain a peg)
    Must be on the ground, with no obstructions anywhere in the move

    Landing
    Dive – Straight - Stall
    To land successfully, you must be at level 1 or 2, with no ground obstructions anywhere in the move.
    .
    Forced Down
    As soon as the aircraft is “forced down” (by a BOOM card, or exceeding its points) it must go out of control, but may go into a spin first – followed by going out of control when the spin stops.

    Out of Control
    If Out of Control the aircraft may not fire except observer's guns, It is set to have 0 damage points, and of the three cards selected each turn, one must be a stall, another a dive. Do not tell opponents that you're forced down, just do the moves. Also note – you'll have to play consecutive steep maneuvers, taking an “A” class damage each time. Go over the aircraft's points and the aircraft breaks up in mid-air.

  2. #2

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    Great stuff, Zoe! Thanks, as always.

  3. #3

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    These rules are fantastic, great work as usual.

  4. #4

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    They're consistent with a 1/1200 ground scale (which is consistent with turn rates and firing range), a 2 sec per card time scale, and 20 metre height per peg. Each peg is 1/2 " (12.5mm) high, so they're a little short, but not by much.

    It simplifies bomb dropping too. In the first card, the bomb drops 1 peg, then on the next card, another 3, then on the next card, another 5 etc. 1000 ft is about 12 pegs, so by multiplying RulesAsWritten (RAW) ceilings by 12, you get true ceiling.

    Continuous climb and continuous dive use essentially the same mechanics as the RAW and in practice are only used in the initial stages, or to leave a dogfight, climb to a commanding position, then swoop. Or Run Away!!!!

    The best thing about these rules is that getting a BOOM card or exceeding damage is often just the start of an exciting stage of the game for the victim, trying to get on the ground - preferably not behind enemy lines - and make a landing that can be walked away from. Virtually all WWI aces had been forced down like this at least once in their careers.

    Though sneaky players have been known to pretend to be Out Of Control, coming back in when their opponent breaks off... as happened in WWI too.
    Last edited by Zoe Brain; 01-18-2017 at 07:57.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Out of Control
    If Out of Control the aircraft may not fire except observer's guns, It is set to have 0 damage points, and of the three cards selected each turn, one must be a stall, another a dive. Do not tell opponents that you're forced down, just do the moves. Also note – you'll have to play consecutive steep maneuvers, taking an “A” class damage each time. Go over the aircraft's points and the aircraft breaks up in mid-air.
    Love the rules, Zoe, consider them borrowed. A quick question, however. Why allow the observer to fire while the a/c is OOC? I would think that, as said observer, I would be doing everything in my power to not fall out.


  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    . Virtually all WWI aces had been forced down like this at least once in their careers.
    .
    Cue Algy, returning from another Offensive Patrol muddy to the armpits and smelling of smoke and singed hair.

  7. #7

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    Thanks for posting these here, Zoe - I think I've seen a variation of them before here somewhere that you posted...

    Like Chris, I plan to poach 'em and start playing with my mates with these - it gives a bit more leeway than the regular altitude rules we've been using...and I really like the peg aspect rather than the climb counters aspect.

    Here's to a great CANCON

    All the best,
    Matt

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlgyLacey View Post
    Cue Algy, returning from another Offensive Patrol muddy to the armpits and smelling of smoke and singed hair.
    ...after (hopefully) having been entertained by the lads in the trenches!

  9. #9

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    I saved your rules for further use the other night.
    Been having trouble posting (or even accessing the site) lately.
    Thanks for posting.

  10. #10

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    Does this treat all planes the same? I mean using this do all planes now have the same climb rate?

  11. #11

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Does this treat all planes the same? I mean using this do all planes now have the same climb rate?
    Tactically, yes. When an aircraft does a sudden maneuver like a loop, sustained climb rate doesn't figure.

    Now when it's doing a sustained climb at best speed and pitch, yes it does - hence the continuous climb rules. But a "vertical break", nope.

    Something I should have mentioned - aircraft with a climb rate over 6 can't do tactical climbs. The only way a heavily laden bomber can gain altitude is very carefully and slowly, in a continuous climb. Unlike a fighter, it can't suddenly trade speed for height in a sudden climb.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybear View Post
    These will help a lot
    I've been using these in one form or another for a while now... love them. They can be used in their simplest form, but will also support some of additional complexity: strong divers, stable aircraft, etc.

  14. #14

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    Zoe,

    If you don't mind I have a few questions. Should I post them here or is there a better way to address them?

  15. #15

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    Hi Ken.

    Zoe is certainly the expert, and i don't wish to step on any toes, but I'd be happy to do what I can to help.

  16. #16

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    Thank you. I appreciate the help
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Movement in the Vertical

    Climb – short straight in red – gain a peg
    Dive – long straight in red – lose 2 pegs
    This is regardless of a planes rate of climb. Except of course for the larger bombers?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Forced Down
    As soon as the aircraft is “forced down” (by a BOOM card, or exceeding its points) it must go out of control, but may go into a spin first – followed by going out of control when the spin stops.

    Out of Control
    If Out of Control the aircraft may not fire except observer's guns, It is set to have 0 damage points, and of the three cards selected each turn, one must be a stall, another a dive. Do not tell opponents that you're forced down, just do the moves. Also note – you'll have to play consecutive steep maneuvers, taking an “A” class damage each time. Go over the aircraft's points and the aircraft breaks up in mid-air.
    I know in another post Zeo said you can spin then go our of control. But how does one not crash with "Out of Control"? Or is simply getting to the ground before your points run out count as survived?

  17. #17

    Default hey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Zoe,

    If you don't mind I have a few questions. Should I post them here or is there a better way to address them?
    hey Ken, Danny here, I use Zoe's rules and love them. Let me know how your conversations go with her

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Thank you. I appreciate the help


    This is regardless of a planes rate of climb. Except of course for the larger bombers?
    Yes.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    I know in another post Zeo said you can spin then go our of control. But how does one not crash with "Out of Control"? Or is simply getting to the ground before your points run out count as survived?
    You can "spin" as a means of escape (unless a BOOM result, others will not know your damage), and the spin/ooc mechanic gives you the opportunity to survive a forced landing brought on by a BOOM card.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    You can "spin" as a means of escape (unless a BOOM result, others will not know your damage), and the spin/ooc mechanic gives you the opportunity to survive a forced landing brought on by a BOOM card.
    So you cannot recover from an ooc.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    So you cannot recover from an ooc.
    As I understand it, no. One may spin voluntarily to escape, though there's always the chance that one won't be able to recover before tearing the wings off their kite... but once "Forced Down" (due to a BOOM card or exceeding the damage limit on your aircraft) and OOC, the kite is heading earthward.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    As I understand it, no. One may spin voluntarily to escape, though there's always the chance that one won't be able to recover before tearing the wings off their kite... but once "Forced Down" (due to a BOOM card or exceeding the damage limit on your aircraft) and OOC, the kite is heading earthward.
    Exactly.

    Advanced players will sometimes sham being crippled like that, then turn back on their attackers. But Advanced players will never assume that an opposing plane behaving like that is out of the fight, and will follow it down, making sure. Really Advanced players will know that that is often a recipe for letting another opponent on your tail, or at lower levels, leading you into a flak trap, so will be wary of doing it. Had MvR not been suffering the effects of a previous head wound, he would not have made this mistake.

    By some relatively simple mechanics, certainly more simple than the RAW, you can add more verisimilitude and even accuracy to the game. Those who draw a BOOM card can still have a fun time struggling to make a landing they can walk away from, they're not just "out of the game".

  23. #23

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    is the firing, range wise, the same using these altitude rules.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    is the firing, range wise, the same using these altitude rules.
    If I remember correctly, Zoe's rules allow for shooting at up to two pegs distance... 0-1 peg at full range, 2 pegs at 1/2 range.

    My group have extended it to 0-1 pegs at full range and 2-3 pegs at 1/2 range.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    If I remember correctly, Zoe's rules allow for shooting at up to two pegs distance... 0-1 peg at full range, 2 pegs at 1/2 range.

    My group have extended it to 0-1 pegs at full range and 2-3 pegs at 1/2 range.
    I need to look at the existing rules to see how these compare.


    Are the aircraft ceilings still the same or is there a new limit?

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    I need to look at the existing rules to see how these compare.


    Are the aircraft ceilings still the same or is there a new limit?
    The ceilings in the RAW are in 1000s of ft. Using the simplified rules, a peg is about 20m - 60 ft. So multiply by 16.

    Practically, shapeways and nexus/ares models will stay steady at an altitude above base of 8, and with care, up to 12. This covers a vertical space of over 500 ft, good enough in a dogfight. Going after escapees diving away just requires some marking of those aircraft where the "baseline" is lower than the majority.

    These two pictures, taken at different stages of the game, show a balloon at a relatively high altitude rapidly descending until the dogfight is well above it, rather than well below.




    If you look carefully, you'll see a black D20 at the edge of the table in the far background, which indicated the "baseline" altitude above the actual ground. It started at 20, so the aircraft at 4 pegs were at altitude 24, the balloon at 12 pegs at altitude 32 - about 2000 ft. By the end, the baseline was at 0, and the true height of aircraft was shown, up to 12 in one case.

    One advantage of this system is you get realistic AA gun ranges and altitudes, and realistic bomb-dropping mechanics.

    For example, each card represents 2 seconds. A bomb will drop 1 peg in one card, then another 3 in the next, then 5 in the next... ( 9.8 m/sec/sec rounded to 10 m/sec/sec ignoring air resistance, velocity down 0 at the beginning, 20 at the end, average velocity 10 m/sec x 2 secs = 20 metres, so 1 peg , then 20 at the beginning, 40 at the end, average 30 x2 = 60m so 3 pegs, etc) Bombing from 2000 ft, level 24, 1+3+5+7+9 BOOM, so 5 cards.

    Where the system falls down is in firing in a dive, firing in a climb, firing with swivel-mounted weapons... the "1 ruler at -1,0,+1, half distance at -2 and +2" works well only for fixed guns in level flight. For fixed guns firing upwards at 15 degrees, it should be " 1 ruler at 0, +1, +2, half distance at -1 and +3". When in a dive or climb, adjust by +1 or -1 accordingly.

  27. #27

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    Do you have, anywhere, the rules all together, Google Docs, MS Word? The rules above, maneuvers, climbing/diving, etc... The bomb dropping, firing, etc?

  28. #28

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    Hi Ken. There are a number of really nice looking reference sheets located in the files section, and I have a version of Zoe's (and some of Flash/Dave's) house rules in .pdf form... but I won't be able to get my hands on them until this weekend. I'll noodle about here for a bit and see if I can't find the docs to which I referred.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Hi Ken. There are a number of really nice looking reference sheets located in the files section, and I have a version of Zoe's (and some of Flash/Dave's) house rules in .pdf form... but I won't be able to get my hands on them until this weekend. I'll noodle about here for a bit and see if I can't find the docs to which I referred.
    Fantasic. Thank you.

  30. #30

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    Though these do not include Zoe's "Simplified CanCon Rules" (those will have to wait until this weekend), here are links to the reference cards I mentioned:


  31. #31

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    I went through this a few weeks ago. I printed them and scanned the scenarios then put them in a book I carry with me. The reference/cheat sheets work great. Much easier that fiddling through the rules.

  32. #32

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    Agreed. I'll get my hands on the house rules this weekend.

  33. #33

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    Those are great references, Chris.
    I have similar ones from other sources but these are really clear and concise.

  34. #34

    Default looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Agreed. I'll get my hands on the house rules this weekend.
    thanks for all the work looking forward to seeing the rest of, these are great additions

  35. #35

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    Question on Spin:
    Spin
    Turn(any turn card) - Reversal(lose 1 peg) – Dive(lose 2 pegs).
    Retain these 3 cards. Draw from A deck at end of turn. If not 0 damage, play the same cards next turn, Ignore the damage - including special damage – regardless, and put the drawn card at the bottom of the deck.
    To restate the above:
    A) If I understand correctly you may go into a spin voluntarily.
    B) At the end of each turn you draw a damage card.
    C) Do not apply damage
    D1) If you draw a zero damage you may plan your next turn as usual.
    D2) If you draw a damage you must repeat the same three moves.
    E) Damages cards are returned to the deck with affecting the plane.

    Is that right?

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Question on Spin:


    To restate the above:
    A) If I understand correctly you may go into a spin voluntarily.
    B) At the end of each turn you draw a damage card.
    C) Do not apply damage
    D1) If you draw a zero damage you may plan your next turn as usual.
    D2) If you draw a damage you must repeat the same three moves.
    E) Damages cards are returned to the deck with(out) affecting the plane.

    Is that right?
    Yes. You could instead pick chits, roll a die etc as long as there's a random factor involved making spins not entirely risk-free at low altitudes. The use of the A deck is just a convenient random number generator.

  37. #37

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    Will be using these. Excellent!

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop33 View Post
    Will be using these. Excellent!

    We've been using these so long I'd forgotten they were house rules.

    They work.



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